Understanding Parable and Allegory in God's Word

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bbyrd009

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Certainly an interesting idea. But...if I may...doesn't the 'try believing in a doctrine exactly opposite to what you currently believe to see if it changes anything' presuppose that belief and the resulting circumstances from following that belief, is but subjective?
well miss n i might ask you to name a single objective absolute truth from Scripture, but since that is apparently heard...um with protestant ears usually lol, maybe i can ask what circumstances have changed when you flip your current belief in Trinity, for example? And the ones about the past or the future meh for now
Whereas, if, when reading the bible, we understand something to be communicated by God as truth, it becomes not subjective to us or from us, but a reality set in stone by the very one who created all.
could you provide an example?
Therefore it is not a matter of how the outcome effects us; if believing in the Trinity or not somehow makes our lives more meaningful; it is simply correct because it is how God has revealed himself to us.
man, i guess its maybe the asperger's, but i see about four diff directions i could take off on here; dont we form beliefs in anticipation of outcomes?

If ones life is made more meaningful, isnt that an outcome?

Isn't it possible that something that is correct for you may not be correct for me?
Has anyone, ever, seen God?
We should not, then, question that revelations validity based only on our response to it, or how it impacts our life, we ought to respond to it in thankfulness and awe...that our Father and creator has revealed something of himself to us, that previously we might not have perceived.
Do you not think?
ok well first i'd hafta ask for a rephrase, bc thankfulness and awe strike me as a response to it that likely impacts our life, but reply two would be that i completely agree, thankfulness and awe would be awesome, whereas maybe expecting everyone else to accept the revelation as AT, even demanding that, maybe not so much. Whats wrong with you believing something different from me anyway? At least as far as most of our "beliefs" are concerned, them being about the past or the future?

And if you have any "beliefs" about the present, isnt another name for those "theories?" If you...no, wait, if i believe that i can handle rattlesnakes and not get bitten/poisoned by them, but i do, what then does my belief amount to but a bad theory proven wrong? (Not saying that the v is wrong, understand, just obv misunderstood)
 
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bbyrd009

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ive recently come to um "believe" that the scientific method is from God, and even installed in Scripture, remarked upon by Paul, test everything...
 

Naomi25

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well miss n i might ask you to name a single objective absolute truth from Scripture, but since that is apparently heard...um with protestant ears usually lol, maybe i can ask what circumstances have changed when you flip your current belief in Trinity, for example? And the ones about the past or the future meh for now
You and I have been down this road before, and it has not ended well. Mostly because I struggle to understand you. But, out of respect, I'll give it another go.
Okay, some objective truths....

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 17:17 - Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.


In point of fact, the gospel of John is so chocka-block full of 'truth' statements I could spend all day posting them. But let's, for the sake of the conversation, just consider those two.
Jesus is saying here that HE is THE only way to God. To salvation. There is no other path. That makes him and his message THE truth.
Again, in the next verse, he tells us that God's word...something that is often used to describe Christ, by the way, IS truth. Not a truth, but truth itself. And that as Christ's followers, we are to be sanctified in and by this truth.
Now, I would say that regardless of how we come to those two passages; how we feel about them or the world, there is just no wiggling around them. Christ IS the ONLY way to salvation, and it is through God's word, which Paul tells us is all: "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness",that we may grow in our walk with Christ. That basically covers salvation and sanctification...which is everything this particular life holds for us.

could you provide an example?

Well...there are the verses above, obviously. But since you were also speaking of the Trinity, let's briefly look at some verses about that.

John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.”

John 17:11 - And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, And I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”


Okay, so, we see Jesus claiming that he and the Father are one. Now...if we stop and consider the attributes of God and how therefore Christ is also claiming those attributes; but at the same time we see throughout scripture that he speaks to the Father as a very separate individual...his Father! Then the conclusion is the Trinity. How else can Christ make a claim to hold omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence? Or to have been eternally present; the Great I AM?

man, i guess its maybe the asperger's, but i see about four diff directions i could take off on here; dont we form beliefs in anticipation of outcomes?
Hey! A fellow ASD! And yes, of course we form beliefs, and of course what we believe effects us. But the fallacy of today is that we get to choose what beliefs are true and therefore what effects us. Think of the cascade of fake news these days. People are not particularly interested in finding out what is truth or not; they are quite content with listening to those news agencies that report on things from the perspective they take already. It makes them feel righteous about their beliefs and causes and they feel justified in the behaviors it pushes them too. But none of it is, or may be, based on truth. Because the fact is; black is black, white it white. There IS a truth and a not truth. Truth is not based upon feeling or personal perception.
And so, as Christians, when we read Christ telling us that His word is truth. That he is the way, the truth and the life; we either believe his words, and therefore the rest of the bible's words, which are God's words; or we dimiss them in favour for our own internal tuning fork; which I submit is pretty much what Eve did in the garden. 'Don't worry God; I got this'.


If ones life is made more meaningful, isnt that an outcome?

Isn't it possible that something that is correct for you may not be correct for me?
Has anyone, ever, seen God?

I'm sorry, but no...no I don't think the sum of our lives it simply to have it made more meaningful. That is what every person strives for, but outside of God, they miss the mark. That's why they keep looking and keep missing. They keep trying to fill a God-sized hole with other stuff. The ONLY thing that will fill that hole is God...and not what we decide God is, or what we decide God is telling us; but what he truly is and what he truly is telling us. Otherwise its just another human fabrication, at base, isn't it?

