Tough Texts for Calvinists

[Steve Owen]

As a person who has been anointed to teach by the Holy Spirit, I would like to thank you for a fine body of work that you have done. Regardless of whether one agrees with it or not, it has certainly laid the groundwork for an in-depth study of the subject matter and that is most welcome primarily because we get so little of it here.

I shall bookmark your posts so that I can look at it further in an effort to expand my knowledge. Well done and may I say until one has done this, to criticise you is somewhat banal.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Candidus]

Arthur W. Pink and William Jefferson Clinton could spend hours defining what the word "is" is! By the time they are done, things will be so twisted that the word will have no meaning at all!

 

[Joseph77]

""Let the weak say I am strong" in Jesus, not in themselves, as written.
The little children, not the scholars, shall lead...
The sheep are defenseless creatures against the many wolves all around...
Only the Shepherd's CONSTANT CARE OF US protects us and keeps us guarded in Himself, His Way, in Perfect Peace (this is one sure sign we are His, even a sign to our enemies that we are sheep of JESUS! ) ...

The weakest member is protected by Jesus, the Perfect Shepherd, and is safe from those demons,
and delivered by Jesus when there is or was or has been trouble and deception.

The educated ones? If they do not give up everything also, they don't have a chance. (as written in Scripture, the Father HIDES SALVATION from them)"

 

[FollowHim]

2 Peter 3:16. ‘……Some things hard to understand…….’

On another thread, @DNB wrote that there were certain texts which appear to contradict the teaching of Definite Atonement. I thought it might be good to look at some of these, so I am going to give two such texts and then open the discussion out for others.

The first text is 1 John 2:2.

1 John 2:2 (NIV). ‘He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.’

1 John 2:2 (AV). ‘And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.’

1 John 2:2 (NKJV). ‘And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the whole world.’

The argument of those who uphold a General Redemption is that since the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of ‘the whole world,’ He cannot have died for the Elect alone. They assume that the Greek word kosmos, which has the basic meaning of ‘the created order,’ must mean here ‘all the people in the world.’ There is no firm evidence for that; kosmos has a variety of meanings in the New Testament. But whatever it means here, it cannot mean ‘all the people in the world,’ since the Bible teaches very clearly that God is actually not propitiated towards everyone in the world without exception. ‘He who believes is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God’ (John 3:18). So God is not propitious towards unbelievers. Is it possible that our Lord Jesus would make a propitiation that would fail? One that would not propitiate the Father? Surely not! ‘For I always do the things that please Him’ (John 8:29).

Jesus dying for the whole world was stated probably because the atoning sacrifice in the temple was only for Israel.
You had to be a Israelite for it to count. Jesus on the other hand, is the atoning sacrifice for all those who call out in faith.

In a sense though this sacrifice only has value for those who claim it for them by faith. The rest are still judged for their sin.
Some do extend the atonement for everyone to say all sin is now forgiven, past, present and future.

This position then means salvation is based on faith and judgement to the lake of fire also. Some calvanists go this far, while others would call this heresy. It supports the notion that even if you lose your faith and live a life of sin you are still saved no matter what, because sin is resolved and it is faith alone that saves. Except this is faith caught in time.

Some argue to not say faith caught in time saves, if you lose faith you lose salvation, which devalues Jesus's saving grace.
But if Jesus's grace was to purchase a people after His will and heart, to walk away is a denial of its value or its reality.
But is God real, dwelling in our hearts, or is this all fake, with a blip of faith, which is enough for God to roll back to that time and save for eternity that individual. But surely the test of real faith is that it does not die, and lasts till the believer dies, else it has failed the test of perseverance and reality. If faith cannot last a few years, how will it last eternity with the Lord?

What believers seem to get wrong is differentiating our communion with Jesus today from our communion with Him face to face. The same realities in our hearts speak, like a all relationships we have here and now, either face to face or at a distance. Either they work in both situations or in neither. God bless you

 

[JunChosen]

To all,

Most people (so called confessing Christians) do NOT really understand salvation!

They say that faith without works it’s impossible to become saved. My question: “If this is true, why then do they need to exercise faith?” In fact, this belief is foreign to the Bible.

Romans 3:9-12 reads:
9) What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who then can be saved?

Jesus in John 6:44 said: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).

The above are the only scriptures that I know whereby anyone can become saved!!!

Furthermore, Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, illustrates the condition of those who have become saved in Romans Chapter 7 and in vv 24 and 25 cries out:

24) O wretched man that I am who can deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There are those who believe that Jesus only paid the past sins ot the individual but don’t realize that the “wages of sin (singular) is death.” That means the individual must pay for future sins he commits and this is impossible.

As long as we are in this body we will continue to lust after sin.

The above scriptures and many like them are the only criteria in which man can become saved.

To God Be The Glory

 

[marksman]

Arthur W. Pink and William Jefferson Clinton could spend hours defining what the word "is" is! By the time they are done, things will be so twisted that the word will have no meaning at all!

So!!!! What is your point?

