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Featured Trying to be saved through religion

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Phil 3:4-11
    4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
    5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
    6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    The above is Paul’s former relationship with God through religion.

    7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
    9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
    10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
    11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
    NKJV

    Today a person’s righteousness comes from faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross where He, Jesus, paid for all the sins of mankind. -- This is the message that should be preached in the churches. But it isn’t.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If only you didn't deny the veracity (applicability?) of the epistle of James, you would have more power with people, my friend.

    I do believe that what you have said in the post above is absolute truth.
     
  3. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    God does not lie. The Holy Spirit had James write to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. IMHO, to say it is written to the Gentiles under grace makes James 1-1 a lie.

    But you are welcome to think it is written to you if you wish but I do not think the Holy Spirit said it was written to me. Therefore I place no value on it for my relationship with God.
     
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  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I simply believe that all scripture is inspired and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

    So the epistle of James, being scripture, is useful for these things; even if I am a Gentile.

    It is inspired of the Holy Spirit; and we are not to ignore its contents and message to us.

    It seems to me that to do so would be to in effect take away from the word of the Lord. And there are heavy consequences for doing that permanently according to Revelation 22:19.

    God the Holy Spirit may be wanting to say something to you out of James' epistle; and because you don't think that it applies to you, you ignore His message. And the effect of this can be eternal. it may only affect your rewards; but for all you know, it might affect whether you spend eternity in heaven or in hell.

    For it is written in James that you are deceiving yourself if you are a hearer of the word only and not a doer.

    If you ignore this message, are you not more likely to deceive yourself in the manner presented?
     
  5. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes use threats to get me to change my mind.

    James clearly, teaches the law and we are not under the law. But if you wish to be under law then go to it.

    Yes all scripture is for us to see but not all is written to those under grace. You should know that. Perhaps you should go build a Temple so you can do all those things the scriptures teach the Jews to do.

    All scripture is for us BUT NOT ALL OF IT IS TO US.

    2 Tim 2:15
    15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed,"""rightly dividing the word of truth.""
    NKJV

    Personally I know what is written to us under grace.
     
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  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. However, even Paul preaches the law to a certain extent (Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Galatians 3:24-25).

    The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ; and it is also written on the hearts and in the minds of all those who are under the new covenant (see Hebrews 8:8-10). Love is the fulfilling of the law and is also shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost.

    Therefore as believers in Christ, who are new creatures in Christ (of whom the old is gone and all things have become new), we are obedient to the spirit of the law.

    We follow a pattern of holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

    Now what does it mean that we are not under the law?

    It means that because we are forgiven through Christ's shed blood of every sin (past, present, and future), the law no longer has the power to condemn us.

    But this does not mean that we are not governed by the precepts that define God's nature and character for us; which we are to follow.

    His very nature, defined by the law, is written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 10:16). His love is shed abroad in our hearts; and this is the fulfilling of the law within us (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4); in that we are governed by its precepts; though we are not under the law but under grace, in that there is now therefore no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 (kjv).

    Christians are not therefore a people who are disobedient to the law of the Lord. We are even under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). And also, we bear the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). And this indicates that, while we are not looking to obey a set of do's and don'ts, the fruit that we bear as those who abide in Christ amounts to us being law-abiding citizens in the kingdom of God.

    Furthermore, the righteousness that is given to us apart from the law, is attested to by the law and the prophets, that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21)!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    sin (the transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4) shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law but under grace, Romans 6:14.
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    James clearly teaches that *the Law* (meaning the Ten Commandments) is as valid and meaningful under the New Covenant as it was under the Old Covenant. Even more so, since the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to all believers to enable them to obey the Law of Love (the Law of Liberty, which is the Law of Christ). And James speaks of the New Birth thus:
    Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    So there is no need to misrepresent James, who was a servant of both God and the Lord Jesus Christ. The epistle of James is for all Christians.

    As for the OP the Bible is very clear that salvation (justification) is by grace through faith in Christ alone and His finished work of redemption. PLUS NOTHING. What James does is remind all Christians that if they claim that they have been thus saved, then they must demonstrate this through their good works.
     
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  9. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    What James, and those who use his book, are doing is to try and make those who are trusting in God's finished work on the cross go back under the works of the law.

    This thread is not about the book of James. Nor is it about me. It is about Paul's views about religion and the fact that he gave it all up and put his trust in Jesus's work on the cross.

    It is clear that Paul is saying works of religions will not save anyone. It is clear, AT LEAST TO ME, that those who agree that works do not save will out of the other side of their mouth say works are required and they can't even see that they are doing it.

    To continue to reply on this thread is to bury it under a lot of arguments. I am done on this thread.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    As I said before, James is not the only one who preaches the law.

