This generation

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UppsalaDragby

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"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matt 24:34

OK, here's the deal. I've got a theory (oh stop rolling your eyes), and although I don't have a great deal of scripture to support it, I don't see anything that actually disproves it, at least so far, and so that's where you come in I guess, because I want to test my theory.

Matt 24:23 has done a good job of causing a gigantic rift in the way we interpret end time prophecy. It caused C.S. Lewis to shug his shoulders and say "maybe Jesus go it wrong" (or something like that), and today most of us are left to choose between preterism, which requires spiritualizing some of the events, or futurism, which kind of clumbsily shifts the generation in question forward to some point in time.

The reason we do this is that we almost unaminously interpret the word "generation" as being a timespan. It seems more scriptural to do so, because what comes closest to mind is the 40 year generation wandering around in the desert. However, the Hebrew word for generation seems to have the same uses as the English word - it could be a timespan, but it could also be a "strain" or "lineage".

So to test this, let's start off by totally decoupling the normal use of the word, by which we use it as a delimiter within which to frame the end-time events, and instead view the verse in question as if it was an separate event. That would mean that what Jesus was saying was that the passing away of "this generation" would be the very last event in a long chain of events.

Now, do we have anything else in scripture that speaks of such an event? I think we do. Remember, the Olivet discourse is a “condensed” version of the Book of Revelation. Both seem to parallell each other as far as the “main events” are concerned (wars, famine etc. etc), and, here comes the important thing in this discussion, both lead up to the destruction of the wicked – i.e. the second death. In Revelation it is the very last event that occurs before the new heavens and new earth come down from heaven.

So could Jesus have been referring to this event in Matthew 24:34?

Well, so much for the event. Let’s look at the idea that Jesus may have been referring to a certain strain of people, rather than a physical generation. Doing a quick word search for “generation” in the NT reveals that whenever Jesus referred to "this generation" he described its attributes – wicked and adulterous, unbelieving and so on. He also pointed out that “this generation” was scheduled to be condemned at the judgement. Now was it just the "generation" that lived at the time of his ministry? Or is there a "wicked and unbelieving" generation that has existed from that time until this very day?

If Jesus, when speaking about "this generation" was only refering to one generation in time - the one that stood right in front of him then my theory wouldn't make much sense. But take not of this. When speaking to the pharisees of that generation in Matthew 23:35,36 Jesus tells them what will eventually happen to them:

“And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.”

At first glance it looks like Jesus is referring to the generation standing in front of him, which he is, but notice towards the the end of these verses it speaks about Zechariah “whom you murdered” despite the fact that Zechariah was murdered hundreds of years before the pharasees even existed.

Obviously "this generation" is not restricted to the lifespan of people living during his day. He is speaking about ALL who have the nature of these people - those of the same spiritual lineage.

I think in Matt 24:34 Jesus was answering the question on everyone's lips:

How long will we have to put up with evil in this world?
 

horsecamp

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think of all the things that comes from the word generator ----------------------electricity flows from a car generator constantly untill the switch is pulled also generations of people are also constant untill the end of the world

yet Jesus said this generation -----------------

who was Jesus talking to?
Jesus was talking to both believers and "unbelievers" .. and they have not passed away ..have they?

Im not making up a new concept look through the bible your self and see God is always talking about both believers and unbelievers..

Scripture interpets scripture verses easly understood --------------shed light on verses less easly understood .
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, UppsalaDragby.

UppsalaDragby said:
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matt 24:34

OK, here's the deal. I've got a theory (oh stop rolling your eyes), and although I don't have a great deal of scripture to support it, I don't see anything that actually disproves it, at least so far, and so that's where you come in I guess, because I want to test my theory.

Matt 24:23 has done a good job of causing a gigantic rift in the way we interpret end time prophecy. It caused C.S. Lewis to shug his shoulders and say "maybe Jesus go it wrong" (or something like that), and today most of us are left to choose between preterism, which requires spiritualizing some of the events, or futurism, which kind of clumbsily shifts the generation in question forward to some point in time.

The reason we do this is that we almost unaminously interpret the word "generation" as being a timespan. It seems more scriptural to do so, because what comes closest to mind is the 40 year generation wandering around in the desert. However, the Hebrew word for generation seems to have the same uses as the English word - it could be a timespan, but it could also be a "strain" or "lineage".

