This is the context of how Dan. 9:24-27 should be considered!

[Trekson]

I think the point, according to the Peter reference , is that God is outside of time. I don’t think it’s a formula for converting heavenly time. 2,000 years on earth is like 2 days (1000 years as a day) OR 730,000,000 million years (a day as 1,000 years) from Gods perspective.

But God can communicate when things are for the distant future in terms of human time, (like Daniel 8:26). So it doesn’t make much sense why God would say things are near “in heaven time”, which could mean millions of years or days.

Why wouldn’t Christ just say it’s for a distant time, just like the angel did in Daniel 8?

While on earth, Jesus said he didn't know when the end would be, only the Father knew. Perhaps that is/was still the case when He gave the Rev. to John.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes. As only He could do. It's mind boggling to see these dispensationalists trying to claim that the people of Israel can accomplish those things themselves. Such blasphemy.

yes it's outrageous.

 

[Jay Ross]

yes it's outrageous.

That the USA too believe that they too can accomplish those things as well by themselves and with their "friends."

Many people believe that they can act "God Like."

 

[claninja]

While on earth, Jesus said he didn't know when the end would be, only the Father knew. Perhaps that is/was still the case when He gave the Rev. to John.

He said he did not know “the day nor hour”. Though, I would argue that is not the same as not knowing the general time frame, as he said that he did know “this generation would not pass away until these things were fulfilled”. For example, when a woman is pregnant, while the exact day nor hour of when the baby will be born is not known, the general time frame generally is: 9 months.


but let’s take your argument - Jesus didn’t know. Why didn’t he, in revelation, just say “i don’t know” or even follow similar language to the angel in Daniel 12 “seal up the vision for it is about the end”?

instead Jesus said : “do not seal up the vision for the time is near” and “I am coming quickly”.

If, from a heavenly viewpoint, God can tell us when things are far off and when they are near, then why state “the time is near” if it wasn’t?

Let’s even add the simile of the fig tree to the argument, where Jesus said “when you see all these things, you will know it is near, just you know summer is near when the leaves bloom”. If the events of the Olivet discourse were occurring according to how God declared them fulfilled, Jesus could know the time was near. So if the events weren’t actually occurring, according to the futurist interpretation, why did Jesus say the time was near in revelation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

instead Jesus said : “do not seal up the vision for the time is near” and “I am coming quickly”.

The Greek word translated as "quickly" there is "tachy" (Strong's G5035) and it means quickly or immediately. Without delay. Very fast. So, what do you think, that Jesus was saying He was coming immediately after the book of Revelation was written? Of course He was not. What He is saying when He says He is coming quickly is that once it is time for Him to come again in the future, He will come quickly, without delay. He's not going to mess around. He's going to quickly descend from heaven, quickly gather His people to Himself and then quickly take vengeance on unbelievers throughout the world while bringing "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). He is coming quickly in the sense of coming as fast as the lightning flashes from the east to the west (Matthew 24:27). Jesus saying that He was going to come quickly has nothing to do with how soon He was coming after He said that.

 

[Trekson]

He said he did not know “the day nor hour”. Though, I would argue that is not the same as not knowing the general time frame, as he said that he did know “this generation would not pass away until these things were fulfilled”. For example, when a woman is pregnant, while the exact day nor hour of when the baby will be born is not known, the general time frame generally is: 9 months.


but let’s take your argument - Jesus didn’t know. Why didn’t he, in revelation, just say “i don’t know” or even follow similar language to the angel in Daniel 12 “seal up the vision for it is about the end”?

instead Jesus said : “do not seal up the vision for the time is near” and “I am coming quickly”.

If, from a heavenly viewpoint, God can tell us when things are far off and when they are near, then why state “the time is near” if it wasn’t?

Let’s even add the simile of the fig tree to the argument, where Jesus said “when you see all these things, you will know it is near, just you know summer is near when the leaves bloom”. If the events of the Olivet discourse were occurring according to how God declared them fulfilled, Jesus could know the time was near. So if the events weren’t actually occurring, according to the futurist interpretation, why did Jesus say the time was near in revelation?

