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Thief on the cross gospel?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by TallMan, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    Was the one that said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" saved?I ask because I've met many who say they are saved because of these few verses.
     
  2. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    Be with me in paradise certainly does not sound like Hell.
     
  3. Elias

    Elias New Member

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    Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.he was the fist one interred paradise.
     
  4. Learning

    Learning New Member

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    I believe he was because he accepted Jesus as being Jesus and because Jesus told him him he would be in paradise.
     
  5. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus immediately before the darkness - the same time of the dialogue reported by Luke:-“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness . .. ”(Matthew 27:43-45)“they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”(Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom?Meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand!).Or is it more reasonable to say that the thief was speaking mockingly"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"If the thief was sincere, this would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time when he represtented man's sin (for which there can be no comfort.But what of the prophesy:-"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21) ?Why does Jesus say "today you shall be with me in paradise" not just "you shall be with me in paradise"?No man enters into heaven until Jesus returns!"no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor. 15:22-23)The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried that day; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden.Most importantly, the New Covenant didn't begin until the Spirit was given at Pentecost, making people born again / sons of God, temples of the Holy Spirit. People are being taught to reject the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of what Jesus says to a thief in Luke - sounds like a thief's gospel to me!
     
  6. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    (TallMan;40247)
    People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus immediately before the darkness - the same time of the dialogue reported by Luke:-“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness . .. ”(Matthew 27:43-45)“they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”(Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom?Meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand!).Or is it more reasonable to say that the thief was speaking mockingly"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"If the thief was sincere, this would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time when he represtented man's sin (for which there can be no comfort.But what of the prophesy:-"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21) ?Why does Jesus say "today you shall be with me in paradise" not just "you shall be with me in paradise"?No man enters into heaven until Jesus returns!"no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor. 15:22-23)The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried that day; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden.Most importantly, the New Covenant didn't begin until the Spirit was given at Pentecost, making people born again / sons of God, temples of the Holy Spirit. People are being taught to reject the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of what Jesus says to a thief in Luke - sounds like a thief's gospel to me!
    The thief was saved. what Jesus said was "Verily I say unto thee today, Shalt thou be with Me in paradise". The KJ version put the commer in the wrong place, because Jesus didn't go to paradise that day He went to hell, the place of torment.Luke 16: 23--28. The rich man was in torment.Jesus went to hell first.Acts 2: 27, Ephesians 4: 8--10, 1 Peter 3: 18--19. Then Jesus was quickened in the Spirit, and to preach to the people in hell and went to Abrahams bosom and preached there. Then at His ressurection took them to heaven."Abrahams bosom" has the same Greek meaning as paradise.Acording to the Greek, Paradise means " Garden, a park of persian Kings".It also means "A place of Total blessedness, Future happiness". And this is what Jesus said to the thief. in 2 corinthians 12: 4. Paul said he was caught up into "Paradise". This is the same Greek word that Jesus said to the thief.
     
  7. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    (Alanforchrist;40272)
    The thief was saved.
    So Matthew & Mark did miss this important point, this thief understood more than the disciples and the prophecy failed???Assuming he will be in heaven, does this mean people today don't need to receive the Spirit like the disciples later did?
     
  8. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    Tallman,How do we know what "today" means to a dead person, a disembodied soul? Without my body to experience/sense change, by what standard could our soul gauge "today"? Some have supposed that from the view of the dead, the rest of history unfolds and they reach resurrection/judgement at the same "time" as all the rest of us. In that sense (if that is true) for that thief, this would be one way we could say it would be "today" in Heaven for him.As Matthew and Mark differing, they differ on other points as well and that there is no attempt to "correct" their stories we can only believe this is the same story told from several different views rather than a question of someone getting it wrong or being misinformed. Nothing we are given suggest that any of the Gospel writers beside John was present to be able to hear what the thieves said. As Luke is the only writer to specify how he went about collecting the information for his book and John is silent on the matter, we must presume Luke got it from someone that heard it. If Luke’s witness for this exchange was not John or Mary, and the account differed from what John heard we would expect an objection from John. From several accounts we have reason to believe both John and Mary were close enough to have heard both men. We have no objection from John to what Luke wrote, so the account must reflect what the one thief said. Mark wrote first, both Luke and Matthew copied portions of Mark. We don’t know Mark’s sources as he did not reveal them like Luke. He could merely be writing what someone told him happened and that person either did not tell Mark what the other thief said or they did not hear it. We can be certain not everyone witnessing these events would hear every thing that was said by every person there. If a person only heard the one bad thief but could see the other yelling (and both looking at Jesus) then it would be natural to assume they were both saying the same things to Jesus. Each writer also wrote for different purposes and audience, and so they emphasize different points. Mark does not elaborate on exactly what was said; only that what was directed at Jesus was bad. Luke does not show the good thief really directing anything at Jesus, merely chiding the bad thief in Jesus defense and humbly asking his God for mercy. Matthew copies Mark on this point and skips over the exact exchange. Paper is a limited valuable commodity of the day, so one had to careful or you would run out of space before you get the message you wanted to send if you mentioned everything. If you got as verbose as some of us (me) tend to do here today you would run out of paper before you finished. There is nothing wrong or in error in looking at the Gospels in that light. It does not make the Bible in error or uninspired and certainly does not make one Gospel writer right and another wrong. They are both right.Receiving the Spirit helps us live our lives here and now. This man in question was dying, very close to death. But to be more direct in answering your question; yes every one needs the Spirit, He helps us live. The question of who God will save however, just like this thief, is in His Hands. That is why the Church has always said both Heaven and Hell will be filled with men of all faiths (and even no faiths - atheist).
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with Him, cast the same in His teeth."One of these thieves mocked Jesus while the other did not. It is written in Luke 23:39-40; "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Him, saying, "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." [39] "But the other answering rebuked him, saying "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation" [40] "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss." [41]Luke 23:42-43; "And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." [42] "And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise." [43] 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
     