So to test this, let's start off by totally decoupling the normal use of the word, by which we use it as a delimiter within which to frame the end-time events, and instead view the verse in question as if it was an separate event. That would mean that what Jesus was saying was that the passing away of "this generation" would be the very last event in a long chain of events.

Now, do we have anything else in scripture that speaks of such an event? I think we do. Remember, the Olivet discourse is a “condensed” version of the Book of Revelation. Both seem to parallell each other as far as the “main events” are concerned (wars, famine etc. etc), and, here comes the important thing in this discussion, both lead up to the destruction of the wicked – i.e. the second death. In Revelation it is the very last event that occurs before the new heavens and new earth come down from heaven.

So could Jesus have been referring to this event in Matthew 24:34?

Well, so much for the event. Let’s look at the idea that Jesus may have been referring to a certain strain of people, rather than a physical generation. Doing a quick word search for “generation” in the NT reveals that whenever Jesus referred to "this generation" he described its attributes – wicked and adulterous, unbelieving and so on. He also pointed out that “this generation” was scheduled to be condemned at the judgement. Now was it just the "generation" that lived at the time of his ministry? Or is there a "wicked and unbelieving" generation that has existed from that time until this very day?

If Jesus, when speaking about "this generation" was only refering to one generation in time - the one that stood right in front of him then my theory wouldn't make much sense. But take not of this. When speaking to the pharisees of that generation in Matthew 23:35,36 Jesus tells them what will eventually happen to them:

“And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.”

At first glance it looks like Jesus is referring to the generation standing in front of him, which he is, but notice towards the the end of these verses it speaks about Zechariah “whom you murdered” despite the fact that Zechariah was murdered hundreds of years before the pharasees even existed.

Obviously "this generation" is not restricted to the lifespan of people living during his day. He is speaking about ALL who have the nature of these people - those of the same spiritual lineage.

I think in Matt 24:34 Jesus was answering the question on everyone's lips:

How long will we have to put up with evil in this world?
I believe you are EXACTLY correct. Consider the "generations" that are listed in the genealogy of the Messiah in Matthew 1. If one compares this list of ancestors with the lists found in 1 Samuel through 2 Kings and in 1 and 2 Chronicles, one will discover that there were names that were SKIPPED in Matthew's account! I believe the answer as to why this would be is that these "generations" are not "lifetimes" of individuals but rather are "philosophies" of individuals - i.e., whether God counted them as one that "did right in the sight of ADONAI" and one that "did evil in the sight of ADONAI." If a son carried on the evil of his father, he was still of that "generation." If a son did what was right but not in the same way as his father, he earned another "generation."

It's only my opinion, but I believe this accounts for the "14 generations" when more than 14 lifetimes were involved.

Good thoughts!
 

UppsalaDragby

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horsecamp said:
think of all the things that comes from the word generator ----------------------electricity flows from a car generator constantly untill the switch is pulled also generations of people are also constant untill the end of the world

yet Jesus said this generation -----------------

who was Jesus talking to?
Jesus was talking to both believers and "unbelievers" .. and they have not passed away ..have they?

Im not making up a new concept look through the bible your self and see God is always talking about both believers and unbelievers..

Scripture interpets scripture verses easly understood --------------shed light on verses less easly understood .
Thanks horsecamp!

I take it you are a preterist?

Actually I think I did use scripture to interpret scripture. I did that when pointing out the pattern that appears when Jesus spoke of "this generation".

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, UppsalaDragby.


I believe you are EXACTLY correct. Consider the "generations" that are listed in the genealogy of the Messiah in Matthew 1. If one compares this list of ancestors with the lists found in 1 Samuel through 2 Kings and in 1 and 2 Chronicles, one will discover that there were names that were SKIPPED in Matthew's account! I believe the answer as to why this would be is that these "generations" are not "lifetimes" of individuals but rather are "philosophies" of individuals - i.e., whether God counted them as one that "did right in the sight of ADONAI" and one that "did evil in the sight of ADONAI." If a son carried on the evil of his father, he was still of that "generation." If a son did what was right but not in the same way as his father, he earned another "generation."

