Unlocking Job

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick I thought it might be worthwhile to spend some time exploring the book of Job and digging into a few interesting details about this adversary figure. It's widely acknowledged, even among many scholars, that the adversary in Job isn’t portrayed as the ultimate enemy of God, at least not in the way many Christians today believe or fear.

In fact, the Satan presents more as a bitter, jealous adversary of Job, of the same mind as Cain who slew his brother from envy, because his works were evil and his brothers righteous.

Here are some basic points for the purpose of this book:

1. To reveal the character and righteousness of God.
2. To explain and validate God's discipline in the lives of the righteous.
3. To demonstrate how a true child of God is refined and perfected through trial.
4. To highlight the role, position, and function of both the adversary and the mediator in that refining process.

The Central Question of the Book of Job: Why Do the Righteous Suffer?

God always has a purpose in the suffering of His people, though the reasons may vary, they are all ultimately aimed at their refinement and future glorification. Often, as in Job’s case, the purpose lies beyond human understanding unless God chooses to reveal it.

Suffering acts as a refining fire, it purifies the heart, burns away the dross of character, and develops a steadfast spirit. It produces inner wisdom, cultivates humility, and deepens our empathy for others in affliction.

Key insights:

1. Sometimes the righteous must suffer so that the wicked might be moved to repent.
2. Suffering tests a person’s faith but can also lead them to a deeper recognition of God's righteousness.

 

[Wick Stick]

I'm happy to discuss, although I don't think most of the faithful will be receptive when I say...

There's a problem with the book of Job. It's not an Israelite book.

Job was originally a book of the Canaanites, who passed it down to the Edomites, who then gave it to the Israelites. It got a couple revisions along the way to bring it closer to orthodoxy, but... they weren't entirely successful.

If the idea here is to look at the 'council' in the early chapters of Job - including Satan - then first we need to understand something. That 'council' arises out of Canaanite religion; not Judaism.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The story of Job was meant to help us recognize God’s hand at work:

1. The Sabeans attacked [by men]
2. Lightning struck [by God]
3. The Chaldeans attacked [by men]
4. A tornado struck [by God]

Each time, the messenger said: “I alone have escaped to tell you.” This repetition highlights that God was behind it all, just as His hand is often present in our own trials and suffering.

From this, we’re left with two possible conclusions:

1. Either we see it as harsh, undeserved punishment and assume that Yahweh has turned against us;
2. Or, we recognize it as the loving discipline of an all-wise Father, working for our ultimate good and the benefit of others—and we must patiently endure and learn to cooperate with His purpose.

 

[Wick Stick]

The story of Job was meant to help us recognize God’s hand at work:

1. The Sabeans attacked [by men]
2. Lightning struck [by God]
3. The Chaldeans attacked [by men]
4. A tornado struck [by God]

Each time, the messenger said: “I alone have escaped to tell you.” This repetition highlights that God was behind it all, just as His hand is often present in our own trials and suffering.

It's a bit more dramatic than that...

The "lightning" in question destroyed a flock of 5,000 sheep. The text describes it as "the fire of God fallen from heaven."

The "tornado" is described as "great wind" striking the home from all 4 sides. What is envisioned are the 4 winds of heaven. In other literature of the period, they are considered one of the most powerful weapons of the gods. E.g. in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the hero attempts to borrow them from the gods for the purpose of fighting and defeating the monster Humbaba.

From this, we’re left with two possible conclusions:

1. Either we see it as harsh, undeserved punishment and assume that Yahweh has turned against us;

One of Job's "friends" later in the book suggests that idea to Job, and it is rejected.

2. Or, we recognize it as the loving discipline of an all-wise Father, working for our ultimate good and the benefit of others—and we must patiently endure and learn to cooperate with His purpose.

I... don't think that's the lesson here, either.

I know this story has a happy ending, but I don't think it originally did. The happy ending here is only half a dozen verses tacked onto the end of a book that has 42 chapters. In the several chapters before the end, God is actively angry with Job and his 3 "friends." Nowhere in the first 41 chapters is any sort of restitution hinted at. No beneficent plan seems to be ongoing.

The lessons I see are:
a) The righteous endure tribulation with grace,
b) Do not bring accusation against God, and
c) God is the creator, and our protector

Canaanite epic poetry loves a good tragedy. The hardships that characters like Job and Danel (not Daniel) endure, seem to reveal their worthiness and righteousness. Happy endings are not assured in those stories.

Point (c) might seem unrelated to the other two at first, but the book of Job spends a lot of space on this idea. God is envisioned as being the restrainer of natural forces of chaos that would otherwise consume all of humanity. If He should remove His protection for a moment, and we suffer... we ought not to blame God for the suffering, but to thank Him for all the time He prevented it.

 

[XtraPercept]

It's not an Israelite book.

Job is a wonderful and very ancient book. We know the Origin, it's author is True.

Your attempts to rend the text of such ancient manuscripts show where your heart is at. You cannot touch the Essence because He is foreign to you. You have shame to embrace before wisdom will enter.

