Understanding Rev 12, The Woman & Dragon's Mouth

[Wrangler]

Revelation 12:13-17 NRSV

The Dragon Fights Again on Earth

13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued[a] the woman who had delivered the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help ... Then the dragon was angry with the woman and went off to wage war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

KEY
The woman = spiritual Israel

From Serpents mouth = slander

Poured Water = represents any suffering

The Earth = Divine agent to help

The woman's children = saints, believers

The NSRV Cultural Study Bible offers outstanding insight into the symbolism of this notoriously difficult to discern symbolic book. I think we all know the dragon is the devil and 'the male child the woman (Israel delivered) is the devil's arch enemy, our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I found it interesting that the study note of 12:16 said the inanimate object, the Earth, was obeying God in helping the woman (spiritual Israel). I can't imagine what this looks like in practice but an early study note compared how the Greek gods were subject to fate whereas our god, YHWH, controls fate. This suggests that various "coincidences" of nature (as opposed to a being, like an Angel) will thwart Satan's persecution of the saints. I imagine such things as tree's falling or an unusually engorged river to stop a hot pursuit, early blooming of leaves to provide cover or late falling of leaves. Conversely, the opposite for God's elect to find each other despite the most desperate of circumstances.

Anyway, I found these few verses rich with subtext and symbolism. So, I thought I'd pass them along.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Revelation 12:13-17 NRSV

The Dragon Fights Again on Earth

13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued[a] the woman who had delivered the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help ... Then the dragon was angry with the woman and went off to wage war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

KEY
The woman = spiritual Israel

From Serpents mouth = slander

Poured Water = represents any suffering

The Earth = Divine agent to help

The woman's children = saints, believers

The NSRV Cultural Study Bible offers outstanding insight into the symbolism of this notoriously difficult to discern symbolic book. I think we all know the dragon is the devil and 'the male child the woman (Israel delivered) is the devil's arch enemy, our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I found it interesting that the study note of 12:16 said the inanimate object, the Earth, was obeying God in helping the woman (spiritual Israel). I can't imagine what this looks like in practice but an early study note compared how the Greek gods were subject to fate whereas our god, YHWH, controls fate. This suggests that various "coincidences" of nature (as opposed to a being, like an Angel) will thwart Satan's persecution of the saints. I imagine such things as tree's falling or an unusually engorged river to stop a hot pursuit, early blooming of leaves to provide cover or late falling of leaves. Conversely, the opposite for God's elect to find each other despite the most desperate of circumstances.

Anyway, I found these few verses rich with subtext and symbolism. So, I thought I'd pass them along.

Interestingly Wrangler, we are seeing this prophecy unfolding, satan and the demons have been cast tot the earth, and have been waging war on God's people, but to a limited degree. We are nearing the time when God is going to put it into the hearts of Kings to attack satans horde, and then satans anger will retaliate with the fulfillment of what you are speaking about. Jehovah will send His forces to remove satan from the earth, the next phase of the implementation of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Wrangler]

One thing that surprised me about the study note is that the battle with the serpent is said in the study note to begin with Christ's resurrection. I have not been able to reconcile that with the serpent being in the garden of Eden.

 

[Mr E]

Revelation 12:13-17 NRSV

The Dragon Fights Again on Earth

13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued[a] the woman who had delivered the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help ... Then the dragon was angry with the woman and went off to wage war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

KEY
The woman = spiritual Israel

From Serpents mouth = slander

Poured Water = represents any suffering

The Earth = Divine agent to help

The woman's children = saints, believers

The NSRV Cultural Study Bible offers outstanding insight into the symbolism of this notoriously difficult to discern symbolic book. I think we all know the dragon is the devil and 'the male child the woman (Israel delivered) is the devil's arch enemy, our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I found it interesting that the study note of 12:16 said the inanimate object, the Earth, was obeying God in helping the woman (spiritual Israel). I can't imagine what this looks like in practice but an early study note compared how the Greek gods were subject to fate whereas our god, YHWH, controls fate. This suggests that various "coincidences" of nature (as opposed to a being, like an Angel) will thwart Satan's persecution of the saints. I imagine such things as tree's falling or an unusually engorged river to stop a hot pursuit, early blooming of leaves to provide cover or late falling of leaves. Conversely, the opposite for God's elect to find each other despite the most desperate of circumstances.

Anyway, I found these few verses rich with subtext and symbolism. So, I thought I'd pass them along.

Just out of curiosity... are you sure?

I see the Christmas story. While you identify the woman as "spiritual Israel" and so on, the passage itself identifies the woman as Mary, the mother of Jesus by virtue of the identity of the child she delivered.

 

[Wrangler]

Just out of curiosity... are you sure?

I see the Christmas story. While you identify the woman as "spiritual Israel" and so on, the passage itself identifies the woman as Mary, the mother of Jesus by virtue of the identity of the child she delivered.

No, I'm not sure. Just passing on the NSRV Study Notes.

