US City Subpoenas Pastors' Sermons in Culture War Witch Hunt

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Angelina

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Charisma News Staff - Houston Texas

City officials are upset over a voter lawsuit filed after the City Council rejected valid petitions to repeal a law that allows members of the opposite sex into each other's restrooms. ADF attorneys say the city is illegitimately demanding that the pastors, who are not party to the lawsuit, turn over their constitutionally protected sermons and other communications simply so the city can see if the pastors have ever opposed or criticized the city.
http://www.charismanews.com/us/45760-us-city-subpoenas-pastors-sermons-in-culture-war-witch-hunt
 

IanLC

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This is blatantly unconstitutional! The courts will not allow it to hold. This shows the direction the United States is heading and its not a free or progressive one but a regressive one!
 

sojourner4Christ

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If the "church" has accepted any benefit whatsoever (tax exemption, charitable status, "free" mail delivery, ad nauseum ) from the gov't, then their supposed "constitutionally protected" status does not apply. They will indeed render unto Caesar.

BTW, the authority of Caesar would also encompass the "church's" refusal to, for example, conduct same-sex weddings or its preaching against sodomy.

There is a form of obedience which leads to death. The authority to which you have submitted is the authority to which you will render. And Caesar en-forces his contracts...
 

River Jordan

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From what I can tell, the City is trying to subpoena all communications about the equal rights ordinance from those directly tied to the lawsuit. IOW to be clear, it's not "we want every sermon given by every pastor", it's "we want any sermons on this subject given by pastors who have ties to the case".

It's an interesting legal question. Let's say for example that a Muslim Imam gave a sermon at a Mosque where he incited his followers to commit acts of terror. Would that be protected speech not subject to a subpoena? Or let's get a little more benign and say that a Pastor at a church gave a sermon where he told his followers that John Doe is a pedophile and no one should be going into his store. Can John Doe sue the Pastor and subpoena the sermon as evidence of slander?

I don't know of any legal precedent that says sermons are confidential and therefore not subpoenable.

Specific to this case, I think it may come down to the actual basis for the lawsuit. The plaintiffs are suing, claiming that the City Council wrongfully rejected their referendum petition. I think the Council will have a hard time demonstrating that the contents of sermons are relevant to the question of whether the petitions are valid.

So overall, I'd tentatively say sermons are not necessarily protected from court subpoenas, but in this case the court probably won't grant the Council's request (because it's not necessarily germane to the legal issue at hand).
 

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sojourner4Christ said:
If the "church" has accepted any benefit whatsoever (tax exemption, charitable status, "free" mail delivery, ad nauseum ) from the gov't, then their supposed "constitutionally protected" status does not apply. They will indeed render unto Caesar.

BTW, the authority of Caesar would also encompass the "church's" refusal to, for example, conduct same-sex weddings or its preaching against sodomy.

There is a form of obedience which leads to death. The authority to which you have submitted is the authority to which you will render. And Caesar en-forces his contracts...

Government derives its authority from force, not from any willingness on the part of citizens or citizen organizations. Any church, church records, finances, etc. can be seized with or without participation in 501.c3 tax exemption or any other community resource.

The fact that some sort of sense of fair play has been violated is pure illusion. Government, like God, isn't fair.

Since the constitution was rescinded on October 26, 2001, there are technically no individual rights before the law either.

What I'm trying to say here is that statements of "submitting to authority" are purely academic, since the government can take whatever it wants, any time it wants, for any reason it wants. There is no longer any guarantee of protection.

"Submission to authority" is a cheap preacher's gimmick to get gullible sheep in line to pass donations to the church coffers. We've all heard the line for so long we have come to believe the statement has its own authority. It doesn't.

It has nothing to do with justifying government action or the lack of it. Government takes what it wants by force. Preachers have to use clever ruses, since they have no force of their own. What all of them fail to recognize is that the practice of religion is itself an expression of freedom. It's not required by government or by any corporation. It's entirely up to the individual. So too are contributions of money and time to the religion. In no other part of a man's life is he so free. Preachers, therefore, have to create a false 'hook' to get people programmed into behaving according to the preacher's wishes. Hence, they are told they must submit, when in fact they don't.

The only real authority any man, free or otherwise, that has a legitimate claim upon a man's allegiance is Christ Jesus. Any other person or organization is limited in its claims. No one and no organization has the right to do so.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

sojourner4Christ

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May 23, 2014
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Government derives its authority from force, not from any willingness on the part of citizens or citizen organizations. Any church, church records, finances, etc. can be seized with or without participation in 501.c3 tax exemption or any other community resource.

The fact that some sort of sense of fair play has been violated is pure illusion. Government, like God, isn't fair.

Since the constitution was rescinded on October 26, 2001, there are technically no individual rights before the law either.

What I'm trying to say here is that statements of "submitting to authority" are purely academic, since the government can take whatever it wants, any time it wants, for any reason it wants. There is no longer any guarantee of protection.

"Submission to authority" is a cheap preacher's gimmick to get gullible sheep in line to pass donations to the church coffers. We've all heard the line for so long we have come to believe the statement has its own authority. It doesn't.

It has nothing to do with justifying government action or the lack of it. Government takes what it wants by force. Preachers have to use clever ruses, since they have no force of their own. What all of them fail to recognize is that the practice of religion is itself an expression of freedom. It's not required by government or by any corporation. It's entirely up to the individual. So too are contributions of money and time to the religion. In no other part of a man's life is he so free. Preachers, therefore, have to create a false 'hook' to get people programmed into behaving according to the preacher's wishes. Hence, they are told they must submit, when in fact they don't.