It's only my opinion, but I believe this accounts for the "14 generations" when more than 14 lifetimes were involved.

Good thoughts!
Thanks Roy!

I had actually considered sending you my "theory" privately at one time because I have followed your activities over the years and you really seem to have a good knowledge of the scriptures, but I never quite got around to it.

Good points about the "generations" of Christ! And the concept of good seeds and bad seeds growing up together seem to be a theme that is repeated throughout the Bible. Perhaps that is what was in the back of my mind when I first started to think about this.
 

veteran

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UppsalaDragby said:
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matt 24:34
OK, here's the deal. I've got a theory (oh stop rolling your eyes), and although I don't have a great deal of scripture to support it, I don't see anything that actually disproves it, at least so far, and so that's where you come in I guess, because I want to test my theory.
Matt 24:23 has done a good job of causing a gigantic rift in the way we interpret end time prophecy. It caused C.S. Lewis to shug his shoulders and say "maybe Jesus go it wrong" (or something like that), and today most of us are left to choose between preterism, which requires spiritualizing some of the events, or futurism, which kind of clumbsily shifts the generation in question forward to some point in time.

....
Obviously "this generation" is not restricted to the lifespan of people living during his day. He is speaking about ALL who have the nature of these people - those of the same spiritual lineage.
I think in Matt 24:34 Jesus was answering the question on everyone's lips:
How long will we have to put up with evil in this world?
Firstly, followers of men's doctrines of Preterism have constantly tried to push those events of Matt.24 back in history, likewise that generation Jesus mentioned. They do that because they don't really understand those events Christ gave per all of His Word. (I know, some of you are rolling your eyes at this too).

Secondly, just because a Bible prophecy is still set to happen sometime in the future does not... mean to automatically apply men's doctrines of Futurism. (There's probably as many things about Futurism I don't believe compared with things they do teach which I also believe.)

Thirdly, Jesus was answering His disciple's question about the end of this present world and the sign of His coming (i.e., second coming of course). Of course Preterism deals with that specific question first, twisting the mind's of the gullible into believing that question was about some time back in history like 70 A.D.

Fourthly, each time Preterism runs into a problem with their man-made theory on Matt.24, they simply make up a new idea they think will explain it. Because they pushed the idea that Matt.24 was pretty much history, some took that idea and ran with it, and claim Jesus' second coming already happened back in history, thus "Full Preterism".

And fifthly, that generation idea Jesus mentioned is not the only parameter of that prophecy He gave there. Matt.24:32 is actually the start of that specific Message involving that "generation". And in that Matt.24:32 He commanded to learn what parable? The parable of a fig tree. That specific parable involves the timing when that generation was to be. Furthermore, all those signs in the previous part of the chapter were included about that generation when Jesus said "when ye shall see all these things" (Matt.24:33).

And lastly, the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill the parameters of the Olivet prophecy. The temple burned down before the Romans could sieze it, there was no abomination idol ("abomination of desolation") setup inside the holy place, which requires a standing temple in Jerusalem per the Daniel prophecy Jesus quoted, and Jesus' second coming did not happen. Those who push those theories against the simplicity of that Matthew 24 Scripture are either serving some system of man that has promised them something, or they are too lazy to get into all of God's Word for theirself and simply heed what those men serve them, swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

The Christian Church denomination I was raised in was primarily Preterist. I know the preacher meant well, but after having asked The LORD about this matter, and got into a thorough study of His Word for myself with His help, I now know that preacher was simply following the status quo of his system headquarters which provided him with a retirement pension. He had no real clue as to the timing and events Jesus gave there on the Mount of Olives.

It's also worth mentioning that the Mount of Olives where our Lord Jesus gave His disciples those events for the end is also where He ascended to The Father from (Acts 1). And it is also the specific spot on earth where He will return per Scripture at His second coming (Zech.14). Thus, I don't think it a coincedence that He was giving events for the very end of this world and signs of His coming in Matt.24, just as His disciples had asked Him.
 

Rocky Wiley

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UppsalaDragby,

You are thinking and trying to answer questions with scripture and that is how one should study God’s word. Now allow me to ask a question using scripture.