    Rom 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Rom 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Rom 13:8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    Rom 13:9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Rom 13:10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Gal 5:14, For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    All of these scriptures come from the writings of Paul.
     
  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Of course works are required. Not for salvation but for sanctification.

    If this is not clear to you, then you should take a closer look at all the Scriptures pertaining to the works of those who have been saved.

    What James says is absolutely correct. Anyone who claims to have been saved by grace and has absolutely nothing to show for it it deluding himself.
     
  13. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You may be on dangerous ground. Jesus does expect us to do well. He did not die so we could be lazy and noncaring about others. We cannot earn salvation; but we can be grateful for it and show our gratitude for it. We need to be on guard then so this doesn't happen to us.

    Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Why did Jesus say this then?

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Good works are not unto sanctification but because of it.
     
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  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Being justified by simple faith in what Jesus did for us on the Cross, we will now carry a specific aroma that is hated by the world.

    Because of the fact that we are born again of the Holy Spirit, the world hates us; and this will result in persecution and trial and suffering at the hands of ungodly men. It is written,

    2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
    2Ti 3:11, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
    2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    2Ti 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    and,

    Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


    Persecution is not limited to the murders of Christians in the middle east. There are milder forms that deter lukewarm believers from even speaking up for their faith. The devil will use what he thinks will work. He deters some with milder forms; but if people are not deterred by these, he will come up with more severe forms which are largely done in secret by the Mental Health System in the United States. Persecution Complex and Religious Preoccupation are terms that define mental illness in psychology; and this is aimed at believers who take to heart such verses as what I quoted above (persecution complex) as well as Psalms 1 and 1 Peter 2:1-3 (religious preoccupation).

    Christians are taken in by police for witnessing their faith and then addicted to drugs. This is the primary form of persecution of real believers in the United States. In other countries, where psychiatry does not have sway, they resort to even more severe things like physical violence. But I would say that the former thing is still very severe; as it is an attack on the believer's assurance for him to believe that he is operating in a work of the flesh (witchcraft, translated from the Greek word pharmakeia; which is Strong's #5331 and means medication).

    But those who impose these things on believers are the practicers of witchcraft and not the believers themselves; the believers are merely victims; as the Greek word for witchcraft is derived from a word that means poisoner. Therefore, those who are being poisoned are not the practitioners of this work of the flesh; but those who prescribe and administer the medications are the ones guilty of this work of the flesh. I found out recently that there is not one of these medications that doesn't have a level of toxicity to it (I am praying that this will change in the near future: that someone might invent a remedy for mental illness that might be truly defined as medicine, i.e. something that is non-toxic and actually heals rather than merely covering up symptoms).

    There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ but who take their medication; because it is as if they were raped in a field: they cried out, but no one came to their rescue; and now they are married to their rapist because they cannot escape the Mental Health System; because it is too powerful. I continue to take poison into my own system, knowing that it is poison; because I do not feel that I have any capability of escaping the system the way that it is set up. They have the police on their side; and those who do not want to be "proselytized" do call the police on those who seek to win their souls; and the one seeking to win their soul is then determinedly addicted to poisonous drugs (we are set up by the system to be slow-poisoned to death).

    Jesus said,

    Mat 10:16, Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Am I supposed to seek approval of men, or God?
     
  17. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    And how am I to take up my cross, by doing works or placing my faith in Jesus' cross? When a person places their faith in Jesus' work on His cross they are taking up their cross because the religious will persecute them for doing it as they persecuted Paul and as they do on this and many other forums.

    Jesus said many things to the Jews who were under the Law but He gave Paul a gospel of God's grace that replaced the law. Why was it necessary? Because no man can keep the law and so He, Jesus, has made a way for the ungodly to be saved. The religious do not see that to place their faith in what they do is to refuse to place it in what Jesus has already done on the cross.

    I suppose it has escaped many that harp about doing good works that many do them to be seen by others that they are more sinless than others are. They think that because I do not promote good works that I do not have any. Why is their view welcomed by many??

    I do not sin any more than some others but I know I still sin. Therefore I do not tell others that they are required to keep the law of good works and not sin. It is a true saying that people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks. The religious think their good works, as one said, sanctify them but man can not sanctify himself. Only God can and He does it for those that will place their belief, trust, faith, and confidence in His work on the cross where He paid for their sins of the flesh.

    1 Cor 6:11
    11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    NKJV

    No one can sanctify themselves by what they do. To think they can is to refuse to accept that Jesus has already done it. and therefore place their faith in what they do. I pray that they will see religious works will not save them.
     
  18. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 6:11
    11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    NKJV

    Only God can sanctify a person.
     
  19. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    So you can simply sit on your hands and do nothing???? No wonder you hate the epistle of James.
     
  20. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    ,
    I am glad you said this, as opposed to what HR said... The finished work of the cross. Redemption wasn't completed at Calvary.
     
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