And I'm sure there are many, many things in life that can be true and correct for you and not for me; and that can be...must be, embraced! But not about God; when we can look to his own word given to us, and find that truth about himself...that which he has revealed to us that we might know. What was the point of him sending such things if we were not to use it to know?
And as far as anyone 'seeing God'...well, the Father? No...except, I suppose we could say Moses saw the back of his cloak...and it made his face shine so much he had to cover it with sack...and he still scared the Israelite's to death. Cool story! But other than that....we can say that all the people beholding Christ saw 'God'. We are told that: "Hebrews 1:3 - He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"
Jesus came, so that we might know God, and know him personally! We don't need to speculate or have God different for each of us. The bible tells us he never changes; that means his love and faithfulness, displayed in Christ, is steady forever.

ok well first i'd hafta ask for a rephrase, bc thankfulness and awe strike me as a response to it that likely impacts our life, but reply two would be that i completely agree, thankfulness and awe would be awesome, whereas maybe expecting everyone else to accept the revelation as AT, even demanding that, maybe not so much. Whats wrong with you believing something different from me anyway? At least as far as most of our "beliefs" are concerned, them being about the past or the future?
Sorry about the phrasing. I think I was just trying to say that our response to scripture should not be based solely upon our feelings and how our understanding of it impacts our happiness.
But of course we experience responses to scripture, but our responses ought to be based only in reaction to our recognition of the truth God is revealing to us. Which is wonderful and amazing and should, and do, create incredible feelings.
Um...let me try and explain it like this: a wife might feel incredibly loved if her husband always showered her with flowers and gifts. But if the truth was that he only did that because he was cheating on her, then those flowers and gifts would be a horrible mockery of the truth. Truth matters and can and should have a bearing on how we view things. If we are intent on reading scripture just to make us feel good, rather than plumbing it for the truth God intended when he inspired it, then we are just like the wife accepting lies.

And if you have any "beliefs" about the present, isnt another name for those "theories?" If you...no, wait, if i believe that i can handle rattlesnakes and not get bitten/poisoned by them, but i do, what then does my belief amount to but a bad theory proven wrong? (Not saying that the v is wrong, understand, just obv misunderstood)

I see where you're going. And sure, in some cases things will be 'true' for you rather than for me. But...I think you're missing the fact that the concept of truth has to exist. Not everything can be subjective. For example; the sun will not rise at a different time for you and I, should we live at the same place, just because you prefer to start the day earlier. Water will always boil at 100 degrees. Death will come for us all and gravity most likely won't take a day off.
These things are a matter of science, or natural law. They are provable by observation. I know most people enjoy trying to pit science and religion against one another, but the simple fact is that the natural laws of the universe are created, and upheld, by God. God is a God of order and creation. This means that like his creation, he himself has certain attributes, which he has revealed to us, or we can observe through his creation, that are not subjective, but are truth. When he declares something this way, he does it for all...not just for me but not for you. When he tells us his character is (x), we take it as truth, just as we observe the sun rising each and every morning. Not subjective for each different person, depending on how we want to understand it.
Hope all that makes sense. My brain is objecting to working this morning!
 
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Naomi25

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that writing in stone thing, didnt work out so well for us last time eh
:D Ha! No, not really. But, you know, maybe this time? Eh...we'll give it a little go, but knowing what we do now, may drop it a tad sooner if we find ourselves on a similar path!
 

bbyrd009

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But, out of respect, I'll give it another go.
ive always gotten a lot of respect that man i just do not deserve lol. Used to take fairly extreme advantage of that, prolly still do, dunno. Guess this comes across as like false humility or something? But i gotta tell ya, i am a pretty rough and insensitive guy, at best
Okay, some objective truths...
the problem with those imo Naomi is that they do not fit the accepted definition of "objective truth," even though i do agree with them. Could anyone in the world "object" without appearing ridiculous to everyone else? "All circles are round" "Trump is our current potus" these are OTs
But since you were also speaking of the Trinity, let's briefly look at some verses about that.

John 10:30
- I and the Father are one.”
I said, "you are elohim"
but on that, i dont disagree with the concept of trinity so much as disagreeing with elevating it to icon/dogma, just so you know. Others wanna worship Jesus, fine with me. Seems like most ppl want worship too, imo
Okay, so, we see Jesus claiming that he and the Father are one. Now...if we stop and consider the attributes of God and how therefore Christ is also claiming those attributes; but at the same time we see throughout scripture that he speaks to the Father as a very separate individual...his Father! Then the conclusion is the Trinity. How else can Christ make a claim to hold omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence? Or to have been eternally present; the Great I AM?
well, seems like a great arg for Duality so far, imo? Anyway, not even the Son; only the Father knows when...
But the fallacy of today is that we get to choose what beliefs are true and therefore what effects us.
man, when did Beliefs turn into Absolute Truths, id sure like to know. Thought they were deemed beliefs because they could not be demonstrated to be ATs, hmm. Anyway, i have a couple or three beliefs, and i am open to adjusting them as more evidence presents itself. They are not truths to me iow.
Because the fact is; black is black, white it white.
now those are ATs i guess, even though i guess a bright enough light would dismantle them too, but anyway i grabbed this snip to ask if you have explored the satans v naive dialectic deal at all?
And so, as Christians, when we read Christ telling us that His word is truth.
ha weird how He didnt leave any graphe at all though, huh? Gospel is truth too right, but a lotta Gospel not even Quoting Christ, hmm. Is Rhema truth? Is "Easter" then?
I think you're missing the fact that the concept of truth has to exist.
ha well i never denied that AT exists, i hope

"what is currently true may shortly be false"

"we say 'it will rain,'
God knows it might rain"