Num_14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

Num_32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
God made them wander in the desert forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil. The Lord was not talking to our generation doing evil, he was talking to that generation.

Deu_1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers
Notice here that “this evil generation” was referring to those that would wander in the desert.

God is not the author of confusion, so “this generation” did not mean a future generation when speaking about those that were walking in the wilderness with Moses. That being true, why would Jesus ‘God’ change the meaning when talking to the Jews as he walked here on earth?

I can’t understand why people are so hung up on a future returning. We will be resurrected immediately after passing from this body we have today.

One more thing, Daniel tied the last day to the desolation of the temple and Jerusalem. If it is in the old testament, then the disciples would understand that. So when they pointed out the beautiful temple to Jesus and he said it would be destroyed (desolated) they ask “when would these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?”. They tied the destruction of the temple to his coming at the end of the age. It happened in 70 AD.

It has to be harder to believe men, than it is to believe God. So, let’s believe what is written in the bible, as it is written.

Keep up your studies and

Be blessed
 

UppsalaDragby

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Rocky Wiley said:
UppsalaDragby,

You are thinking and trying to answer questions with scripture and that is how one should study God’s word. Now allow me to ask a question using scripture.


Num_14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

Num_32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
God made them wander in the desert forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil. The Lord was not talking to our generation doing evil, he was talking to that generation.

Deu_1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers
Notice here that “this evil generation” was referring to those that would wander in the desert.

God is not the author of confusion, so “this generation” did not mean a future generation when speaking about those that were walking in the wilderness with Moses. That being true, why would Jesus ‘God’ change the meaning when talking to the Jews as he walked here on earth?

I can’t understand why people are so hung up on a future returning. We will be resurrected immediately after passing from this body we have today.

One more thing, Daniel tied the last day to the desolation of the temple and Jerusalem. If it is in the old testament, then the disciples would understand that. So when they pointed out the beautiful temple to Jesus and he said it would be destroyed (desolated) they ask “when would these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?”. They tied the destruction of the temple to his coming at the end of the age. It happened in 70 AD.

It has to be harder to believe men, than it is to believe God. So, let’s believe what is written in the bible, as it is written.

Keep up your studies and

Be blessed
I am not sure what you mean by God "changing the meaning" of what he said and why you think those verses are relevant. If God doesn't change his meaning (whatever that is supposed to mean) then I guess Jesus was exclusively refering to the generation that wandered around in the desert. But I doubt that is what you mean.

In any case, I am very careful not to lock my interpretation of scripture into some kind of methodology, (even though it is important to have certain methods, which I do have). But sometimes I get the feeling that people think that scripture is some kind of puzzle that you piece together using rules, methods and formulas. Jesus opened the minds of his disciples so that they could understand the scriptures and then indicated that he would send the Holy Spirit to us in order to lead us into all truth.

The interpretation I presented in the OP did not come after months and months of study. It came more or less in a split second after I was challenged by an atheist concerning this, so I decided to test it here. I realize that many of you have decided on what camp you belong to, and that's fine, but simply saying that "God is not the author of confusion" and then suggesting your idea of what clarity is just doesn't cut it for me. I'm sorry brother, but preterism to me just leaves too many unanswered questions, and if you don't mind me saying, "confusion".
 

Rocky Wiley

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UppsalaDragby said:
I am not sure what you mean by God "changing the meaning" of what he said and why you think those verses are relevant. If God doesn't change his meaning (whatever that is supposed to mean) then I guess Jesus was exclusively refering to the generation that wandered around in the desert. But I doubt that is what you mean.
Hi uppsaladragby,

My point is about God using 'this' generation in the old testament and Jesus using 'this' generation in the new testament. The word 'this' means something right here and now. In the old testament it was the generation that Moses and those with him that was 'this' generation that God was speaking about.

In the new testament Jesus uses the term 'this' generation many times but the prophecy teacher of today say that Jesus was not speaking about the disciples generation, but a future generation. In my way of thinking, Jesus would have said 'that' generation if indeed he was speaking of a future generation.

Even you, didn't seem to understand that when Jesus said 'this' generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled that he was speaking about the generation he was walking around in. It was the disciples generation. When we can read the new testament with the understanding that Jesus was telling the people of that time that judgment was coming upon them then we can read with understanding.
 