Matt. 24:34 is dependent on vs. 33. "...the generation that will see these things fulfilled, that particular generation did not. Actually, an angel told John "not to seal up the prophecy" but Christ did say "I will come quickly", but there are lot of things we'll never find out until we get to heaven and I'm sure millions of christians will be asking the same thing, "how does 2000 yrs. equal "soon" or "quickly"? Regarding the fig tree, that happens every year at spring time and you know summer is closer than it was in October. When the generation arrives that "will see all things come to pass", then Lk. 21:28 tells us to look up for our redemption draweth now. Maybe Christ is speaking to that generation (the last one of the church) and to them it will be soon and quickly.

 

[claninja]

The Greek word translated as "quickly" there is "tachy" (Strong's G5035) and it means quickly or immediately. Without delay. Very fast. So, what do you think, that Jesus was saying He was coming immediately after the book of Revelation was written? Of course He was not. What He is saying when He says He is coming quickly is that once it is time for Him to come again in the future, He will come quickly, without delay. He's not going to mess around. He's going to quickly descend from heaven, quickly gather His people to Himself and then quickly take vengeance on unbelievers throughout the world while bringing "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). He is coming quickly in the sense of coming as fast as the lightning flashes from the east to the west (Matthew 24:27). Jesus saying that He was going to come quickly has nothing to do with how soon He was coming after He said that.

I agree it likely means quickly. It’s an adverb describing the action “coming”.

• Helps word studies: [5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]
• Strongs lexicon: ταχύ (neuter of the adjective ταχύς), adverb (from Pindar down), quickly, speedily (without delay)

But that doesn’t necessarily address the broader context - “the time is near”. In both revelation 1:3 and revelation 22:10. “near” means imminent and soon to come to pass in these instances:

• Strongs lexicon “near”: . of Time; concerning things imminent and soon to come to pass: Matthew 24:32; Matthew 26:18; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30, 31; John 2:13; John 6:4; John 7:2; John 11:55; Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:10;

Jesus told John, “the time is near”.

 

[claninja]

Matt. 24:34 is dependent on vs. 33. "...the generation that will see these things fulfilled, that particular generation did not. Actually, an angel told John "not to seal up the prophecy" but Christ did say "I will come quickly", but there are lot of things we'll never find out until we get to heaven and I'm sure millions of christians will be asking the same thing, "how does 2000 yrs. equal "soon" or "quickly"? Regarding the fig tree, that happens every year at spring time and you know summer is closer than it was in October. When the generation arrives that "will see all things come to pass", then Lk. 21:28 tells us to look up for our redemption draweth now. Maybe Christ is speaking to that generation (the last one of the church) and to them it will be soon and quickly.

Unfortunately, that’s just not a convincing answer to me . But I do appreciate the dialogue, and your attempt to fit Christs words into your theological framework.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree it likely means quickly. It’s an adverb describing the action “coming”.

• Helps word studies: [5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]

What is the difference between something happening "without any delay" and happening immediately or in a very short time? None. Just look at how the word is used in other verses and you should see that it is used to describe things that happen immediately (very quickly). I'll give a couple examples.

Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

So, when the angel told the women to go quickly, did the women then go immediately from the tomb to tell the disciples that Jesus was no longer in the tomb? Yes, they did.

John 11:28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him.

Did Mary go to meet Jesus immediately after Martha told her that He was calling for her? Yes, she did. So, yes, the word does mean immediately.

• Strongs lexicon: ταχύ (neuter of the adjective ταχύς), adverb (from Pindar down), quickly, speedily (without delay)

But that doesn’t necessarily address the broader context

I don't care about that right now. I've already addressed that many times. I just wanted to address what it means when Jesus said He will come quickly. The fact that you misinterpret what that means should make you reconsider whether you're interpreting other verses accurately or not as well.

 

[claninja]

What is the difference between something happening "without any delay" and happening immediately or in a very short time? None. Just look at how the word is used in other verses and you should see that it is used to describe things that happen immediately (very quickly). I'll give a couple examples.

Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

So, when the angel told the women to go quickly, did the women then go immediately from the tomb to tell the disciples that Jesus was no longer in the tomb? Yes, they did.