Not everything can be subjective.
yes it can
(meant mostly as a joke, to make the point, but more scientific and verifiable explanations are available i guess)
Water will always boil at 100 degrees.
um, water boils at 212 "degrees?" ("i meant celcius" "not at altitude")
For example; the sun will not rise at a different time for you and I, should we live at the same place, just because you prefer to start the day earlier.
well so you say, but if i am taller than you, or even standing inches closer to the east than you, the sun would rise microseconds...you get where im going prolly. You speak truth to our agreed perceptions, but you are lying like a dog, see
These things are a matter of science, or natural law. They are provable by observation. I know most people enjoy trying to pit science and religion against one another, but the simple fact is that the natural laws of the universe are created
ha, Abarim guy insists on the same thing, imo now we are maybe getting to "truth"

great stuff Naomi! Gotta run, hope i havent overlooked anything vital, if i did holla k
Not subjective for each different person,

depending on how we want to understand it.
um...lol
Not subjective for each different person,

depending on how we want to understand it.
um...lol
:D Ha! No, not really. But, you know, maybe this time? Eh...we'll give it a little go, but knowing what we do now, may drop it a tad sooner if we find ourselves on a similar path!
boy, imo US are just about back to the end of that path i guess Naomi
 
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Naomi25

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ive always gotten a lot of respect that man i just do not deserve lol. Used to take fairly extreme advantage of that, prolly still do, dunno. Guess this comes across as like false humility or something? But i gotta tell ya, i am a pretty rough and insensitive guy, at best
We're all rough bbyrd! That's why we need Jesus! And why we ought to pass along a little of what we get from him. I reckon, anyway.

the problem with those imo Naomi is that they do not fit the accepted definition of "objective truth," even though i do agree with them. Could anyone in the world "object" without appearing ridiculous to everyone else? "All circles are round" "Trump is our current potus" these are OTs
Hmmm. Seems to me that what you are basing OT on, is what would be agreed upon, universally. Is that correct? Or...perhaps, what can be established by physical fact?
The trouble I see with that is two fold: if relying on physical fact alone, then we must immediately discount anything spiritual or faith reliant. The second would be that nothing is universally agreed upon...therefore nothing would be true. And that in itself cannot be true!
I suppose where I am coming from is this: if you, or I, or anyone we're speaking of...has picked up the bible with more than a cursory interest...if they have picked it up and are reading it because they are convinced; nay, convicted that the God of the bible is THE God; then one must believe that the information presented within his word is true. If it cannot be regarded as true, then how can we honestly believe that the God it represents to us is God at all? Doesn't it just become another story, another cultural attempt to explain where stuff came from and how it works.
I suppose what I'm saying is: we must choose one or the other, surely. Either YHWH is...and his word is to be trusted. Or he is not...and it is not. But if he IS, and it can be...then how do we look at such statements that are made within his book, and dismiss them as irrelevant to truth?

I said, "you are elohim"
but on that, i dont disagree with the concept of trinity so much as disagreeing with elevating it to icon/dogma, just so you know. Others wanna worship Jesus, fine with me. Seems like most ppl want worship too, imo
Well, wouldn't this be a rather important occasion to determine if a truth scripture mentions is important or not? To determine if the claims of Christ to be deity were 'true'? Because it would surely make a difference, wouldn't it? If Christ is not God, and therefore the Christian faith is actually engaged in blasphemy...that's sort of a big deal, don't you think? On the other hand, if the claims made by Christ to be one with the Father...to be deity...are true, then that tells us something true about God, his nature, and how we worship...which reflects how we worship.
I'm not insisting upon 'my way or the highway', please understand...I'm just trying to raise some ideas about the importance of it all. Because when we are having conversations that circle around salvation and the destiny of our souls, you surely must agree that it is important to try and delve to the bottom of it!

well, seems like a great arg for Duality so far, imo? Anyway, not even the Son; only the Father knows when...
The problem with duality, in my opinion, hits a wall when we start viewing all the passages that speak of the Holy Spirit as an active, separate individual. Indeed, there are many passages that specifically mention all three separately in one verse; the Father sending, the Son going; the Spirit empowering. Each having a purposed role in the plan of redemption and functioning in perfect harmony that glorifies one another. And if we start trying to break these down and ascribe them to just one or even two individuals, it ends up sounding like our God has a personality disorder!
And as far as 'not even the Son knows'...well, goodness, one could write a whole essay on that! But, as I understand it; we know that Christ was fully man and fully God. However, while here on earth he willfully chose to set aside a good part of his...ah...God-ness. We see that the Holy Spirit empowered him or enlightened him in some places. And in other places when he could have used his all knowing, or all powerful attributes, he chose not to. It was not his role, as the Son, to defeat those who put him on the cross; only to defeat sin. And it was not his role, as Son, before his resurrection, to know dates and times. We didn't need to know, he didn't need to pass that to us, that's exactly what he said just before his ascention.
Could he, as God, accessed that information had he really wanted to? Just as he could have called down legions of angels to saved him, had he really wanted to? I suppose he could have. But he chose not to, because it was not why he was here. He was here to do the will of his Father.

man, when did Beliefs turn into Absolute Truths, id sure like to know. Thought they were deemed beliefs because they could not be demonstrated to be ATs, hmm. Anyway, i have a couple or three beliefs, and i am open to adjusting them as more evidence presents itself. They are not truths to me iow.
Are they not? In a very real way, have they not become that? Science tells us that human life begins at conception...but people believe its a choice and so that truth is not a truth anymore. The 'truth' is that life only begins when we grant it; if we grant it.
God could be reigning absolute on his throne right now along with the other members of the Trinity...that could very well be an absolute truth...but if you chose not to believe it, that truth becomes subjected to a belief, on what you choose to entertain.
You say that you are 'open to more evidence' in regards to AT, but Romans 1:19-20 say that what is true about God is observable in nature and that man is without excuse.
Most Christians will take what they can see about God in nature, and what they experience of God within themselves, to KNOW that the bible and what it speaks of, is truth. And not just a belief. New life and a transformed heart; the Holy Spirit living within us IS the evidence we need. And that Spirit cries out with a resounding 'yes!' when we read scripture and the Christ honoring truth within it.