The story of Job was meant to help us recognize God’s hand at work:

You make a good post, friend! I appreciate the points you highlight. I would like to contribute.

The whole Bible shows us His hand, but it's variety can teach us His voice. His words. His ways.

Do not think at any point that the Almighty Creator of all things was somehow stymied or in any way altered. He glorifies His worthy name as He wills and it was Job's great honor and glory to be the man to live this story as recorded. Job possessed a righteous heart and was rewarded with many treasures.

Those who seek Him in earnest only get good and wonderful things from His hand! Why seek to avoid what He gives? Is suffering an evil? This is why many do not know Him as they desire, they reject what He gives them and despise it as evil, the unforgivable blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I love everything the Master gives me, whether He sheds my water or sheds my blood, the Master will do with me as He pleases to glorify His name and I am so tremendously honored to serve Him.

 

[Wick Stick]

Your attempts to rend the text of such ancient manuscripts show where your heart is at. You cannot touch the Essence because He is foreign to you. You have shame to embrace before wisdom will enter.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Your false piety makes you blind.

 

[XtraPercept]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Your false piety makes you blind.

You are blinded of your own free will.

I am a testimony to the saving power of Jesus Christ and proudly declare His name above all names. I welcome your contention.

I would welcome you as well. I know what you want and I have Him, which is why I contend on His behalf, to declare the truth He has given me with the command to feed His sheep. I love His words and I enjoy using them to make sense of the things He has conveyed. The language is His, the grammatical structure, the voice, the tone, everything is His.

I give my Lord and Savior all credit for all that I am because He has given me everlasting life, and I praise Him so boldly because He has given me His Certainty. I know that He is real by virtue of personal and undeniable experience of His glorious presence. And though I'm not perfected yet, I know I am in His power and care, and thus I fear nothing and speak and write as I am led.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Wow



So Xtra enjoys playing games! and here I was thinking I was special. Tut tut @Wick Stick

 

[XtraPercept]

Wow

View attachment 67816

So Xtra enjoys playing games! and here I was thinking I was special. Tut tut @Wick Stick

If I play a game, I make sure to observe the rules carefully.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is most difficult about proving a fallen angel from Job is the consistent acknowledgement of Who was responsible for these trails.

It was evident to all that God had allowed the evil that befell Job.

• The Adversary:
  “Stretch out Your hand and touch…” (1:11; 2:5)
• Job himself:
  “The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away.” (1:21)
  “Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” (2:10)
  “The arrows of the Almighty are within me.” (6:4)
  “He crushes me… multiplies my wounds without cause.” (9:17)
  “Your hands made me… yet You would destroy me.” (10:8)
  “Know then that God has wronged me.” (19:6)
  “As God lives, who has taken away my justice…” (27:2)
• Job’s friends:
  “Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.” (5:17)
  “He has cast your sons away for their transgression.” (8:4)
  “God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.” (11:6)
• God Himself:
  “You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (2:3)
  “…All the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.” (42:11)

@Wick Stick If one were to expect such an evil creature to be described in the book, wouldn’t it be reasonable for God’s children to be aware of its existence?

This is why many Scholars are relooking at this subject and have already discounted any mention of this creature in all the OT.

 

[XtraPercept]

It was nice chatting with you. I'll leave you be.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Ultimately, the reader is led to the conclusion that the adversary is not powerful, but rather a powerless, envious figure, more like a resentful accuser (human) than a mighty angel.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It was nice chatting with you. I'll leave you be.

Who are you again?

 

[Wick Stick]

What is most difficult about proving a fallen angel from Job is the consistent acknowledgement of Who was responsible for these trails.

It was evident to all that God had allowed the evil that befell Job.

• The Adversary:
  “Stretch out Your hand and touch…” (1:11; 2:5)
• Job himself:
  “The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away.” (1:21)
  “Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” (2:10)
  “The arrows of the Almighty are within me.” (6:4)
  “He crushes me… multiplies my wounds without cause.” (9:17)
  “Your hands made me… yet You would destroy me.” (10:8)
  “Know then that God has wronged me.” (19:6)
  “As God lives, who has taken away my justice…” (27:2)
• Job’s friends:
  “Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.” (5:17)
  “He has cast your sons away for their transgression.” (8:4)
  “God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.” (11:6)
• God Himself:
  “You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (2:3)
  “…All the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.” (42:11)

In Canaanite beliefs, their chief god EL was the father of all the Elohim. Many of his children - the "sons of EL" - were adopted. The coronation ceremony for Canaanite kings was an adoption to the god - thereby making them divine sons. (David observed such at his own coronation in Psalm 2).

I say that in order to say this. You want to put a difference between the divine and the terrestrial. But the Canaanites... didn't. They really saw their kings as having become gods. From their point of view, a king who fell WAS a fallen god. That makes it hard to make that distinction.

@Wick Stick If one were to expect such an evil creature to be described in the book, wouldn’t it be reasonable for God’s children to be aware of its existence?

