Tithes

[Robert Gwin]

It may help to ask what was your take away from the OP? I think I posted that in 2017 and then today in 2023 I’m not sure how I felt in 2017. I don’t tithe 10 percent income to a church mostly because I haven’t been blessed with money. Struggling to get it myself. As a wife my main income has come from my husband. I would be lying if I denied how I wish I made a large salary and had been a major contributor financially. I wish money came easily for me where I had no need or worry for money because people were lining up saying that I deserved a large paying salary. I’m 53 and the most I’ve been paid at a job is minimum wage because I really don’t have any rare talents. But that is not to say I don’t wish I had developed some over the years to where I could easily get a great paying job. Funny, maybe not funny but disturbing to me is having MS …my later years have become more relevant to me (what if I get to where I can’t walk?) and because of this I checked on disability. They said I’m not “insured” for disability because I have not paid in enough or consistently enough to receive it. This is all scary to me, yes, because I didn’t build or plan much for the future. Point is…not to cry poor pitiful me but to be honest, it does bother me. Money definitely has become more relevant to me as a necessary thing to think about. But still…I don’t (Imo) think God was ever talking about money in Malachi 3:8-11.

Point is it seems as if your take away from the OP calls for a correction. What was your take away?

Income is not really a factor since it is based on percentage. Admittedly I didn't read the post Vicky, I was just commenting on the title. If people knew that tithing is no longer a requirement for Christians, I feel that can be a relief from stress, like in your case. Those who follow Jesus' words at Mat 6:25-34 have no worries about having enough, as that is a promise from God maam. And in my lifetime I have to agree with the Psalmist who said: (Psalm 37:25) . . .I was once young and now I am old, But I have not seen anyone righteous abandoned, Nor his children looking for bread.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I forgot to address why I quoted this part of your post. “Although out of greed many still try to enforce it.”
Immediately to me that seems like the churches enforce it out of greed to fund the church goings. But to me “out of greed many still try to enforce it” could also be greedy with God in going back to Malachi saying God promises to bless the ten percent given (either privately or not) by increasing the amount returned on the ten percent given. For example if I give 100 dollars religiously then God may give me a return back of 1000 dollars. It does remind me a stock investment and returns …although I know nothing about stocks and returns except hoping to get a good return on your investments. Again, my point is maybe it is enforced because of the hope of great returns because if anyone questions those great returns; then what would be the point of investing that 10 percent? For example investing on a stock and the return of the investment being questioned; which the investor would not want to hear that nonsense?

Nice way to look at it Vicky, but I see it much differently.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Income is not really a factor since it is based on percentage.

Significant to me is the reference in Malachi to “bring the whole tithe” into the storehouse. I’ve heard it debated 10 percent or all; a 100 percent? Again the topic is always what percentage of money. The reason I said significant is “the whole tithe” could be that which is made “whole” in Christ. Which topic is not money. “Whole” having a different meaning that has nothing to do with money for example John 7:18-23 He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory: but he that seeks his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. (Whole?) 19] Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keep the law? Why do go you about to kill me? [20] The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and you all marvel. [22] Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and you on the sabbath day circumcise a man. [23] If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are you angry at me, because I have made a man “whole” on the sabbath day?

Reminded as of where he told them that not only do they not enter into the kingdom of God but they prevent and kept others out.
To me that could read as: not only are you not whole but you also prevent and keep others from being whole.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Nice way to look at it Vicky, but I see it much differently.

How do you see it?
I’m not saying I’ll agree, and I’m not asking so I can criticize how you see it…but I’m asking because I really want to know how anothers perspective can be very different.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Significant to me is the reference in Malachi to “bring the whole tithe” into the storehouse. I’ve heard it debated 10 percent or all; a 100 percent? Again the topic is always what percentage of money. The reason I said significant is “the whole tithe” could be that which is made “whole” in Christ. Which topic is not money. “Whole” having a different meaning that has nothing to do with money for example John 7:18-23 He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory: but he that seeks his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. (Whole?) 19] Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keep the law? Why do go you about to kill me? [20] The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and you all marvel. [22] Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and you on the sabbath day circumcise a man. [23] If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are you angry at me, because I have made a man “whole” on the sabbath day?