UppsalaDragby

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Rocky Wiley said:
Hi uppsaladragby,

My point is about God using 'this' generation in the old testament and Jesus using 'this' generation in the new testament. The word 'this' means something right here and now. In the old testament it was the generation that Moses and those with him that was 'this' generation that God was speaking about.

In the new testament Jesus uses the term 'this' generation many times but the prophecy teacher of today say that Jesus was not speaking about the disciples generation, but a future generation. In my way of thinking, Jesus would have said 'that' generation if indeed he was speaking of a future generation.

Even you, didn't seem to understand that when Jesus said 'this' generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled that he was speaking about the generation he was walking around in. It was the disciples generation. When we can read the new testament with the understanding that Jesus was telling the people of that time that judgment was coming upon them then we can read with understanding.
OK, I understand your point Rocky, but in the OP I pointed out that Jesus spoke of "this generation" in Matthew 23:35,36 where it clearly goes beyond the scope of those standing there. Obviously, those who killed Zechariah son of Berekiah were not "standing there". The only way that they could have been standing there is by assuming that the pharisees that Jesus was talking to were descended from (i.e. the same generation) as those who killed this prophet, which agrees with what he says in verses 31,32:

“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers”

And I think a similar idea can be picked up from Hebrews 7:9-10:

"One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor."

These verses talk about a generation in a hereditary sense, not in the sense of a timespan.

So even with the interpretation of "this generation" as a genetic lineage rather than a lifespan, there is no conflict with the fact that Jesus was addressing the people in front of him. He was. He was talking to them, but he was referring to when he spoke of the passing away of their generation was the entire lineage. Generations have a tendency to generate other generations, and as we can see today, there still exists a wicked and unbelieving generation.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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UppsalaDragby

My quick reply would be that there "several" prophecies in Matthew 24 .... some are short term (destruction of the temple in 70 AD) and the remainder are still future (end times)

And by the way they are written to a Jewish audience ... so keep that in mind ... it is more about Israel than it is about Cheyenne Wyoming

Jesus has already demonstrated that one set of prophecy can end in mid sentence , and the remainder of the paragraph is thousands of years in the future

Jesus demonstrated exactly that when he first entered the temple and read (part) of the Isaiah scroll ... He stopped at a comma (mid sentence) , and rolled the scroll back up and handed it to the attendant.

What he read was in effect the moment he read it and the people heard it .... the rest is still future

Matthew 24 appears to be set up that way as well

Arnie



.
 

UppsalaDragby

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Arnie Manitoba said:
UppsalaDragby

My quick reply would be that there "several" prophecies in Matthew 24 .... some are short term (destruction of the temple in 70 AD) and the remainder are still future (end times)

And by the way they are written to a Jewish audience ... so keep that in mind ... it is more about Israel than it is about Cheyenne Wyoming

Jesus has already demonstrated that one set of prophecy can end in mid sentence , and the remainder of the paragraph is thousands of years in the future

Jesus demonstrated exactly that when he first entered the temple and read (part) of the Isaiah scroll ... He stopped at a comma (mid sentence) , and rolled the scroll back up and handed it to the attendant.

What he read was in effect the moment he read it and the people heard it .... the rest is still future

Matthew 24 appears to be set up that way as well

Arnie
Good points Arnie! I agree, The fact that Jesus stopped reading there must have been significant. The day of favor was "fulfilled in their hearing", but the day of vengeance was not. God's day of favor has spread out into the entire world and effected all who believe, but the destruction of the temple in 70 AD would only account for a handful of God's enemies, so it could not possibly be the day of his vengeance.
 

veteran

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UppsalaDragby said:
Good points Arnie! I agree, The fact that Jesus stopped reading there must have been significant. The day of favor was "fulfilled in their hearing", but the day of vengeance was not. God's day of favor has spread out into the entire world and effected all who believe, but the destruction of the temple in 70 AD would only account for a handful of God's enemies, so it could not possibly be the day of his vengeance.
Same idea with Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24. Although He presented those signs to His disciples there upon the mount, it does not mean they were the specific generation that would see His second coming, the last sign there He gave them.