John 11:28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him.

Did Mary go to meet Jesus immediately after Martha told her that He was calling for her? Yes, she did. So, yes, the word does mean immediately.


I don't care about that right now. I've already addressed that many times. I just wanted to address what it means when Jesus said He will come quickly. The fact that you misinterpret what that means should make you reconsider whether you're interpreting other verses accurately or not as well.

I’m very confused by your response….
I think you are referring to the Helps Word Studies definition - not “necessarily in a very short time”?

Helps word studies is the common argument for the definition of tachy in revelation 22:12, where Christ says “I am coming (present tense verb) quickly”. While your examples of from Matthew and John indicate an immediate result of the quick/speed actions, The argument is that this word, grammatically, doesn’t “necessarily” require Christ to be presently coming immediately upon John receiving the revelation.

But hey, I absolutely agree that it can mean something happens immediately as a result of quick/speedy action. So I think the “misinterpretation” of my post is on your part, which also doesn’t address the broader context that Jesus said “the time is near”, which literally does mean imminent/soon.

 

[Trekson]

Unfortunately, that’s just not a convincing answer to me . But I do appreciate the dialogue, and your attempt to fit Christs words into your theological framework.

Rev. was written in 95-96 ad a quarter of a century after 70 ad. If I had the time, I could spend at least an hour listing the multitude of events that have never been fulfilled. Actually, 70ad only fulfilled three prophecies, Dan. 9:26, Matt.23:39 and Lk. 21:20-24. When speaking of God's prophecies, if 99% of a prophecy is seemingly fulfilled, then there is "no" fulfillment. With God, it's 100% or nothing unless the prophecy itself has time stages of fulfillment as Dan. 9:24-27 does.

 

[covenantee]

Rev. was written in 95-96 ad a quarter of a century after 70 ad. If I had the time, I could spend at least an hour listing the multitude of events that have never been fulfilled. Actually, 70ad only fulfilled three prophecies, Dan. 9:26, Matt.23:39 and Lk. 21:20-24. When speaking of God's prophecies, if 99% of a prophecy is seemingly fulfilled, then there is "no" fulfillment. With God, it's 100% or nothing unless the prophecy itself has time stages of fulfillment as Dan. 9:24-27 does.

70 AD fulfilled Matthew 23:35-39, Matthew 24:1-28, Mark 13:1-23, Luke 21:5-24.
Somewhat more than three.

 

[rvmb]

70 AD fulfilled Matthew 23:35-39, Matthew 24:1-28, Mark 13:1-23, Luke 21:5-24.
Somewhat more than three.

Where is the 70 AD destruction of the temple mentioned in Revelation ?

 

[covenantee]

Where is the 70 AD destruction of the temple mentioned in Revelation ?

Revelation 11:1-2 for those subscribing to early authorship.

 

[Zao is life]

Determined, just means planned or set aside. Just like it's been 'determined" that a baseball game has nine innings but that can change a game can be rained out, stopped early because of rain or go into extra innings. It's God who gets to determine when and how he will complete them. The concept that that they have to be completed all in one time frame is wrong. When one understands what happens when they are completed proves they weren't. If Israel had accepted Christ as their Messiah then and there, the millennium would have instantly begun and the church would never have been. Daniel is not about the church, it's about Israel.

Leviticus 25:15
According to the number of years after [H00310 'achar] the jubilee thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee.

The counting of the number of years starts after the Jubilee year, and it's consecutive. There are a multitude of verses in the Old Testament using the word H00310 'achar, and when used in a passage that counts time, they specifically mean following consecutively after a particular year - not during the previous year/s.
​

Genesis 5:4:
And the days of Adam after [H00310 'achar] he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.

Genesis 5:7:
And Seth lived after [H00310 'achar] he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.

And after [H00310 'achar] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26).

It goes on an on throughout the Old Testament. Same word, same meaning. Especially used when counting years or months, to make it abundantly clear that the year/s or months of something which follow certain months or years, FOLLOW AFTER the previous years.