Reminded as of where he told them that not only do they not enter into the kingdom of God but they prevent and kept others out.
To me that could read as: not only are you not whole but you also prevent and keep others from being whole.

You definitely got the point of Jesus' words there Vicky. But he did say of those he was speaking of this:
(Matthew 23:23) . . .“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. . . .

 

[Robert Gwin]

How do you see it?
I’m not saying I’ll agree, and I’m not asking so I can criticize how you see it…but I’m asking because I really want to know how anothers perspective can be very different.

Kenneth Copeland: Net Worth $760 Million
Pat Robertson: Net Worth $100 Million
Benny Hinn: Net Worth $42 Million
Joel Osteen: Net Worth $40 Million
Jesus: (Matthew 8:20) . . .the Son of man has nowhere to lay down his head.”
Jesus followers: (Matthew 10:8, 9) . . .You received free, give free. 9 Do not acquire gold or silver or copper for your money belts,

I am not saying that full time ministers should not be compensated, but no one should get rich by selling the word of God. We should do as the law of the Christ commands concerning their "salary":
(2 Corinthians 9:6-14) . . .whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 Moreover, God is able to cause all his undeserved kindness to abound toward you so that you are always completely self-sufficient in everything, as well as having plenty for every good work. 9 (Just as it is written: “He has distributed widely; he has given to the poor. His righteousness continues forever.” 10 Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.) 11 In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity, which produces through us an expression of thanks to God; 12 because the ministry of this public service is not only to provide well for the needs of the holy ones but also to be rich in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Through the proof that this relief ministry gives, they glorify God because you are submissive to the good news about the Christ, as you publicly declared, and because you are generous in your contribution to them and to all. 14 And with supplication for you, they express affection for you because of the surpassing undeserved kindness of God upon you.

 

[bbyrd009]

Malachi 3:10 to me is very hopeful. Very much so. The lexicon doesn’t have the same wording as the KJV and maybe because of this, I prefer the KJV version there because of what I hope is promised. Maybe that is my making something out of nothing or reading too much into it.

Malachi 3:10 Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

First to me is speaks of “you must be born anew” in “there shall not be room enough to receive it”. What of the new heart? As in 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

“I will open you the windows of heaven, and pour out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Second (Imo) speaks of receiving the Spirit of God.

Third reason to me it is hopeful is where Christ said He goes to prepare a place where there IS room enough to receive it (the blessing?) Where He says “If it were not so I would tell you” to me that makes it not some pipe dream but very legitimate. The promise of God of a place prepared because the blessing is so genuine; that what He promised back in Malachi; He would open and pour out from above; so much so He had to go prepare a place with room enough to receive the blessing. Is it speaking of needing a place prepared with enough room to receive the fruits of the money increase? Why did Christ say He had to go prepare room…think of that? Did Christ Know the promise in Malachi would indeed be poured out? That He had to go prepare a place to receive it?

anyone who tells you that tithing is a law that has been somehow negated or rescinded should be Quoting where, imo

if you correctly identify “storehouse” and tithe to it, the passage in Malachi will manifest, imo
“storehouse” should pretty obviously not be contributing to some pastors lifestyle/upkeep, but since i may be wrong there, imo if one is doing that and their cup is not running over, then there ya go

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am not saying that full time ministers should not be compensated, but no one should get rich by selling the word of God.

I do get what you are saying. But to me the focus still being money there maybe hides another definition of getting rich or compensated for the Word of God. Which Kenneth Copeland’s might be obvious, the other might be less obvious “overcharging”. For example the word “overcharge” below
2 Corinthians 2:1-10 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. [2] For if I make you sorry, who is he then that makes me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? [3] And I wrote this same unto you, unless, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. [4] For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. [5] But if any have caused grief, he has not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. [6] Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. [7] So that contrariwise you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up (overcharged?)with overmuch sorrow. [8] Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. [9] For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether you be obedient in all things. [10] To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

What is the topic above of overcharging?
The Pharisees stink of money and greed to us, yea? As those you listed today stink of greed and money, yea? But to me getting rich off the word could also be how the Pharisees were drunk on power as keepers and regulators and tellers of what others must do.(could be the church having nothing to do with money in “overcharging”…Interesting is Luke 19:41-42 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [42] Saying, If you had known, even you, at least in this your day, the things which belong unto your peace! but now they are hid from your eyes.