now those are ATs i guess, even though i guess a bright enough light would dismantle them too, but anyway i grabbed this snip to ask if you have explored the satans v naive dialectic deal at all?
Nope! Can't say I have, sorry!

ha weird how He didnt leave any graphe at all though, huh? Godpel is truth too right, but a lotta Gospel not even Quoting Christ, hmm. Is Rhema truth? Is "Easter" then?
Well, I'm not sure Christ HAD to leave any written word...after all, John's gospel starts off by telling us that Christ is CALLED the word of God..."In the beginning was the logos". Christ IS the Word. And why wouldn't the spoken word be truth? Is everything you say out loud a lie? Or can it be truthful? Of course it can! And the thing about scripture is that, even though it was the apostles writing down what had happened, we're still told it was 'inspired'...which means we can trust that the memories of the men were not faulty. Everything God wanted in his word IS in his word.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'Easter'. Are you referring to the actual event itself, resurrection weekend...or the resulting celebration of it by Christians? Or the fact that over the years its been just a little bastardized along with pagan images!? (Can you say bunny!)
Because I'd have to say that of course the original event happened. Resurrection Sunday is the foundation of the Christian faith. If Christ hadn't died and been resurrected again, as Paul said, we are, of all men, to be most pitied. And I see nothing 'untruthful' in the fact that Christians enjoy remembering the occasion that was the winning of their salvation.

Man...its late and my brain is not working very well! Good night!
 

bbyrd009

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Seems to me that what you are basing OT on, is what would be agreed upon, universally. Is that correct?
Description
Objectivity is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination. A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject. Wikipedia

Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares. ibid

so yes, most certainly, and in that vein i suggest we abbreviate it AT as we already have a broadly accepted understanding of the meaning of OT
Or...perhaps, what can be established by physical fact?
um, wouldnt be confined to the merely physical i guess?
The second would be that nothing is universally agreed upon
"all circles are round" (circles are not physical, but rather abstract representations that do not exist in nature)
"water is wet"
 

bbyrd009

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I suppose where I am coming from is this: if you, or I, or anyone we're speaking of...has picked up the bible with more than a cursory interest...if they have picked it up and are reading it because they are convinced; nay, convicted that the God of the bible is THE God; then one must believe that the information presented within his word is true.
"convinced, convicted..." lol
who told you that the Bible is Word, Naomi? Bc you certainly did not get that from the Bible!
anyway, i do not mean to imply that the Bible will not lead one into all truth, ok?
"you cannot state a single AT from Scripture," a truth that so far has not been disproven, was really meant to incite contemplation and consideration, imo

but to your point,
No Son of Man may die for another's sins
he who seeks to save his soul shall lose it
you and your sons will be here with me
I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death
etcetc, etc

if what you say is true, then that means you accept and understand all these as truth, yes?
If it cannot be regarded as true, then how can we honestly believe that the God it represents to us is God at all?
ha well the God that It represents to us is most certainly not God, Naomi, at all. I might ref any number of Scriptures or commentary arguments clarifying this if you like. Briefly I do not know God, and i cannot ever fully know God, etc. I can know of God, right

test everything, and keep what is good
Doesn't it just become another story, another cultural attempt to explain where stuff came from and how it works.
word, bro. Except prolly "attempt" is not the best words, bc um, lol, you cannot disprove a single AT from the Bible :)

apropos of nothing,
pi is, most certainly, not 3.1416+ in the real world, where perfect circles on perfectly flat planes do not exist

to your point, there is more on that in the links i have been posting this am on my profile page. Hebrew is beyond a stone cold trip, it is functionally inexplicable i guess, as more than one author has noted
I suppose what I'm saying is: we must choose one or the other, surely. Either YHWH is...and his word is to be trusted.
"Easter" is Word?
(Word must be heard, have you Heard the word, or have you herd the Word)
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God
But if he IS, and it can be...then how do we look at such statements that are made within his book, and dismiss them as irrelevant to truth?
"irrelevant TO truth" i did not mean to ever imply though

"the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" SClemens
"No squealing, remember that it's all in your head" Gorillaz
Well, wouldn't this be a rather important occasion to determine if a truth scripture mentions is important or not? To determine if the claims of Christ to be deity were 'true'? Because it would surely make a difference, wouldn't it? If Christ is not God, and therefore the Christian faith is actually engaged in blasphemy...that's sort of
test Me and see...yup!

k i am apparently expected to pay attn to "Marketing God" now jesushchrist are these poor ppl gonna be sooo sorry they asked me to come to this cong bout ta split it in half, right down the middle, today i guess, thought it would take a month but i guess not. Back later, assuming i live ok
I came, not to being peace, but a sword i guess dang gotta go throw up first
Marketing God though jesus what is gonna come out of my pie hole this time
pray for me if you would im surrounded by rabid patriots with guns
 
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bbyrd009

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On the other hand, if the claims made by Christ to be one with the Father...to be deity...are true, then that tells us something true about God, his nature, and how we worship...which reflects how we worship.
Jesus of Nazareth=John Doe from Nowhere...seen "Meet John Doe" yet?
I said, "you are elohim"
I'm not insisting upon 'my way or the highway', please understand...I'm just trying to raise some ideas about the importance of it all. Because when we are having conversations that circle around salvation and the destiny of our souls, you surely must agree that it is important to try and delve to the bottom of it!
he who seeks to save his soul shall lose it
I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly
.
you and your sons will be here with me

