True Story

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Webers_Home

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When I was a young single guy of 24 years old in 1968, and living solo in a
tiny rented room in a family home's daylight basement in Portland Oregon; I
had lots of time to myself to think about things since I had no friends, nor
any kind of social contact whatsoever other than at work. I wasn't distracted
with a girl friend, nor by pals and beer buddies, nor by an obsessive hobby.
It was just me, my 1961 Volkswagen, and a 305 Honda motorcycle that I
rode all over northwest Oregon. One of the things that occupied my thoughts
a lot was hell and the very real possibility of my going there.

At the time, I was working as a welder in a large metal shop located in an
old WW2 Kaiser shipyard located in Vancouver Washington on the banks of
the Columbia River. The layout man was a Protestant minister who, one day,
out of the blue, asked me if I was ready for Christ's return.

Well, I had never been taught about that in Catholic catechism so I asked
the man why Christ would want to return. He responded: to rule the world. I
had mixed emotions to the man's reply: I was half afraid and half indignant
to be made afraid. But I instinctively knew that were I subpoenaed to stand
before Christ to answer for the things I had done in life, it would not go well
for me.

Anyway I demanded of the man to know where he got his information. He
replied: from the Bible. So I informed him that I was a Catholic and trusted
only Rome's version of the Bible. He responded that all Bibles say pretty
much the same thing; which was news to me since in those days the Church
insisted that Protestant Bibles were unreliable.

Then he asked me the million dollar question: Would I be going to heaven
when I died? I responded, in so many words; that I had no clue. And he
replied: Don't you believe Christ died for you?

BANG! for the first time in my life; Christ's crucifixion made sense; and not
only made sense, but seemed a very possible ticket to heaven. In point of
fact, in an instant I was positive it was my ticket. Up till then I had always
thought of Christ as a sad victim of circumstances beyond his control; never
dreaming his ordeal made an acquittal possible.

In time; the man suggested that I come with him to his church and make a
public profession of my acceptance of Jesus' death on my behalf. So I went
with him and we informed the Pastor why I was there.

After the service was over, and the people had left; the Pastor and I, plus
my friend and an elder, went down to the rail in front of the stage; where I
prayed a very simple, naïve prayer that went something like this:

"Lord, I'm a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's death."

While saying my brief, unrehearsed prayer, I became strangely aware of a
heavy chair just in front of the rail, suspended maybe about four feet up in
the air, and a bit off to the left side, with a lone figure sitting on it looking in
my direction.

I couldn't really make out the face, but the person wearing that face was
just sitting there, silently, neither moving nor uttering a sound while intently
observing me speak every single syllable of my childish prayer. I was
thoroughly unraveled, and could hardly wait to get up and get out of there. I
told no one what happened, and the scene I perceived vanished as quietly,
and as suddenly, as it had appeared.

The human mind is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue,
and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes.
It's very likely that the scene I perceived in front of the rail was the result of
emotional stress that pushed my flabby little mind into imagining things;
who really knows for sure? But I will always be fully persuaded that at that
very moment, the Bible's God made Himself real to me in such a way as to
convince me that I no longer had anything to fear from the wrath of God.

Believe me when I tell you I was overwhelmed with immense relief-- to the
point of weeping uncontrollably like a man condemned to the guillotine
suddenly given a 12th hour pardon --because the one thing Rome had
succeeded in instilling in my heart was a dread fear of hell. Having the
assurance I need no longer fear going there has been the happiest happy
thought that to this day has ever gone through my mind; and I know for
myself, by personal experience; that the passage below is true and reliable.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . .The Spirit himself corroborates with our spirit that we are
God's children.

I never told either of my parents any of this. They were impious brutes who
would have surely mocked and laughed me to scorn as a superstitious
lummox gone mad from spending too much time alone.

Anyway; in time I learned that Christ's version of Christianity is a lethal
religion. It quite literally, in some supernatural way that I don't quite
understand; put Christ's believing followers to death. Their entire existence,
as natural-born human beings, went up on the cross with him.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

One of my biggest fears as a Roman Catholic was that something fatal would
happen to me in between confessions. Well; you can just imagine my relief
at discovering that people punished on the cross with Christ are in no danger
of double jeopardy; which Webster's defines as: putting someone on trial for
an offense for which they have previously been put on trial under a valid
charge viz: two adjudications for one offense.