This is why many Scholars are relooking at this subject and have already discounted any mention of this creature in all the OT.

Most scholars discount everything supernatural - including God. Most scholars are atheists.

 

[Hiddenthings]

In Canaanite beliefs, their chief god EL was the father of all the Elohim. Many of his children - the "sons of EL" - were adopted. The coronation ceremony for Canaanite kings was an adoption to the god - thereby making them divine sons. (David observed such at his own coronation in Psalm 2).

I say that in order to say this. You want to put a difference between the divine and the terrestrial. But the Canaanites... didn't. They really saw their kings as having become gods. From their point of view, a king who fell WAS a fallen god. That makes it hard to make that distinction.

Most scholars discount everything supernatural - including God. Most scholars are atheists.

I’m referencing Christian scholars and theologians.

It seems you may lean more toward a mythological interpretations?

Do you also draw out the Divine principles intended in the Word, or is your focus primarily on historical context?

 

[Wick Stick]

I’m referencing Christian scholars and theologians.

It's the nature of scholars to discount what they can't explain - Christian or not.

It seems you may lean more toward a mythological interpretations?

For Job? The creation story in Job does contain a mythology (God's speech, ch. 38-41), but otherwise...

Most of the book is arranged as a dialectic philosophical work. While it makes reference both to events that are historical and mythological, neither of those things is very important. The important content is the arguments made by Job, his friends, and ultimately God.

Do you also draw out the Divine principles intended in the Word, or is your focus primarily on historical context?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say 'draw out the Divine principles.' If you mean topical studies and cross-referencing of words, then I do that. If you mean a system of theology, I also do that... though my system is a work-in-progress.

I like learning history and I enjoy when it informs my understanding of the Bible. I'm also a student of the Biblical languages, ancient near east culture, and geography of the holy land. But...

I wouldn't say my focus is 'primarily on historical context.' I think it's good to understand the original context, but that the use of Scripture shouldn't be limited strictly to that one use or interpretation.

As I see it, Jesus and His apostles use the words of the OT prophets as a pattern for life. They apply words out-of-context to their own lives. They even seek to 'fulfill' prophecies that had already come true. That seems to be the correct way to use Scripture... I don't think I know better than Jesus.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's the nature of scholars to discount what they can't explain - Christian or not.

In my experience on this forum, the commonly held belief in a "fallen angel" cannot be clearly explained from the Bible. Those who have attempted to defend it have struggled to present a coherent, scripturally grounded case. The more honest ones will admit things like, “It’s tricky,” or say, “It could mean this… or maybe that.” Such vagueness, especially around what is often treated as a core Christian doctrine, raises serious concerns.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick

Take this example here:

Unlocking Isaiah 14

A literal goat? I need more Wick, sorry Most Bible scholars today think that Azazel is the name of a god or devil - that's why it appears as a name rather than being translated. One die is cast for the Lord, and the other die is cast for... who? a literal goat? :IDK: Ancient tradition ALSO...

www.christianityboard.com

While this is positioned at Aunty Jane use the same reasoning for all denominations who believe in this creature of darkness.

If this being was responsible for throwing people into prison during the 1st–3rd centuries, then why isn’t that happening today? By the way, that question went unanswered and we both know why. It’s the same reason people consistently fall short when handling Genesis 3:1, they cannot grasp what the verse is actually saying for all the confusion in their minds.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Once we have established the adversary in this account is not a fallen angel we can move onto other known satan's in the story.

Job's wife failed to be a true helper when he needed her most. In a similar manner she is more like Peter toward Christ speaking the things of men and not of God.

Job 2:9–10 — Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!” [In other words: Keep serving God and die for it!] But he replied, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this, Job did not sin with his lips.

James 3:2, 8 — We all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body. But no one can tame the tongue it is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

From the beginning, the tongue has been the primary instrument through which the carnal mind expresses the thoughts of the flesh, not those of the Spirit.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Striking Parallels Between Job and Christ

1. Both were remarkably righteous.
2. Both endured suffering more intensely than any others recorded in Scripture.
3. Both remained steadfast—Yahweh knew they would not falter.
4. Both were brought low in utter humiliation.
5. Both were completely despised and rejected.
6. Both were perfected through suffering.
7. Both suffered, not for themselves, but for the benefit of others.

Perfected Through Suffering

Job and Christ were each made perfect through suffering. Although Christ was wholly righteous, without blemish, his perfection was completed through the suffering he willingly embraced. Through unwavering love and absolute trust in his Father, he endured pain and sacrificial death.

Job, the most righteous man of his generation, stood as a giant of faith and perseverance. Yet even he had room to grow. In the end, Job openly acknowledged his need for deeper understanding. He had to learn one of the most humbling truths: that human righteousness, no matter how sincere or diligent, holds no ultimate value on its own. True salvation comes solely through God's grace, His kindness expressed in Christ Jesus. It is through this grace that God’s character is formed within us.