The notion of "the woman" referring to Mary does not hold up to scrutiny because her children are long dead and the passage is prophetic. It talks about future persecution of the woman's children by the dragon. Plus, the chapter ends with 'those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.' Obviously, this refers to 'those' beyond just Jesus and Mary's other children.

Scripture makes references in the OT to spiritual Israel and spiritual descendants of Abraham. I know some Christians want to substitute that with us being the off spring of Mary. However, there is no Scriptural evidence of this. So, my conclusion is the NSRV Study notes hold up to scrutiny.

I do not believe certainty is the proper categorization of things religious.

 

[Mr E]

No, I'm not sure. Just passing on the NSRV Study Notes.

The notion of "the woman" referring to Mary does not hold up to scrutiny because her children are long dead and the passage is prophetic. It talks about future persecution of the woman's children by the dragon. Plus, the chapter ends with 'those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.' Obviously, this refers to 'those' beyond just Jesus and Mary's other children.

Scripture makes references in the OT to spiritual Israel and spiritual descendants of Abraham. I know some Christians want to substitute that with us being the off spring of Mary. However, there is no Scriptural evidence of this. So, my conclusion is the NSRV Study notes hold up to scrutiny.

I do not believe certainty is the proper categorization of things religious.

You have no trouble equating the woman to 'spiritual' Israel and her children, but can't get your head around Mary, and her son Jesus-the Christ having 'spiritual' children?

The passage directly identifies the child that 'the woman' gives birth to in a manner that makes it unmistakable.

So the woman gave birth to a son, a male child, who is going to rule over all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne...


This one was previously referenced earlier in the revelation as the one who conquers--

Rev 2-
And to the one who conquers and who continues in my deeds until the end, I will give him authority over the nations — he will rule them with an iron rod, and like clay jars he will break them to pieces...

 

[Adam]

Unfortunately, Revelations is almost indecipherable.

At least we can use Biblical precedent to make some connections.

Water = teachings

John 4:14
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

This is further supported by the fact that the water came from the serpent's mouth. It is false teachings.

 

[Adam]

As for the Earth coming to help, my interpretation is, that the Serpent's teachings are observably wrong, so one only has to look at the Earth to see the flaws in his doctrine. For example: he might tell mankind that mankind is God, but, as the Bible says, a man does not have the power to make even a single hair on his head black or white, so mankind obviously cannot be God.

 

[Mr E]

Unfortunately, Revelations is almost indecipherable.

At least we can use Biblical precedent to make some connections.

Water = teachings

John 4:14
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

This is further supported by the fact that the water came from the serpent's mouth. It is false teachings.

If you don't have an understanding of dreams, you'll have difficulty making sense of what John records.

Water is not 'teachings' rather it refers to the spirit. Spiritual principles, the spiritual realm. Reality. If you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, you could say that the water, or the deep, or the abyss is that water from which life comes forth (in the form of light) in the beginning. And if you want to really get down and dirty in the concept-- you could think of it as akin to semen.

 

[Adam]

If you don't have an understanding of dreams, you'll have difficulty making sense of what John records.

Water is not 'teachings' rather it refers to the spirit. Spiritual principles, the spiritual realm. Reality. If you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, you could say that the water, or the deep, or the abyss is that water from which life comes forth (in the form of light) in the beginning. And if you want to really get down and dirty in the concept-- you could think of it as akin to semen.

Either way - this has the same interpretation: the devil is trying to pollute something sacred. So let's say the woman represents the assembly of the Church, a common interpretation, so the devil is trying to fill the Church with evil. If the woman represents a person, a second incarnation of Mary, then once again, the intent is to corrupt Mary.

So in any case, there is the spiritual essence of evil - evil teachings, evil thoughts, evil actions, which is attempting to infuse into something pure. This echoes back to Genesis 1, where the devil tempts the woman and she gives in, but now the woman in her perfected form flees the devil.

But because of the "earth", the Devil will fail. So what aspect of the Earth protects the woman? The Earth, the observable world of the senses. The Bible often advocates for turning away from the Earth in favor of spiritual matters, but here, it is the Earth which defies the spiritual. The physical world now testifies against the essence of evil, it cannot contend against that which is observable.

 

[Mr E]

Either way - this has the same interpretation: the devil is trying to pollute something sacred. So let's say the woman represents the assembly of the Church, a common interpretation, so the devil is trying to fill the Church with evil. If the woman represents a person, a second incarnation of Mary, then once again, the intent is to corrupt Mary.

So in any case, there is the spiritual essence of evil - evil teachings, evil thoughts, evil actions, which is attempting to infuse into something pure. This echoes back to Genesis 1, where the devil tempts the woman and she gives in, but now the woman in her perfected form flees the devil.

But because of the "earth", the Devil will fail. So what aspect of the Earth protects the woman? The Earth, the observable world of the senses. The Bible often advocates for turning away from the Earth in favor of spiritual matters, but here, it is the Earth which defies the spiritual. The physical world now testifies against the essence of evil, it cannot contend against that which is observable.