.
And it was not his role, as Son, before his resurrection, to know dates and times. We didn't need to know, he didn't need to pass that to us, that's exactly what he said just before his ascention.
i suggest that that is because you are supposed to know already,
and "Lord only knows when" is a tic way of saying that
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you.
but start at the end of ch4 i guess
Are they not? In a very real way, have they not become that?
as near as i can tell anyway, no. I have just recently changed some of my beliefs, although i dont really have any where the past or future are concerned
The 'truth' is that life only begins when we grant it; if we grant it.
lost me, sorry, could you rephrase?
(ppl say i am hard to understand, but i almost never get asked this)
God could be reigning absolute on his throne right now along with the other members of the Trinity...that could very well be an absolute truth
sorry miss n, but wadr that could not be an AT, according to our mutually agreed upon definition. God does not "exist," right? Doesnt mean that He is not very real, more real than our chairs even
You say that you are 'open to more evidence' in regards to AT, but Romans 1:19-20 say that what is true about God is observable in nature and that man is without excuse.
"when i am in nature, i feel separated from God"
father Tanquerry

Most Christians will take what they can see about God in nature, and what they experience of God within themselves, to KNOW that the bible and what it speaks of, is truth.
knowledge brings sorrow

he who says he knows, does not

New life and a transformed heart; the Holy Spirit living within us IS the evidence we need.
twice the sons of hell you are

seven worse spirits
And that Spirit cries out with a resounding 'yes!' when we read scripture and the Christ honoring truth within it.
the heart is deceitful above all things
satan appears as an angel of light

.
Nope! Can't say I have, sorry!
ha well that was meant rhetorically, miss n, the answer is already obvious when you post
not a big deal ok

we're tired of this manna, give us some meat to eat!
.
And why wouldn't the spoken word be truth?
i would say that that is the only Word, that which is heard, yes

Is everything you say out loud a lie?
yes

Or can it be truthful?
yes
even though it was the apostles writing down what had happened
ah...they were unlettered, sorry
i can dig up the ref if you like, but the sun is setting...lol
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'Easter'.
Ishtar, Oestre, she goes by many names. The fertility goddess, miss n. Bunnies and eggs, and all that?

but my point was that "Easter" was installed by scribes in "the word," as Lex will hip you up on
Resurrection Sunday is the foundation of the Christian faith.
so you say, yes
but um then Christ is not our Passover?

great stuff miss n, you make many good points imo
gnite
 
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Naomi25

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Objectivity is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination. A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject. Wikipedia
Okay, we can agree on that description. However, I must confess to being a little confused to how you then view everything. If God exists, he does not do so just because we chose to believe in him, or not believe in him. You must agree, surely, that if he exists, he does so 'independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions or imagination'. Our choice to believe in him would then be subjective...up to choice or bias or experience.
I know many atheists would say 'no, God does not exists, that is NOT a truth'...but that itself is based on bias, emotion and perception, and has no sway on reality at all. If God exists, he exists outside of human bias. Yes?

Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares. ibid

so yes, most certainly, and in that vein i suggest we abbreviate it AT as we already have a broadly accepted understanding of the meaning of OT
um, wouldnt be confined to the merely physical i guess?
So, sure...we can expand that to things that cannot be seen, but known all the same; and that leads us, inevitably, to God. God is not something that is true for you and me, but not for those people over there. He did not create the universe for you and me, but the big bang did it for those people over there. He does not uphold the laws of science for you and I, but chance does it for those people over there. IF God exists, he exists for all; making him an AT based on your description above. And if God is true, then why would we question his word?

"all circles are round" (circles are not physical, but rather abstract representations that do not exist in nature)
"water is wet"
I dunno. Have you met some people? They'll argue about anything! But sure...alright, we have some fairly simple statements that are basic and (for most) unarguable. But, the things we are considering are a tad more weighty and are unlikely to be agreed upon by all and large, I believe. Religion and the existence of deities has been a source of disharmony in the world since almost the dawn of creation. (I'm actually reading a book about this at the moment...fascinating!) But I digress.
I suppose what I am trying to express is this: there are essentially only two 'truths'; either God exists or he does not. As a Christian I've weighed all the evidence and come down on the side of 'he exists'...his presence and affects are everywhere. And while "God exists" may be a debatable statement to many, it is not an untrue one. In point of fact, God being the source of all truth, it is about as important and truth defining as it gets.
 
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Naomi25

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"convinced, convicted..." lol
who told you that the Bible is Word, Naomi? Bc you certainly did not get that from the Bible!
anyway, i do not mean to imply that the Bible will not lead one into all truth, ok?
"you cannot state a single AT from Scripture," a truth that so far has not been disproven, was really meant to incite contemplation and consideration, imo

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. -John 1:1-3,14

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, - 2 Timothy 3:16


I would have thought this says it all. Jesus is the Word. The bible tells us what he said and did. The bible is also 'God breathed'. If that's not a metaphor for 'Word', I dunno what is. Sort of an ipso facto thing.
You may be trying to point out something about AT in which leads to 'truth', but I caution you. In point of fact I think you are actually calling into question whether a person can actually believe in the trustworthiness of God's existence and what he says. If his word is not to be considered truth, if his very existence is not to be considered truth either, then everything hinges on the strength of ones belief alone, rather than on the reality of the creator God who holds all things. We go from "faith is the evidence of things unseen" to "faith is just waiting to be proven by something incontestable".