 

[DPMartin]

Hi Steve, hermenuetic rule #1, when one is required to do an in-depth analysis of a single word, in order to qualify their interpretation of the text, they entirely miscomprehended the overall principle being conveyed. The Bible never imparts a doctrine in such an isolated manner, that it comes down to referring to the etymology of a word, or all its derivatives, in order to rightly divide God's Word. In other words, the principle will be found in several areas of the Bible, written in various manners. One word does not define a doctrine, ever. And the first sign of bad exegesis, is the attempt to establish a doctrine based on the meaning of a word. Doctrines are established by the wisdom of God, when one can understand the reasons why God has ordained a principle, then one should be able to speak on a fundamental level of the soundness and wisdom of the principle. And not be required to break down a verse, word by word.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to abrogate the Law, which was the sole purpose of his death. Once the Law ended, condemnation for all men ceased, as where there is no Law, there is no sin. But now, God has implemented a new Law that binds all men to its adherence, the Law of Faith. God showed favouratism in the Old Covenant, for the sake of favouratism, in order that He may eventually show mercy to all men. We were once in an exclusive Covenant, but now it is inclusive. The principle of the Elect, defies this mandate.

the law never ended, what ended is its requirement for men to fulfill it to God's satisfaction. But God is no fool He knows very well no one can fulfill the law, long before He gave it to Moses. the was never for man to fulfill once Adam lost the Life God gave Adam. the law's principle purpose was to witness to its fulfillment in Christ. its stupid to think God is stupid to give law to condemn what was condemned to dust to dust and ashes to ashes already.

the world being for given through Jesus, hence Jesus' right to judge it, simply by the faithful and otherwise.


Joh 8:15　 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.　
Joh 8:16　 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.　

and:


Joh_12:47　 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh_12:48　 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

note that Jesus is the Word.

the great wisdom of God is simple, one shall experience the result of one's own judgement, unless you are chosen to experience God's Judgement. (therefore judge not and so forth) which is Life. you will experience your own judgement and its not God's Judgement.

 

[atpollard]

Most people (so called confessing Christians) do NOT really understand salvation!

Nothing makes a person want to hear what you have to say like a strong opening that claims “I am smart and you all are ignorant, so listen up!” ...

 

[atpollard]

So!!!! What is your point?

Those authors make good reading when sleep eludes you?

 

[mjrhealth]

Why are christians still on about the law, after Penetcost is its all about the Spirit, why are you all still stuck in the OT. The Law no longer condemned the Jews, and it never condemned the gentiles.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

it is the Holy Spirit that convicts men, not the law, but as Jesus put it,

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The new wine, how can one make it any clearer

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

[Steve Owen]

it is the Holy Spirit that convicts men, not the law, but as Jesus put it,

The Holy Spirit convicts men that they do not keep the law. That is the meaning of Galatians 3:24.

 

[DNB]

the law never ended, what ended is its requirement for men to fulfill it to God's satisfaction. But God is no fool He knows very well no one can fulfill the law, long before He gave it to Moses. the was never for man to fulfill once Adam lost the Life God gave Adam. the law's principle purpose was to witness to its fulfillment in Christ. its stupid to think God is stupid to give law to condemn what was condemned to dust to dust and ashes to ashes already.

the world being for given through Jesus, hence Jesus' right to judge it, simply by the faithful and otherwise.


Joh 8:15　 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.　
Joh 8:16　 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.　

and:


Joh_12:47　 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh_12:48　 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

note that Jesus is the Word.

the great wisdom of God is simple, one shall experience the result of one's own judgement, unless you are chosen to experience God's Judgement. (therefore judge not and so forth) which is Life. you will experience your own judgement and its not God's Judgement.

Jesus ended the Law, no more shall anyone be judged by the Law of Works. Now, we are under the Law of faith.
Nothing that God implements will be to no avail. Christ fulfilled the Law, therefore, was able to both end it, and give Glory to God for His perfect Law, and for demanding that man obey it - in complete refutation to what you attempted to affirm.

DPMartin, I barely understood a word that you said, to the point that I am convinced that English is not your first language. I'm not being disparaging if you are ESL, but I am, if you're not. Because, you just blurted out a bunch of seemingly important principles, but that could not be followed, in order to even comment on.
But, from what I was able to extract from what you said, I deem as as complete and utter nonsense, entirely.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Holy Spirit convicts men that they do not keep the law. That is the meaning of Galatians 3:24.

No HE does not, always running back to the old.

 

[Waiting on him]

No HE does not, always running back to the old.

Or subscription too something that was never given them

 

[DNB]

Arthur W. Pink and William Jefferson Clinton could spend hours defining what the word "is" is! By the time they are done, things will be so twisted that the word will have no meaning at all!

A very important and fundamental point!
Not one single tenet of God's Word, is ever derived or established by a single word, ever!
And when one attempts to, they have rendered the passage either so ambiguous, or so restrictive, to such a degree, that it barely has any semblance to what it was originally meant to impart. That is, they entirely overlooked the context!

 

[marksman]

Those authors make good reading when sleep eludes you?

I like that idea.

 

[Steve Owen]

No HE does not, always running back to the old.

Hmmm. I thought Galatians was in the New Testament.
The Holy Spirit does not convict true Christians that they do not keep the law, because that law is already written on their hearts in the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:3; Hebrews 8:10) and it is their delight to keep it. It is (or should be) used by preachers to convict the ungodly.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hmmm. I thought Galatians was in the New Testament.
The Holy Spirit does not convict true Christians that they do not keep the law, because that law is already written on their hearts in the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:3; Hebrews 8:10) and it is their delight to keep it. It is (or should be) used by preachers to convict the ungodly.

If a preacher convicts anyone He is only convicting Himself, that is not His job.

And the only thing Christ ever asked us to do was Love, if it is not enough, well than HE is not enough.

 

[Steve Owen]

Arthur W. Pink and William Jefferson Clinton could spend hours defining what the word "is" is! By the time they are done, things will be so twisted that the word will have no meaning at all!

I have nothing to say about Bill Clinton, but concerning Arthur Pink, if you really think that of him, then unless you are dyslexic, I rather think that you have never read anything by him:

'The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails, given by one Shepherd' (Ecclesiastes 12:11). I know verse 12 goes on to say that 'much study is wearisome to the flesh' but Christians are led by the Spirit and should not be wearied by studying the word of God with the help of wise scholars.

 

[Steve Owen]

And the only thing Christ ever asked us to do was Love,

John 14:15.