So obviously, if He gave them that last sign, and we know easily it was not fulfilled in their days, then what does that mean for the other signs He gave them? You're back to square one for what "generation" He meant if you can't discern that. If men's doctrines of Preterism had never existed I don't think so many would be in doubt as for when those signs are for.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Same idea with Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24. Although He presented those signs to His disciples there upon the mount, it does not mean they were the specific generation that would see His second coming, the last sign there He gave them.

So obviously, if He gave them that last sign, and we know easily it was not fulfilled in their days, then what does that mean for the other signs He gave them? You're back to square one for what "generation" He meant if you can't discern that. If men's doctrines of Preterism had never existed I don't think so many would be in doubt as for when those signs are for.
I believe that Arnie and UppsalaDragby are right. You can't put all of the words of Messiah Yeshua`s "Discourse" off into the future, either! I don't like calling it "Partial Preterism" because guys like you take it the wrong way, but call it "partial futurism" for the Olivet Discourse. ONLY SOME of the prophecy is about our future; SOME of the prophecy was about THEIR future, although not ours! Yeshua` was warning His disciples SPECIFICALLY whenever He used the "you" pronoun, and He was warning them about what THEY AND THEIR LOVED ONES would face in 66 to 70 A.D!

It's not about "men's doctrines of Preterism"; it's about LISTENING TO WHAT YESHUA` SAID and paying attention to WHEN He said it and WHY He said it to them! Do NOT discount the age in which He lived and don't discount the fact that Yeshua` KNEW that the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem would occur in 70 A.D. If that throws the proverbial monkey wrench into somebody's view on prophecy, so be it! It's worth a little discomfort requiring an additional amount of work to correct one's understanding of what Yeshua` was talking about.

Therefore, it's not about a "future generation" anymore than it is about a "past generation." It's about a people who continually reject Yeshua` as God's Messiah! They are STILL in that "generation" that rejected Him!
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.


I believe that Arnie and UppsalaDragby are right. You can't put all of the words of Messiah Yeshua`s "Discourse" off into the future, either! I don't like calling it "Partial Preterism" because guys like you take it the wrong way, but call it "partial futurism" for the Olivet Discourse. ONLY SOME of the prophecy is about our future; SOME of the prophecy was about THEIR future, although not ours! Yeshua` was warning His disciples SPECIFICALLY whenever He used the "you" pronoun, and He was warning them about what THEY AND THEIR LOVED ONES would face in 66 to 70 A.D!

It's not about "men's doctrines of Preterism"; it's about LISTENING TO WHAT YESHUA` SAID and paying attention to WHEN He said it and WHY He said it to them! Do NOT discount the age in which He lived and don't discount the fact that Yeshua` KNEW that the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem would occur in 70 A.D. If that throws the proverbial monkey wrench into somebody's view on prophecy, so be it! It's worth a little discomfort requiring an additional amount of work to correct one's understanding of what Yeshua` was talking about.

Therefore, it's not about a "future generation" anymore than it is about a "past generation." It's about a people who continually reject Yeshua` as God's Messiah! They are STILL in that "generation" that rejected Him!
All that is still totally irrelevant to what's contained within the Matthew 24 chapters signs that Jesus gave, the very last one being the sign of His second coming at the very end of this world. It does not change the fact that His disciples specifically asked Him about the signs of the end of this world and of His coming return within the first 3 verses prior to His answering their question with giving all those signs of the end.
 