but to your point,
No Son of Man may die for another's sins
he who seeks to save his soul shall lose it
you and your sons will be here with me
I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death
etcetc, etc

if what you say is true, then that means you accept and understand all these as truth, yes?
Ah, context, my friend! Anyone can, and does, toss out verses that seemingly oppose orthodox Christianity. Usually its done to suit a pre-held supposition. Just as no man is an Island, none of these verses you've tossed out are to be taken in isolation.
Nice try, tho!

ha well the God that It represents to us is most certainly not God, Naomi, at all. I might ref any number of Scriptures or commentary arguments clarifying this if you like. Briefly I do not know God, and i cannot ever fully know God, etc. I can know of God, right

test everything, and keep what is good
See...this right here might be some of your problem. Sure, we cannot fully know God. For he is infinite and that is beyond our capacity. But the bible teaches that when we are adopted into his family, we enter into a relationship with him. We can know him. The temple curtain was torn for a reason, my friend, and it wasn't just so we could gather to ourselves a few bits of knowledge about God...they already had that. No...it was so we could boldly approach his throne and call him Father!


word, bro. Except prolly "attempt" is not the best words, bc um, lol, you cannot disprove a single AT from the Bible :)

apropos of nothing,
pi is, most certainly, not 3.1416+ in the real world, where perfect circles on perfectly flat planes do not exist

to your point, there is more on that in the links i have been posting this am on my profile page. Hebrew is beyond a stone cold trip, it is functionally inexplicable i guess, as more than one author has noted
I cannot 'disprove' a single AT from scripture? I thought you said there were NO AT IN scripture? How can I disprove things that aren't there?
You're starting to confuse me again.
Perhaps Hebrew is 'functionally inexplicable' because they were functioning under the guidance of a non-human entity. God, perhaps.


"Easter" is Word?
(Word must be heard, have you Heard the word, or have you herd the Word)
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God
Who says Word must be 'heard'? Heard how? As long as Word is communicated, does it matter how? If you were to take the words in your head, you could speak them out loud to me on a phone, or you could write them down for me hear. Either way, they are still YOUR words, are they not? Words that come from your will and intention?
Nothing in scripture says that God's word becomes invalidated if it is read. In fact, we see that scripture is God breathed and inspired. That he demands his prophets and apostles to write down what he shows them. So...you know...
"irrelevant TO truth" i did not mean to ever imply though

"the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" SClemens
"No squealing, remember that it's all in your head" Gorillaz
Mmmm....have no idea what you mean here, sorry.

test Me and see...yup!

k i am apparently expected to pay attn to "Marketing God" now jesushchrist are these poor ppl gonna be sooo sorry they asked me to come to this cong bout ta split it in half, right down the middle, today i guess, thought it would take a month but i guess not. Back later, assuming i live ok
I came, not to being peace, but a sword i guess dang gotta go throw up first
Marketing God though jesus what is gonna come out of my pie hole this time
pray for me if you would im surrounded by rabid patriots with guns
Ah...good luck?
 

Naomi25

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Jesus of Nazareth=John Doe from Nowhere...seen "Meet John Doe" yet?
I said, "you are elohim"

he who seeks to save his soul shall lose it
I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly
.
you and your sons will be here with me

.

i suggest that that is because you are supposed to know already,
and "Lord only knows when" is a tic way of saying that
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you.
but start at the end of ch4 i guess
Not sure what you mean by the first lot, so am skipping it, sorry.
You think we are already supposed to know when Christ will return? I thought you thought he wasn't returning at all...or is that where you are going with this? Let's not go there!

as near as i can tell anyway, no. I have just recently changed some of my beliefs, although i dont really have any where the past or future are concerned
From my perspective, looking at the craziness of the world today, it most certainly has. Just for example: fake news; people are happy to make stuff up for the sake of an agenda; trans, climate, political, you name it, then the media start pushing stories that outright paint a particular reality as being true. Doesn't seem to matter that there is provable evidence to the contrary; they just bulldoze over it. Like the Nazi's said: if a lie is told convincingly enough, long enough, people will believe it. And people do. They are now basing their realities on this stuff; they protest, shout, scream, abuse...all because they believe this stuff to be incontrovertible! And anyone else trying to enter into the conversation with anything that might disprove it gets steamrollered over or 'canceled'...maybe even physically abused.
So absolutely I think people are basing their 'truths' on what they believe and feel. It worrying.

lost me, sorry, could you rephrase?
(ppl say i am hard to understand, but i almost never get asked this)
Oh, sure. Well, science would say that at even 6 weeks of age a 'fetus' has a heart beat and flinches away from pain. And from there on out it just becomes more and more susceptible to feelings and human-like emotions. However, the 'choice' movement are pushing, or have even passed laws that now make it legal to kill said 'fetus' up until the moment of birth. To even let a botched aborted one lie crying alone until death. In other words; a child is not a child, unless we deem it a child. That mother over there might be fighting to hold onto the child in her womb and have all the doctors striving to help her and agreeing that the child is precious. But that woman over there, just pushed out a fully developed child a day from her delivery date and had it killed. Because she deemed it wasn't human. And the most sickening thing is how they kill it. Because its not human, they kill it in a way we wouldn't inflict upon our worst convicted killers. But, you know, s'kay...cause they aren't human.
Their beliefs effect their truths. But their beliefs DON'T effect the truth. And that's my point. The real truth? Those are babies. And they just sucked out their brains through the back of their neck without anesthesia.

sorry miss n, but wadr that could not be an AT, according to our mutually agreed upon definition. God does not "exist," right? Doesnt mean that He is not very real, more real than our chairs even
Hmmm. This right here might be the bone of our contention. You see, when you say that AT is "something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed" I agree. However, in my mind, that category clearly fits God, of course it does; God is always present and always the same and cannot be changed or effected. Whereas, it seems for you it doesn't because...why? I'm not actually sure. You say that he is 'very real'. If he is 'very real' to you, then why wouldn't he fit the above category? How can God be 'real' but not 'exist'?
Sorry, but..please explain??