The Great White throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is for the purpose of
putting people on trial for the things they did in life. Afterwards their lives
will be terminated by death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of
molten iron.

If I appear at that event at all, it will be only as a spectator and/or a witness
for the prosecution because I was put on trial for the things I do in life when
Christ was put on the cross, and my life was terminated when his was
terminated. I have no clue how this works; I only know that I'm supposed to
reckon it true. (Rom 6:3-11)

Christ offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments
proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human
nature proof, human error proof, mortal sin proof, fail-safe rescue from the
wrath of God and full time protection from retribution. It just amazes me the
number of people, even those warming pews in old-school Christian
churches, who want nothing to do with it.

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TopherNelson

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Once you are born-again, the seed of God is planted in you. You would not want to sin!
God is the same yesterday, today and forever! He hate sins! But while we were still helpless, Christ died for us. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. If we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

So my friends, let brotherly love continue, as it does no evil. The greatest commandments is to love God and love thy neighbors! That is the ticket to heaven. Follow Christ and love! The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Shalom,
David
 

Webers_Home

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Roman Catholicism, like so many other religions, is very insecure. I never
knew for sure from one day to the next where I'd be after passing on. Well;
that's not the kind of Christianity taught in the New Testament. For
example:

†. 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks
you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in Peter's requirement is elpis (el
pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with
confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and
confidence.

In other words: the kind of hope about which Peter wrote doesn't anxiously
cross its fingers while in the back of its mind dreading the worst. Elpis isn't a
hope-so hope, no; elpis is a know-so hope.

Ironically Peter, upon whom the Roman church is supposedly built, took elpis
hope for granted; while the Church condemns it.

Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16: If anyone says that he
will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift
of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a
special revelation, let him be anathema.

Seeing as how Rome's followers are not permitted to have elpis hope, then
its pretty much a foregone conclusion that they can't obey Peter's directive
to explain the reason for having it.

While Christ's statements may not qualify as "special" revelations, they are,
nevertheless, revelations; and according to Christ, those who trust his
revelations, have nothing to fear.

Note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in his revelations below. It's
present tense, rather than future, indicating that people who believe in
Christ's revelations have eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting
period.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 5:24 . .I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from death into life.

Eternal life is impervious to death; therefore eternal life is impervious to the
wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life
through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christ mentioned passing from death into life (John 5:24).

Well; people slated to die for their sins in the lake of brimstone depicted at
Rev 20:10-15 won't be passing into life after that death. No, they will stay
dead because there is no resurrection associated with the lake.

But those of us who underwent crucifixion for our sins as per Rom 6:3, Rom
6:6, Gal 2:20, and Col 3:3 don't stay dead; no, we don't, and that's because
Christ didn't stay dead; viz: there is a resurrection associated with the cross.

Those who die with Christ, are reckoned risen with him. And seeing as how
Christ will never again be put to death for sins, then those risen with him will
never again be put to death for sins. (Rom 6:3-11)

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epostle1

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There you go again, Cliff, bashing Catholicism based on a grade 8 level of catechesis from around 1958, and a poor one at that.
"Well, I had never been taught about that in Catholic catechism so I asked
the man why Christ would want to return...
Just because you were not paying attention, or the Second Coming was not part of grade 8 religion class curriculum, does not mean it isn't there.

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628
1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630
1042[SIZE=13.3333px] At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:[/SIZE]

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633
[SIZE=10.6667px]630 [/SIZE]Titus[SIZE=10.6667px] 2:13; [/SIZE]2 Thess[SIZE=10.6667px] 1:10.[/SIZE]
631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
[SIZE=10.6667px]575 Cf. [/SIZE]Lk[SIZE=10.6667px] 21:12; [/SIZE]Jn[SIZE=10.6667px] 15:19-20.[/SIZE]
576 Cf. 2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22.
577 Cf. DS 3839.
578 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
579 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
580 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
581 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pet 3:12-13.

BANG! for the first time in my life; Christ's crucifixion made sense;
And everything the Church tried to teach you before that point in time made no sense, and your epiphany of Christ's crucifixion was the result of a Protestant pastor/layout man, and you want me to believe the Church had nothing to do with anything preparatory that lead to that point. I don't think so.
One of my biggest fears as a Roman Catholic was that something fatal would
happen to me in between confessions.