  10. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    Being forgiven is so simple that many stumble over its simplicity. Is Jesus a liar? He told the man "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." There was no "heaven" for saints in God to go to at that time. There was Paradise and hell--separated by whatever kept them apart. Jesus went to Paradise, and when He left there he took the saints with him. Their resurrection is recorded in the scriptures.
     
  11. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    Jon-MarcI took the OP question to be asking not exactly where the thief went, but why he got to go there. We can all pretty much agree that Paradise is not Hell and that is a simple no brainer. So I took the OP as asking how it is possible the thief is "saved" outside the normal/traditional view or perhaps in this case evangelical/fundamentalist view of salvation, especially the receive the Holy Ghost part.
     
  12. Beano

    Beano New Member

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    I think this might add some light its from Bullingers appendix no 164Kevin164. THE "OTHERS" CRUCIFIED WITH THE LORD (Matt. 27:38 and Luke 23:32).Mislead by tradition and the ignorance of Scripture on the part of medieval painters, it is the general belief that only two were crucified with the Lord. But Scripture does not say so. It states that there were two "thieves" (Gr. lestai = robbers, Matt. 27:38. Mark 15:27); and that there were two "malefactors" (Gr. kakouryoi, Luke 23:32). It is also recorded that both the robbers reviled Him (Matt. 27:44. Mark 15:32); while in Luke 23:39 only one of the malefactors "railed on Him", and "the other rebuked him" for so doing (v. 40). If there were only two, this is a real discrepancy; and there is another, for the two malefactors were "led with Him to be put to death" (Luke 23:32), and when they were come to Calvary, "they" then and there "crucified Him and the malefactors, one on the right hand and the other on the left" (v. 33). But the other discrepancy is according to Matthew, that after the parting of the garments, and after "sitting down they watched Him there", that "THEN" were there two robbers crucified with Him, one on the right hand and the other on the left" (Matt. 27:38. Mark 15:27). The two malefactors had already been "led with Him" and were therefore crucified "with Him", and before the two robbers were brought. The first two (malefactors) who were "led with Him" were placed one on either side. When the other two (robbers) were brought, much later, they were also similarly placed; so that there were two (one of each) on either side, and the Lord in the midst. The malefactors were therefore the nearer, and being on the inside they could speak to each other better, and the one with the Lord, as recorded (Luke 23:39-43). John's record confirms this, for he speaks only of place, and not of time. He speaks, generally of the fact : "where they crucified Him, and with Him others, two on this side, and that side, and Jesus in the midst" (John 19:8). In Rev. 22:2 we have the same expression in the Greek (enteuthen kai enteuthen), which is accurately rendered "on either side". So it should be rendered here: "and with Him others, on either side". But John further states (19:32, 33) : "then came the soldiers and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with Him. But when they came (Gr. = having come) to Jesus, and saw that He was dead already, they brake not His legs." Had there been only two (one on either side) the soldiers would not have come to the Lord, but would have passed Him, and then turned back again. But they came to Him after they had broken the legs of the first two. There are two words used of the "other" and "others" in John 19:32 and Luke 23:32 (See Ap. 124. 1). In the former passage we read, "they brake the legs of the first and of the other." Here the Greek is allos which is the other (the second) of the two when there are more (see Matt. 10:23; 25:16, 17, 20; 27:61; 28:1. John 18:15, 16; 20:2, 4, 8. and Rev. 17:10). In the latter passage (Luke 23:32) the word is heteros = different (See Ap. 124. 2) : "and others also, two were being led with Him." These were different (*1) from Him with Whom they were led, not different from one another; for they were "in the same condemnation", and "justly", while He had "done nothing amiss" (vv. 40, 41). From this evidence, therefore, it is clear that there were four "others" crucified with the Lord; and thus, on the one hand, there are no "discrepancies", as alleged; while, on the other hand, every word and every expression, in the Greek, gets (and gives) its own exact va 473 lue, and its full significance. To show that we are not without evidence, even from tradition, we may state that there is a "Calvary" to be seen at Ploubezere near Lannion, in the Cotes-du-Nord, Brittany, known as Les Cinq Croix ("The Five Crosses"). There is a high cross in the center, with four lower ones, two on either side. There may be other instances of which we have not heard. "In the Roman Catholic church ... the altar slab or "table" alone is consecrated, and in sign of this are cut in its upper surface five Greek crosses, one in the center and one in each corner ... but the history of the origin and development of this practice is not fully worked out" (Encycl. Brit., 11th (Cambridge) ed., vol. i, pp. 762, 763). This practice may possibly be explained by the subject of this Appendix. (*1) Cp. Matt. 6:21, 24; 8:21; 11:3. Luke 5:7; 6:6; 7:41; 9:56; 14:31; 16:13, 18; 17:34, 35; 18:10; 28:40.
     