Kind of...

Just as the children of God are considered His seed, so too is there 'bad seed' sown into the world-- sons of the fallen one or the weeds/tares spoken of in parable. If you want to extrapolate "teachings" to be the fruit of one seed or the other, that's not a horrible direction to go, but the woman is all of humanity, the physical world, the flesh, -while the water is spirit/spiritual in nature and yes-- not just Mary (as the woman) but Eve also and thus all mankind, the fruit from that one tree (Adam)..... that family tree.

 

[Wrangler]

You have no trouble equating the woman to 'spiritual' Israel and her children, but can't get your head around Mary, and her son Jesus-the Christ having 'spiritual' children?

One is biblical. The other is not.

 

[Wrangler]

The passage directly identifies the child that 'the woman' gives birth to in a manner that makes it unmistakable.

Yes, there is no doubt that as a child of Israel, Mary gave birth to the Messiah. However, the verses are talking about more than merely merely and her progeny.

While we are children of God, we are the bride of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say anything like we are the children of Mary. I believe such a notion began with the RCC tradition.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, there is no doubt that as a child of Israel, Mary gave birth to the Messiah. However, the verses are talking about more than merely merely and her progeny.

While we are children of God, we are the bride of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say anything like we are the children of Mary. I believe such a notion began with the RCC tradition.

Well I’m certainly not Roman Catholic.

Yes, there is no doubt that as a child of Israel, Mary gave birth to the Messiah. However, the verses are talking about more than merely merely and her progeny.

While we are children of God, we are the bride of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say anything like we are the children of Mary. I believe such a notion began with the RCC tradition.

Maybe you didn’t read the story all the way through?

Of his beloved friend John and to his own dear mother- it was his final words with dying breath.

 

[Wrangler]

Well I’m certainly not Roman Catholic.


Maybe you didn’t read the story all the way through?

Of his beloved friend John and to his own dear mother- it was his final words with dying breath.

There is no relationship between his last words, which were personal, and the verses in Revelation under discussion, which is end times, as you know.

Not sure why you are limiting ‘the woman’ to Mary rather than to spiritual Israel, as the NRSV Study Notes indicates. What exactly is your basis of support?

 

[Mr E]

There is no relationship between his last words, which were personal, and the verses in Revelation under discussion, which is end times, as you know.

Not sure why you are limiting ‘the woman’ to Mary rather than to spiritual Israel, as the NRSV Study Notes indicates. What exactly is your basis of support?

I explained it to you already. The woman is identified as the one who would birth the anointed one. But just as you are not talking about physical Israel, I’m talking about what Jesus showed John in a dream. A spiritual vision.

It’s the Christmas story with Herod pursuing her, refuge in Egypt and the coming of the Christ.

 

[Adam]

Kind of...

Just as the children of God are considered His seed, so too is there 'bad seed' sown into the world-- sons of the fallen one or the weeds/tares spoken of in parable.

I would rather believe that all souls have a kernel of good which can never be corrupted and that all things will be ultimately saved. All things were created by God, and were created in the image of God. All things originate from God's mind, a perfect mind, and all souls are therefore formed from a perfect idea.

The most ignorant, weakest, most evil thing possible isn't the devil, it's not any evil soul, it is non-existence. As long as something exists, it has some knowledge, some strength, and therefore, some good. And by that same logic, God creates because the very act of creation is good in and of itself.

The bad seed that was sown I prefer to think of as evil teachings, and the good seed as good teachings. The evil thoughts are sifted away, but the good thoughts are kept forever, and this is how souls grow towards God (and also why the wages of sin are death: we must be purified by death and rebirth and caused to forget our sins lest we persist in evil forever).

If you want to extrapolate "teachings" to be the fruit of one seed or the other, that's not a horrible direction to go, but the woman is all of humanity, the physical world, the flesh, -while the water is spirit/spiritual in nature and yes-- not just Mary (as the woman) but Eve also and thus all mankind, the fruit from that one tree (Adam)..... that family tree.

If we consider Jesus to be the perfected form of Man (Adam), then the opposite of Jesus, God's only begotten son, are the pharisees, who Jesus called sons of the devil. The pharoahs and scribes and god-kings were the rulers of the world in Jesus' time. The evils of the male psyche: power, control, oppression, violence, self-righteousness, a god-complex. While Jesus is the possessor of the virtues of wisdom and humility and bravery under persecution.

By the second coming, the Bible says that the ruler of the world is the Harlot. More than half of human deaths globally per annum are caused by abortion, so, this seems quite accurate. The Harlot is the demon of the feminine mind, the corrupted form of Eve. It is rather appropriate that the serpent attacks her with, as you said yourself, semen. She denies she is a widow, so who was her husband meant to be? Jesus died, ascended and left her behind. The logical result of the purification of the world from the corrupted Eve is the perfected form of Eve, a feminine ascension. Jesus comes back for her: the wedding of the Lamb.