Rocky Wiley

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[SIZE=12pt]Now, do we have anything else in scripture that speaks of such an event? I think we do. Remember, the Olivet discourse is a “condensed”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]version of the Book of Revelation. Both seem to parallel each other as far as the “main events”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are concerned (wars, famine etc. etc), and, here comes the important thing in this discussion, both lead up to the destruction o[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]f the wicked [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]–[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]i.e. the second death. In Revelation it is the very last event that occurs before the new heavens and new earth come down from h[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]eaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]So could Jesus have been referring to this event in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Matthew 24:34[/SIZE]?
Who was the old testament written to? The Jews.
What lineage was Jesus from in the flesh? The Jews.
Who did Jesus say rejected him? The Jews.
Who might be the wicked that Jesus talked about? The unbelieving Jews.
If the unbelieving Jews had gone a whoring after other God’s, why would Jesus care? Because he had a covenant with them and that covenant, if broken, had penalties.
Why didn’t Jesus go to the Gentiles and make a covenant with them? Because God was dealing with his chosen people in that generation, not the church age. That would happen after his crucifixion. Why would God judge the Jews and not the gentiles? The gentiles had never known God and had no covenant with him.
Weren’t the gospels speaking to gentiles? No they weren’t.
When did God start dealing with the gentiles? In the book of Acts. After Jesus had already told the Jews that judgment would come upon them in their generation.
Why was the temple important? Because that is where God and the Jew would meet.
Is this why the prophecy teachers of today say that the temple must be rebuilt? Yes.
Were any of the epistles written to any other generation than the ones that they were addressed to? No.
Was the book of Revelation written to us? No, it was written to the seven churches of Asia of that time.
After spending so much time instructing the Jews on how to live for him and be his people (all of the old testament), why would he bring judgment upon the wicked gentiles who until the book of Acts, had never known him?
Could God be wrong in just dealing with the Jews before the book of Acts and the church?
As we read the book of Revelation, we see that there are those that been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, That would mean those Christians had died and gone on to be with the Lord before Revelation had been written. If that be the case, and it is, why are the Christians waiting for another coming, for we go on to be with the Lord when we die? The only ones that were still waiting, at that time were the Jews. (That happened at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, the last day of their world).

Think about it, and:
Be blessed










 

UppsalaDragby

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Feb 6, 2012
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The quote button doesn't seem to be working for me at the moment, and I cannot paste either.. but anyway...

Rocky, I think we need to bear in mind that a large part of the reason why the Jews behaved the way they did was because their hearts were hardened. This of course was due to the fact that they "failed to love the truth and so be saved". For Hebrews 4 teachs us that they were first offered the gospel to believe, but rejected it. The gospel for them came in the form of a promised "rest". Since they rejected that rest, and since God's Word does not fail, that promise of rest "remained" until the time God's gospel of faith was passed on to the Gentiles.

But another reason why their hearts were hardened was to act as an example for us so that we would not make the same mistake as they did:

"Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:11)

We shouldn't take this warning lightly because it has been handed over to us, more or less at their expense. It also worries me a bit when I see some of the behavior in the Christian Church today all the while scripture promises us:

"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the gentile." (Romans 2:9)

As you know, the time of the Gentiles has an expiration date based on an unknown number:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25)

Now Think about these points for a second:

* The Jews were hardened because they failed to love the truth.
* Distress in abundance has been meted out to them down through the ages.
* Distress was predicted to occur first for the Jew and then for the Gentile, because according to Paul:
* God does not show favoritism.

So will history repeat itself? I am convinced that it will, and that 2 Thess 2:9-12 predicts a second "hardening" that is scheduled to occur:

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

As far as who the book of Revelation was written to, I wouldn't get too dogmatic. Prophecies quite often have little to do with the audience or the time in which they are written and actually consist of verses lifted out of one context and projected into another. Consider what Peter wrote:

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20)

And:

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that now have been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

In other words, who the prophets thought they were addressing or what they thought about the prophecies themselves had little to do with to whom they were actually addressed. They were simply carried along by the Holy Spirit and wrote down the words they were given. It is the same Holy Spirit that inpires the message, that also reveals that message to the people to whom it was intended to reach. Just like an encrypted message where the same person who has the key to encrypts the message has the key to decrypt it. This is why Jesus took his disciples and "opened their minds so that they could understand the scriptures". It was probably then that Peter started to realize that the OT prophecies were actually predicting the things that he was witnessing in his day.

So with this in mind I don't think it is wise to have too narrow a view when interpreting scripture and determining its scope. We cannot read "first for the Jew" and then stop reading the rest. And remember this, the last thing that Mark records saying in reference to the end time prophecies is this:

"What I say to you, I say to everyone: Watch!"

It is almost as though he was trying to make a point here by saying that this did not only concern those who were there.
 
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veteran

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UppsalaDragby said:
The quote button doesn't seem to be working for me at the moment, and I cannot paste either.. but anyway...