  13. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    If we look at Heb 11:4 - Heb 11:39 it tells us of those who were saved from before the Holy Spirit was given. If the Holy Spirit has to be given to be saved how where they saved? The Holy Spirit was not given until the day of Pentecost. We know they where saved as the bible calls them righteous. IMHO these verses are telling us that they were saved because they looked forward to the promised Messiah and believed before He came that He saved them. Because of there faith in this God imputed them righteousness. In other words He credited it to their accounts - in modern terms. I believe that is what happened with the thief on the cross. God credited righteousness to the thief's account. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us there are at least two compartments in hell with a gulf in between: Luk 16:19 - Luk 16:31. On one side of the gulf you had torments where the unsaved dead are and on the other side you had Abraham's bosom which was where the saved dead were. No one could go to heaven until Jesus paid the price by dying and raising again.
     
  14. Sojourner

    Sojourner New Member

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    (TallMan;40224)
    Was the one that said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" saved?I ask because I've met many who say they are saved because of these few verses.
    The thief asked Jesus to remember him.Jesus answer simply means "Okay, I will." It does not mean, as many desire it to mean, that the thief himself went to Paradise with Jesus. It means his life is hidden in Christ as Paul says in Colossians.Moreover, Paradise is to be understood as the Kingdom.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Sojourner;43830)
    The thief asked Jesus to remember him.Jesus answer simply means "Okay, I will." It does not mean, as many desire it to mean, that the thief himself went to Paradise with Jesus. It means his life is hidden in Christ as Paul says in Colossians.Moreover, Paradise is to be understood as the Kingdom.
    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. I dont know where you are getting your info but thats not what I seeand thats not what paradise means amoung several other things it can mean... Heaven orholding place of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradisebut my concordance doesnt mention kingdom at all
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Nyoka;43476)
    If we look at Heb 11:4 - Heb 11:39 it tells us of those who were saved from before the Holy Spirit was given. If the Holy Spirit has to be given to be saved how where they saved? The Holy Spirit was not given until the day of Pentecost. We know they where saved as the bible calls them righteous. IMHO these verses are telling us that they were saved because they looked forward to the promised Messiah and believed before He came that He saved them. Because of there faith in this God imputed them righteousness. In other words He credited it to their accounts - in modern terms. I believe that is what happened with the thief on the cross. God credited righteousness to the thief's account. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us there are at least two compartments in hell with a gulf in between: Luk 16:19 - Luk 16:31. On one side of the gulf you had torments where the unsaved dead are and on the other side you had Abraham's bosom which was where the saved dead were. No one could go to heaven until Jesus paid the price by dying and raising again.
    We just did some threads on this not long ago and I agree with you. In the old days they used sacrafice, a type of Christ (to come), but it only covered up the sins until Christ could die. Christ could promise this thief forgivenessto be given after he legally took his seat at the right hand of God but not until. Paradise can mean a holding place the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
     
  17. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    (kriss;44169)
    We just did some threads on this not long ago and I agree with you. In the old days they used sacrafice, a type of Christ (to come), but it only covered up the sins until Christ could die. Christ could promise this thief forgivenessto be given after he legally took his seat at the right hand of God but not until. Paradise can mean a holding place the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
    I agree kriss. If there wasn't some way to be saved before Jesus came then EVERYONE who died before Jesus paid the price would have been automatically condemned. There could not have been any righteous people during this period. No-one from the time of Adam until Jesus death could have been called righteous. If that were true then God's plan would have been stopped in it's tracks and Satan would have won by default. That is why there had to be a substitute covering until He died. It was also a foreshadowing pointing to Jesus.IMHO God had to have somewhere for the righteous dead to go before the death and resurrection of Jesus. It makes sense that God may have had a place in Sheol for them. It would not have been hard for Him to have done this.
     
  18. Joe Cervasio

    Joe Cervasio New Member

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    Ask and you will be listened to ...If God is with us, who can be against us?
     
  19. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    BraveHeart, the Strong's Concordance translates the word 'Today' as: neuter (as adverb); on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):--this (to-)day. It clearly indicates that day not some future time. I am at a loss as to where you get the phrase 'some future time' from this meaning. Maybe you could show us how you got that?
     
  20. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (TallMan;40224)
    Was the one that said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" saved?I ask because I've met many who say they are saved because of these few verses.
    Yes... what else would it take to get into heaven? Works? If so, how much works? A weeks worth? Perhaps a month? A lifetime? Or, is it based on a percentage... should we give 50% of our time to good works (or a little more to tip the scales)?It is by grace alone. He has done all the work for us.
     
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