"when i am in nature, i feel separated from God"
father Tanquerry
And that proves? When I'm in nature, I feel closer to God. I'm sure we could take a census of the planet, but it doesn't really matter. IF God is creator, sustainer, rescuer...then I suspect he gets to set the rules.


knowledge brings sorrow

he who says he knows, does not
twice the sons of hell you are

seven worse spirits
the heart is deceitful above all things
satan appears as an angel of light

So, if I am to understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some out of context scriptures ought to override what the rest of the book says about the Christian life? You do realize that is not at all rational, right? No one who is a semi-decent scholar would spend his time pouring through a text and find 80% of the content on how to do something...all in harmony, by the way, and then go looking for some single verses without the surrounding context to disprove that 80%. That's like being presented with a new car and deciding you don't like it, so picking off a door handle, the review mirror, a headrest and the gear stick. All parts that come out of the car, sure, but by themselves, useless.

.

ha well that was meant rhetorically, miss n, the answer is already obvious when you post
not a big deal ok

we're tired of this manna, give us some meat to eat!
.
i would say that that is the only Word, that which is heard, yes
Easy. Get someone to read the bible out loud to you. Done. Or read it out loud yourself.

So...wait. Everything you say is a lie, but it can be truthful too?
C'mon bbyrd. Really? :rolleyes:

ah...they were unlettered, sorry
i can dig up the ref if you like, but the sun is setting...lol
So? We already know that scripture is God breathed. Inspired. Do we think God cannot enable illiterate men to write what he wants them to? After he raised the dead?

Ishtar, Oestre, she goes by many names. The fertility goddess, miss n. Bunnies and eggs, and all that?

but my point was that "Easter" was installed by scribes in "the word," as Lex will hip you up on
Right, so the pagan stuff. And no...not all versions of scripture has 'easter' written in them. All of the different versions I have have Passover written in them.

so you say, yes
but um then Christ is not our Passover?

great stuff miss n, you make many good points imo
gnite
Of course he is our Passover Lamb. But we don't JUST celebrate that in him we were 'passed over' for death and punishment. We celebrate that because of his resurrection, we too have a resurrection in our future. See 1 Cor 15.
 

bbyrd009

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Not sure what you mean by the first lot
no doubt, miss n
If God exists, he exists outside of human bias. Yes?
well, i guess you havent gotten down to that part yet; God does not "exist!"
ex·ist
/iɡˈzist/
verb
  1. 1.
    have objective reality or being.
so again dont get me wrong, i believe in Yah, but "He" does not exist, and this is why we call them "beliefs" and not "facts" i guess. That is truth, according to our definition.

I do believe God is real. Is that the truth? God is truth, right. I'm not saying that one right, there is also a clever thing for that one

so anyway to your point, i agree
but so what
we both define "God" differently, and the Abarim have an imo good article for this, "what God is and what God is not" i think it is. I'm sure you will be as amazed as i was how many different words were xlated to us as simply "God," completely dumbing down Yah's Breath. imo.
And if God is true, then why would we question his word?
ha well it isnt that we would question His "Word" but that we would misinterpret it into "Easter" to serve ourselves? See, you are still calling Yah's Breath "Word" even though you cannot Quote this, which i get how that sounds to you but just imagine how Yah feels when you deem Easter "Word?" So i realize you are not meaning to be um sacreligious or anything, and are prolly just exhibiting reverence for Scripture as best you know how, but wadr Paul said "all writings are excellent for instruction reproof" whatever paraphrased, graphe iow, and even contrasted it with gramme to make the point, Timothy i think? 1 Timothy?
And while "God exists" may be a debatable statement to many, it is not an untrue one.
miss n, it is most certainly untrue, or see you may as well accept your own private interpretations for everything?

Once you insist that Yah exists see the next step is to be putting It in some kind of dress, and prolly attaching a beard to Her, and deciding that He has a penis, etc, see. And right after that the Unapproached Yah becomes a person, see, and right after that He gets put in a pantheon with equals, and before you know it you are praying to Mary and celebrating "Ishtar" and dont get me wrong, i am not judging these as evil bc i dont believe they are, gimme someone praying to Mary and confessing to Some Guy they call Father over someone not praying at all and not confessing at all any day of the week and twice on Sabbath, but why call it Christianity then?

i love Catholics, ok, why not call it "Catholicism?"
So, if I am to understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some out of context scriptures
narf, have a nice day naomi
Jesus is the Word. The bible tells us what he said and did. The bible is also 'God breathed'. If that's not a metaphor for 'Word', I dunno what is. Sort of an ipso facto thing.
then why, oh why, miss n, would you sit still for someone scribing Ishtar into Yah's "Word," His very Essence? And in place of your Passover, CHRIST, no less?
bout AT in which leads to 'truth', but I caution you. In point of fact I think you are actually calling into question whether a person can actually believe in the trustworthiness of God's existence and what he says.
aaa-men miss n, and i hope you might come to understand why, from the explanation above. All the gods (that are made of wood, and "exist," see) i know have fallen
Ah, context, my friend!
miss n i had forgotten or did not realize you were RCC, or i never would have proceeded this far with you. Bam go with that then, ok, i would hate for that to come between our hearts.