Point is I guess is: (Imo) I could have no money and still “get rich(higher) off the word” by “overcharging” consider Isaiah 65:4-5 in regards to overcharging “Which remain among the graves(I see lurking among graves,Luke 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.) , and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; [5] Which say, Stand by yourself, come not near to me; for I am holier than you.(overcharging another?)These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all the day.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

anyone who tells you that tithing is a law that has been somehow negated or rescinded should be Quoting where, imo

if you correctly identify “storehouse” and tithe to it, the passage in Malachi will manifest, imo
“storehouse” should pretty obviously not be contributing to some pastors lifestyle/upkeep, but since i may be wrong there, imo if one is doing that and their cup is not running over, then there ya go

I was thinking about asking what is the storehouse in Malachi the other day. Agree that “if you correctly identify storehouse”. I can’t say I can correctly identify it but do think it is better than our definition of storehouse. Maybe that is all I need to know?

 

[bbyrd009]

I was thinking about asking what is the storehouse in Malachi the other day. Agree that “if you correctly identify storehouse”. I can’t say I can correctly identify it but do think it is better than our definition of storehouse. Maybe that is all I need to know?

ya, took me a while to figure out “storehouse” myself, although its so intuitive idk why
id describe it more, but you might come up with a better definition

 

[Robert Gwin]

I do get what you are saying. But to me the focus still being money there maybe hides another definition of getting rich or compensated for the Word of God. Which Kenneth Copeland’s might be obvious, the other might be less obvious “overcharging”. For example the word “overcharge” below
2 Corinthians 2:1-10 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. [2] For if I make you sorry, who is he then that makes me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? [3] And I wrote this same unto you, unless, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. [4] For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. [5] But if any have caused grief, he has not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. [6] Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. [7] So that contrariwise you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up (overcharged?)with overmuch sorrow. [8] Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. [9] For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether you be obedient in all things. [10] To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

What is the topic above of overcharging?
The Pharisees stink of money and greed to us, yea? As those you listed today stink of greed and money, yea? But to me getting rich off the word could also be how the Pharisees were drunk on power as keepers and regulators and tellers of what others must do.(could be the church having nothing to do with money in “overcharging”…Interesting is Luke 19:41-42 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [42] Saying, If you had known, even you, at least in this your day, the things which belong unto your peace! but now they are hid from your eyes.

Point is I guess is: (Imo) I could have no money and still “get rich(higher) off the word” by “overcharging” consider Isaiah 65:4-5 in regards to overcharging “Which remain among the graves(I see lurking among graves,Luke 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.) , and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; [5] Which say, Stand by yourself, come not near to me; for I am holier than you.(overcharging another?)These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all the day.

We still do not charge for spreading the word of God, as seen that is up to individuals to determine what if anything they will give. We: (2 Corinthians 2:17) . . .are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are, but we speak in all sincerity as sent from God, yes, in the sight of God and in company with Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

I know that tithing has been used sometimes as a form of guilt tripping church members into "not robbing" from God's House, but in actuality, the pastor and the church is robbing themselves of ever knowing God's unspeakable gift of providing by raising up cheerful givers just what the church needs in ministry.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:..........15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

So when He provides sparingly, He will be reaping sparingly.....when He provides bountifully, He will be reaping bountifully. It is really nobody's business except between you & the Lord for how much you give, and how you give it.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Many give to get tax deductions; and that is okay, but Jesus did say that you have done it before men and have already received your reward. There is a better way to give which is anonymously, but that is a challenge in these latter days.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Those who give to church, should first consider giving to family members in need, especially the widows. The church back then used to take care of members that are widowed that have no children to take care of them. We do not see that today.