And you were too afraid to discuss this problem with a priest yet courageous enough to go to confession?? Your fears were a mental problem, not a religious one. Stop blaming it on the Church.
 

epostle1

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Webers_Home said:
-
Roman Catholicism, like so many other religions, is very insecure. I never
knew for sure from one day to the next where I'd be after passing on. Well;
that's not the kind of Christianity taught in the New Testament. For
example: blah, blah, blah...


Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16:

Seeing as how Rome's followers are not permitted to have elpis hope, then
its pretty much a foregone conclusion that they can't obey Peter's directive
to explain the reason for havin
g it. blah, blah, blah...


What a pack of lies! First you go on about "hope" and twist it into absolute assurance. Then you contrast it with an out-of-context snippet from a 500 year old document that has been reformulated. Protestants are constantly bickering about "once saved always saved" or "guaranteed salvation" or "infused justification" so when you guys get your act together then maybe we can have a dialogue. Oh, wait a minute, we already did that with the Lutherans. You can read about it here:
Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16. Is this the only council you can quote? You have it on several forums and more than once in the "Why I Had to Apostatize" thread, and you are too proud to take correction. You have a Trent fixation.

From the Council of Trent that you can't see:
CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE NATURE OF THAT MERIT

Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.[93]
For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;[94] and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.[95]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]

For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.[98]

For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:

If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.[101]

Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves,[102] nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is [the justice] of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward;[103] and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;[104] nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord,[105] whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

And since in many things we all offend,[106] each one ought to have before his eyes not only the mercy and goodness but also the severity and judgment [of God]; neither ought anyone to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything;[107] because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged not by the judgment of man but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God,[108] who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.[109]

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add to these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun....
33 canons followed.

This was posted in response to your abused quote here #63, but since it is outside of your microscopic field, you are unable to see it, I'm sure you will post the same paragraph over and over again. It won't matter how many times your senseless Catholic bashing is refuted, you will just keep misquoting Trent.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn't want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won't know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives Weber-Home less assurance of his salvation. It necessarily imposes upon him uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. (contrary to Webers haughty opinions)

We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists, such as Webers-Home, doesn't even know whether it is his to begin with.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation.

How can you grow up to something you already possess?
 

Webers_Home

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I attended Catholic catechism as a youth roughly 60 years ago in the decade
of the 1950's. My siblings and I were not given the full blown catechism to
study. We were given little handbooks that contained just enough
information to get us past First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

As a result, the difference between immortality and eternal life was never
explained because that was information we didn't need to know in order to
pass First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Maybe things are different
now: I wouldn't know, nor do I care to know.

Immortality always refers to a supernatural body that's impervious to aging,
death, and putrefaction. As such, immortality is something that Christ's
believing followers expect to obtain sometime in the future rather than the
present.

†. Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan
inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our
bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at
all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not
yet have, we wait for it patiently.

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in that passage is elpis (el pece')
which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure); and to expect with
confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, expectation, and confidence.

In other words: elpis hope isn't a cross-your-fingers kind of hope. It's a kind
of hope that looks forward to something as a sure thing,.

So then, people crossing their fingers, while in the backs of their minds
dreading the worst; do not have elpis hope. They simply have a longing for
something better, but with absolutely no assurance whatsoever of obtaining it.

Eternal life, on the other hand; has nothing to do with the nature of a
supernatural body, but rather, the psychological nature of a divine being.

I am a human being; hence I have the psychological nature of a human
being. God is a divine being, hence He has the psychological nature of a
divine being.

Christ had the psychological nature of a divine being before he got here.

†. John 5:26 . . Just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the
Son also to have life in Himself

†. 1 John 1:2 . .The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we
proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared
to us.

Clearly then; eternal life isn't physical because before he came to the earth,
Christ was spirit as per John 1:1-3.

The psychological nature of human life was created as per the book of
Genesis. But the psychological nature of eternal life wasn't created; it
couldn't be created because eternal life is the life of God; the divine being who
never had a beginning; viz: God always was, God always is, and God always
will be.

So then, the possession of eternal life doesn't make one a divine being, nor
does it make one an eternal being. It only equips them with the
psychological nature of God; which is pretty amazing itself.

Is what I'm saying true? Well; Peter seemed to think so.

†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.

I don't know if the nuns who taught my catechism classes knew any and/or
all of the stuff that I've composed here because they never mentioned it. But
even if they had, I was doubtless too young at the time to digest it.

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