It's so simple. After March comes April. After April comes June. After the 69th week comes the 70th week - and He (Messiah) was cut off in the midst of the 70th week.
​

Your willful ignorance has once again been exposed in this thread - made VERY obvious by yourself.

 

[Zao is life]

I appreciate that, bro. It doesn't make it automatically right, of course. The scriptural evidence to support our view is pretty overwhelming, in my opinion. But, do we ever see dispensationalists support their beliefs in a similar manner? Never. The next time a dispensationalist exegetes scripture will be the first time.

Dispensationalism: Dispense with the truth sensationalism.

 

[Trekson]

70 AD fulfilled Matthew 23:35-39, Matthew 24:1-28, Mark 13:1-23, Luke 21:5-24.
Somewhat more than three.

Sorry, but 70 ad fulfilled none of them.

 

[Trekson]

Leviticus 25:15
According to the number of years after [H00310 'achar] the jubilee thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee.

The counting of the number of years starts after the Jubilee year, and it's consecutive. There are a multitude of verses in the Old Testament using the word H00310 'achar, and when used in a passage that counts time, they specifically mean following consecutively after a particular year - not during the previous year/s.
​

Genesis 5:4:
And the days of Adam after [H00310 'achar] he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.

Genesis 5:7:
And Seth lived after [H00310 'achar] he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.

And after [H00310 'achar] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26).

It goes on an on throughout the Old Testament. Same word, same meaning. Especially used when counting years or months, to make it abundantly clear that the year/s or months of something which follow certain months or years, FOLLOW AFTER the previous years.

It's so simple. After March comes April. After April comes June. After the 69th week comes the 70th week - and He (Messiah) was cut off in the midst of the 70th week.
​

Your willful ignorance has once again been exposed in this thread - made VERY obvious by yourself.

It's saying what I said, at the end of the 69th week Messiah was "cut off". What happened to May? The only thing that vs. 26b,c is about, is 70ad which also would be at least 30 yrs "after" the 70th week, if it came immediately after the 69th. If one can have a gap of 30 yrs, then God can expand it over a millennia if he wants. Did you know that the word 'determined" in vs. 24 is different from its use at the end of vs. 26. It could be understood as after the world series is the superbowl. True statement but it doesn't start the next day after.

 

[claninja]

Rev. was written in 95-96 ad a quarter of a century after 70 ad.

So, still within the first century generation.

Actually, 70ad only fulfilled three prophecies, Dan. 9:26, Matt.23:39 and Lk. 21:20-24.

According to who?

When speaking of God's prophecies, if 99% of a prophecy is seemingly fulfilled, then there is "no" fulfillment. With God, it's 100% or nothing unless the prophecy itself has time stages of fulfillment as Dan. 9:24-27 does.

Who gets to determine if a prophecy is 100 percent fulfilled or not?

 

[Trekson]

Actually it's your opinion that the word does not mean what it means because you do not want it to mean what it means. The word "determined" in Daniel 9:24 means the same thing as "490 years have been decreed by God". The word 'achar (after) in verse 26 means that God determined that the Messiah would be cut off in the 70th week, and we know that it was in the midst of the 70th week that He was cut off:

"And I will establish my covenant [H03772 karath] with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

[H3772 karath]
to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces):--be chewed, be con-(feder-)ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ((covenant)), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.

"And after [H0310 'achar] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off [H03772 karath], but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)

There's the covenant mentioned right there - in Daniel 9:26 - by the word translated as "cut off". It's saying that Messiah shall cut a covenant after the first 483 years:

And he shall confirm [H01396 gabar] the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

[H01396 gabar gaw-bar']
a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently:--exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more (strength), strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

This is talking about His life:

"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off [1504 gazar] out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." (Isaiah 53:8)

This is talking about the covenant He cut in His blood:

"And after [H0310 'achar] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off [H03772 karath], but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)​

You are presuming it's about Christ, but if one went to the last person mentioned it would be the prince to come, "after" the 69th week, it doesn't say Christ is cut off then 70ad begins, because it doesn't but your rigidity would demand that it would. As I showed you before, Dan. 11:22-23 "proves" that the prince of vs. 27 is "not" Christ but apparently you want to ignore that inconvenient truth.