Rocky, I think we need to bear in mind that a large part of the reason why the Jews behaved the way they did was because their hearts were hardened. This of course was due to the fact that they "failed to love the truth and so be saved". For Hebrews 4 teachs us that they were first offered the gospel to believe, but rejected it. The gospel for them came in the form of a promised "rest". Since they rejected that rest, and since God's Word does not fail, that promise of rest "remained" until the time God's gospel of faith was passed on to the Gentiles.

But another reason why their hearts were hardened was to act as an example for us so that we would not make the same mistake as they did:

"Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:11)

We shouldn't take this warning lightly because it has been handed over to us, more or less at their expense. It also worries me a bit when I see some of the behavior in the Christian Church today all the while scripture promises us:

"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the gentile." (Romans 2:9)

As you know, the time of the Gentiles has an expiration date based on an unknown number:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25)

Now Think about these points for a second:

* The Jews were hardened because they failed to love the truth.
* Distress in abundance has been meted out to them down through the ages.
* Distress was predicted to occur first for the Jew and then for the Gentile, because according to Paul:
* God does not show favoritism.

So will history repeat itself? I am convinced that it will, and that 2 Thess 2:9-12 predicts a second "hardening" that is scheduled to occur:

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

As far as who the book of Revelation was written to, I wouldn't get too dogmatic. Prophecies quite often have little to do with the audience or the time in which they are written and actually consist of verses lifted out of one context and projected into another. Consider what Peter wrote:

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20)

And:

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that now have been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

In other words, who the prophets thought they were addressing or what they thought about the prophecies themselves had little to do with to whom they were actually addressed. They were simply carried along by the Holy Spirit and wrote down the words they were given. It is the same Holy Spirit that inpires the message, that also reveals that message to the people to whom it was intended to reach. Just like an encrypted message where the same person who has the key to encrypts the message has the key to decrypt it. This is why Jesus took his disciples and "opened their minds so that they could understand the scriptures". It was probably then that Peter started to realize that the OT prophecies were actually predicting the things that he was witnessing in his day.

So with this in mind I don't think it is wise to have too narrow a view when interpreting scripture and determining its scope. We cannot read "first for the Jew" and then stop reading the rest. And remember this, the last thing that Mark records saying in reference to the end time prophecies is this:

"What I say to you, I say to everyone: Watch!"

It is almost as though he was trying to make a point here by saying that this did not only concern those who were there.
Well said.
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
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UppsalaDragby said:
The quote button doesn't seem to be working for me at the moment, and I cannot paste either.. but anyway...

Rocky, I think we need to bear in mind that a large part of the reason why the Jews behaved the way they did was because their hearts were hardened. This of course was due to the fact that they "failed to love the truth and so be saved". For Hebrews 4 teachs us that they were first offered the gospel to believe, but rejected it. The gospel for them came in the form of a promised "rest". Since they rejected that rest, and since God's Word does not fail, that promise of rest "remained" until the time God's gospel of faith was passed on to the Gentiles.
God's word is true. How one interprets it is not always what is said. I have tried to make the point that there is no scripture written to us or any generation after the disciples'. The new Jerusalem has come down and God will not return to the Jew of his day. We are the children of Abraham and any one of faith can come in. That includes the others that still claim that they are waiting for their Messiah.

It is finished.

Be blessed
 

UppsalaDragby

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Feb 6, 2012
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me at all. How can you say that "we are the children of Abraham" if scripture written after the disciples doesn't speak to "us"?

The pharisees also claimed to be the children of Abraham and what did Jesus tell them?

"And do NOT think that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."

And

"If you were Abraham's children then you would do the things Abraham did."

The ONLY thing that indicates that we are Abraham's children is this:

"it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's Children." (Romans 9:8)

And

"those who believe are the children of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7)

And who was that verse directed to? "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints" and, obviously, to the "Galatians".

So I guess that excludes us...

If it is not the natural children that are Abrahams children, but rather the people who "do the things Abraham did", then I suggest that what we have here is God's definition of the Abrahamic line of descent, otherwise known as "generation".

Conversely, the people who belong to the "evil and unbelieving generation" would be those who "do the things that evil and unbelieving things do".

So what makes you think we are the children of Abraham?