Before a church or pastor gives judgment on any not giving at all....that is not their place to judge when a pastor has a salary and benefits and a pension that others hardly have. And that is a poor attitude and an example of lack of faith in God providing for them to have. Who should believe a pastor in his sermon that God will provide for them when his "dependence" is on the church members to "tithe" and keep their pledges of giving, and blow off steam about believers robbing from God's church? This is what James was talking about in James 2nd chapter when the church was abusing the poor by sending them away after service. expressing their faith in God's Providence to provide for the poor and yet gave them nothing from the bounty collected after church service. That is the faith in God's Providence that was dead and that faith in His Providence will not "profit" the poor nor save the poor when the church is hardly living by example in having faith in God's Providence.

We need not brow beat members into tithing or giving, and neither should any one be brow beating members for tithing and giving for they know not what they do.

We really should not be making pledges to give because we do not know what tomorrow will bring, and believers are warned about just making plans for tomorrow.

James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

If a giver falls in hard times, then they will not only sin by boasting of tomorrow but also breaking a pledge to give. You are not bound to give so that you feel you have to give. God will provide for the church. The church may claim necessity to know what's coming in to plan ahead, but since a pledge is not a guarantee and they can only operate on what has been received, then it is really vain and superficial to be asking for or giving a pledge to give. So ask the Lord to forgive you for pledging to set you free and give cheerfully what you want to give next time the collection plate comes around.

Oh... and forgive the pastor & the church for making you tithe and make pledges of giving, even if they refuse correction. Trust the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd to help you discern if He wants you to stay or not.

Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Pastors/churches/religion are cashing in on the deception of pre-trib rapture = "give everything because Jesus is coming any day now."

 

[marksman]

It may help to ask what was your take away from the OP? I think I posted that in 2017 and then today in 2023 I’m not sure how I felt in 2017. I don’t tithe 10 percent income to a church mostly because I haven’t been blessed with money. Struggling to get it myself. As a wife my main income has come from my husband. I would be lying if I denied how I wish I made a large salary and had been a major contributor financially. I wish money came easily for me where I had no need or worry for money because people were lining up saying that I deserved a large paying salary. I’m 53 and the most I’ve been paid at a job is minimum wage because I really don’t have any rare talents. But that is not to say I don’t wish I had developed some over the years to where I could easily get a great paying job. Funny, maybe not funny but disturbing to me is having MS …my later years have become more relevant to me (what if I get to where I can’t walk?) and because of this I checked on disability. They said I’m not “insured” for disability because I have not paid in enough or consistently enough to receive it. This is all scary to me, yes, because I didn’t build or plan much for the future. Point is…not to cry poor pitiful me but to be honest, it does bother me. Money definitely has become more relevant to me as a necessary thing to think about. But still…I don’t (Imo) think God was ever talking about money in Malachi 3:8-11.

Point is it seems as if your take away from the OP calls for a correction. What was your take away?

Quite right. it wasn't about money

 

[marksman]

Tithing is taught because the leadership has to finance a church that is not the church. In the NT there were no buildings or pastors to pay for. Everyone did what they did because they loved one another. They did not need to be paid to do that. And the leadership of the church. apostles, prophets and Elders (no pastors) were not brought in from outside to run things.

When you get the basics wrong everything else tends to be wrong.

 

[marksman]

One of the aspects of the NT Church was its support for widows, orphans, and the needy. I take my cue from this and most of my giving supports ministries that are doing the same thing. Ministries where the only income people have is what that ministry gives them.

 

[marksman]

I don’t even remember posting this very long post. I Can’t remember why? Or what the point was? It does however help me see how others would say “your post are way too long”. I get their point.

If you don't remember does that mean you did not write it someone else did?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If you don't remember does that mean you did not write it someone else did?

I didn’t write it. It was: An excerpt from “The American Dream” chapter 16:

What I can’t remember though is why I felt it needed a thread and why that excerpt was important to me at the time. My reasoning for posting it. That is bad yea? I can’t remember it at all.