so, some quite pertinent Scripture, just for you and other papists;
"The month Tammuz isn't really mentioned by name in the Bible. But on the fifth day of the sixth month (that's the month Elul), the prophet Ezekiel envisioned the Temple of YHWH in which northern gate women were weeping over Tammuz. Tammuz was a much revered deity, linked to resurrection from the realm of the dead, fertility, shepherds and the provision of milk, and the growth of food on fields (hence the ritualistic mourning of his perceived death during the dry and hot summer). Much later, the prophet envisioned the restored temple, with the glory of YHWH visible from the north gate instead of the abominable women weeping over Tammuz (compare Ezekiel 8:14 to 44:4)." The mysterious Hebrew Calendar
the current "north gate" of Christianity should not be too hard to figure out i guess
Who says Word must be 'heard'? Heard how?
if you ref any instance of pneuma im sure you will see "Who" says Word must be heard, miss n
As long as Word is communicated, does it matter how?
"Easter," miss n, so you tell me.
gotta love this pope though, huh?
:D
man i love that guy
You think we are already supposed to know when Christ will return? I thought you thought he wasn't returning at all...or is that where you are going with this? Let's not go there!
ezackly lol. At least until you can Quote "Christ returning..."

"the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible"
SClemens

I will never leave you nor forsake you
.
Easy. Get someone to read the bible out loud to you. Done. Or read it out loud yourself.
avoiding the point of Easter of course, and scribes, but great idea imo! And imo you had many other valuable insights ok, pretty much everything i did not snip to reply to i agree with, surely
have a blessed day :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The only thing that can ever come from ignoring a boundary stone or moving it is pain and strife, in my opinion
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word.
like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and
But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to
hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?
and there proclaim this message: "'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of

etc, and i doubt that we should equate this kind of "hearing" with our ears, fwiw
you do not hear the Word with your ears, imo, note "to see" above which surely does not mean "with your two eyes" either, ref our common idiom "oh, i see now," "do you hear what i am saying," etc
 
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bbyrd009

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"Celebrations follow a bountiful harvest and a bountiful harvest follows understanding of the Creator's natural law. This is a matter of science and technology, and certainly not one of religion or other such superstitions and wishful thinking. Those latter exercises are tools for politicians and populists and herald store houses as empty as their promises. Science and adherence to technological discipline leads to bounty, prosperity and joy. Stupidity and adherence to religious rituals leads to famine, war and misery. In the seventh month, the false prophet Hananiah died as a result of his idiotic prophesies (Jeremiah 28:17)..." The mysterious Hebrew Calendar
 

VictoryinJesus

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No Son of Man may die for another's sins

Been wanting to ask you about this. You quote it often. What does it say to you, I’m curious? Especially with
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 
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bbyrd009

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Been wanting to ask you about this. You quote it often. What does it say to you, I’m curious? Especially with
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
yeh, pertinent Quote there prolly. If we have received Him, we prolly arent looking for a "return" amy longer, right? We have realized that we are the Body at that point? So, what it says to me is that Jesus did not die "for" our sins in the manner that we are first taught, although i have no doubt that that is worded that way specifically to draw men to Himself, dont get me wrong; fear sells. Fear of Yah is the beginning of wisdom, etc., so nothing wrong with beginning there imo.

And the only way i am currently able to rectify that v with Christ died for our sins and even Jesus took our place is "Emmanuel (God in us) died when i sinned/founded the world," and for the second imo that should be taken as like pitching to our perspective of being guilty, despite Who told you that you were naked? iow God does not count our "sins" against us "Personally" if you will? We seek "blood" for sins, not God. imo. Under the law almost everything requires blood
 

VictoryinJesus

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yeh, pertinent Quote there prolly. If we have received Him, we prolly arent looking for a "return" amy longer, right? We have realized that we are the Body at that point? So, what it says to me is that Jesus did not die "for" our sins in the manner that we are first taught, although i have no doubt that that is worded that way specifically to draw men to Himself, dont get me wrong; fear sells. Fear of Yah is the beginning of wisdom, etc., so nothing wrong with beginning there imo.

And the only way i am currently able to rectify that v with Christ died for our sins and even Jesus took our place is "Emmanuel (God in us) died when i sinned/founded the world," and for the second imo that should be taken as like pitching to our perspective of being guilty, despite Who told you that you were naked? iow God does not count our "sins" against us "Personally" if you will? We seek "blood" for sins, not God. imo. Under the law almost everything requires blood

there seems to be a contradiction in no man can die for another. No man can lay down his life for a friend. But I guess that is what I’m asking in how you see in reference to power given of God (to lay down life and take it up again)to become Sons. What power is given to become the Sons of God; if not the power to lay down his life for another’s sake ...especially since ”no greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends” ...He is our friend or should be. He is our friend and if one lays down their life for His name sake then they have laid down their life (power given to do so) ...for their friend who is (Him)...God. No greater Charity or Love is shown than ...seeking the wealth of another. you say there are no absolute truths in the word (Spirit)...so can it be trusted? Anything that is said even “Follow Me.” Should we trust “Follow Me”

an absolute truth may be Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity(futility, emptiness, worthlessness), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Another absolute may be that “hope” of deliverance from the bondage of corruption IS in power given of God to becomes Sons of God; for Matthew 10:38-40 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. [40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 15:13-14 Greater love (Charity) hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

to say no man can lay down his life for his friends is saying no man (has power given of God) to lay down their life for Christ and follow as He commanded to do in “you are my friend” ... “pick up your cross and follow” (Mark 8:34-35)

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
^ power given to lay down ones life for a friend and no greater love or charity has any than this: to lay down their life for Christ. (You are friends)
 
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