The only real authority any man, free or otherwise, that has a legitimate claim upon a man's allegiance is Christ Jesus. Any other person or organization is limited in its claims. No one and no organization has the right to do so.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
That was a mouthful! And amazingly, it is all demonstrably researchably true!

Since the constitution was rescinded on October 26, 2001, there are technically no individual rights before the law either.
Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and his authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

An objection is that the Constitution contains Christian principles and therefore is a sort of halfway covenant. As evidence of this, they may offer that the Constitution presents us with a system of divided authority and diffused powers. Even covenant-breaking historians would admit that Christian principles exist within the Constitution while denying that it is a Christian covenant (the word “God” does not appear in the “Constitution”). The problem with this is that every government that exists contains Christian principles. In fact, any truth or correct "morality" is a Christian principle. All true and good principles are Christian principles because this universe is created and governed by the true and living God who has revealed himself in the Bible. Islamic governments contain many Biblical principles, such as capital punishment. That does not, however, save them from condemnation as apostate covenants. We must return to the question, what sort of Christian principles constitute a Christian government and what make an apostate government? The Biblical covenant model is the Biblical model and therefore the only proper judge of whether or not a state is a covenant-keeping one.

In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the United States Supreme Court holds that the state of Maryland can not require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. This verifies that the U.S. Constitution allows Atheists to rule and make laws for bondservants of Christ!

“We the people...” = the religion of humanism. This is why you have Satanists ruling over you today -- and you signed on to their program voluntarily!
 

heretoeternity

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As someone posted here, those tax exemption provisions for religions organizatins is coming back to bite them..the pastors, preachers, teachers or whatever are effectively muzzled by the government from speaking out on the pressing issues of the day..homosexuality, sodomy, abortion, moral decay and whatever...they have sold their soul for that tax exempt provision..no wonder, they are not speaking out on those issues, which are causing the once great republic of the USA to become completely satanic..
 

Raeneske

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heretoeternity said:
As someone posted here, those tax exemption provisions for religions organizatins is coming back to bite them..the pastors, preachers, teachers or whatever are effectively muzzled by the government from speaking out on the pressing issues of the day..homosexuality, sodomy, abortion, moral decay and whatever...they have sold their soul for that tax exempt provision..no wonder, they are not speaking out on those issues, which are causing the once great republic of the USA to become completely satanic..
As students of prophecy have been sharing, the 501c3 tax exempt status affects what you can and cannot preach upon the pulpit. With our government becoming as corrupt as it is, it's only a matter of time before the truth regarding certain matters is openly suppressed and oppressed. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Pastors are already forced to clam up about certain prophetic events.

The government and Pastors have already been found to be teaming up together, that the Pastor will deliver a sermon to the flock which the government wants.

[SIZE=14pt]Chicago Suburb Battles Crime With Clergy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]May 30, 2003
By Brandon Loomis
Associated Press Writer

HARVEY, Ill. (AP) -
[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The mayor[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of this crime-ridden Chicago suburb says the town needs help that conventional forces cannot render. So he has turned to [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]six Christian ministers[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], one for each ward. In a move that worries civil libertarians, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Mayor Eric Kellogg has appointed the volunteer chaplains to comfort crime victims and promote neighborhood activism[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] in the poverty-stricken town of 30,000. Kellogg said the ministers' unpaid duties do not violate the separation of church and state because they do not proselytize. "We're not dealing with separation. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]We're dealing with collaboration[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]," Kellogg said Wednesday. The American Civil Liberties Union worries that a line has nonetheless been crossed. "Our major concern is that [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]this really amounts to a government promotion of religious values, and a particular religious value[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]," said Ed Yohnka, spokesman for the group's [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Chicago[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] office. "When you have a tragedy, there are many people who would turn to their faith. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The question is whether government should be sending someone out there to promote their particular faith[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]."[/SIZE]

This is fine, one may say. There is no problem with preaching against crime and sin. And I agree. But...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/14/city-houston-demands-pastors-turn-over-sermons/

"The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.

...

The subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over the Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa. The city council approved the law in June.

The Houston Chronicle reported opponents of the ordinance launched a petition drive that generated more than 50,000 signatures – far more than the 17,269 needed to put a referendum on the ballot."

This is where this 501c3 mess will lead. Pastors will not be allowed to say and to preach against certain issues, like homosexuality. In Canada, it's already illegal to share the Bible with a homosexual. You can get 5 years in prison for doing that.
 

sojourner4Christ

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Secret FEMA Plan To Use Pastors as Pacifiers in Preparation For Martial Law. Nationwide initiative trains volunteers to teach congregations to "obey the government" during seizure of guns, property, forced inoculations and forced relocation.

A KSLA News report confirmed that Clergy Response Teams are being trained by the federal government DHS to “quell dissent” and pacify citizens to obey the government in the event of a declaration of martial law.


State-Run Churches Caught Red-Handed. Many 501( c)(3) pastors promote government viewpoints rather than liberty.

An Overview of Pastoral Crisis Intervention and Debriefing
 

River Jordan

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There's an important distinction to that story, namely...

The city of Coeur d’Alene has an ordinance that prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation, in public accommodations. It does have a religious exemption, but the Hitching Post is a for-profit company, not technically a religious organization, in spite of the Knapp’s deeply held personal beliefs.
IOW, this isn't a church, it's a for-profit business.
 

sojourner4Christ

sojourning non-citizen
May 23, 2014
388
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Doesn't matter. They have submitted to Caesar's authority, whether as a non-profit, tax exempt, or for-profit; thus, to Caesar they will render...

IOW, there is a world of difference between immunity and exemption.
 

heretoeternity

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Yup, the churches signing onto those tax exemptions, for the love of money have compromised their position for immunity under freedom of religion...they better kick the money habit, and give up those exemptions, if it is not too late!