Victorious Eschatology

[RubberDuckey]

Has anybody read "victorious eschatology" - by Harold Eberle and [font="arial][size="2"]Martin Trench[/size][/font]? They present a different more biblically accurate understanding of what happens in the end (in my opinion). If so, what do you think about it. I happen to agree with it partly because I never understood the classic understanding of the end times that most people believe. Once I read a key statement in the book I knew that a loving God would do the things depicted in victorious eschatology. Probably the only time I can say I got a massage from the holly spirit!

We went to a "back yard church" and Harold was preaching. The funny thing is when he gets excited he would say "HOOYA!" After he was done he prophesied for everybody and was very accurate for me. Hear are some videos he made that break down things in the bible and goes through them step by step. http://www.worldcast...bible_study.asp

 

[tomwebster]

Has anybody read "victorious eschatology" - by Harold Eberle and [font="arial][size="2"]Martin Trench[/size][/font]? They present a different more biblically accurate understanding of what happens in the end (in my opinion). If so, what do you think about it. I happen to agree with it partly because I never understood the classic understanding of the end times that most people believe. Once I read a key statement in the book I knew that a loving God would do the things depicted in victorious eschatology. Probably the only time I can say I got a massage from the holly spirit!

We went to a "back yard church" and Harold was preaching. The funny thing is when he gets excited he would say "HOOYA!" After he was done he prophesied for everybody ...

He seems to have the view that Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD so there is no need to read any more, because that is a false teaching.

 

[RubberDuckey]

He seems to have the view that Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD so there is no need to read any more, because that is a false teaching.

You seem very closed minded. Who gave you the authority to say that is false teaching?

 

[tomwebster]

You seem very closed minded. Who gave you the authority to say that is false teaching?

God did in Scripture!

 

[veteran]

Is that really how young people today see those who stick to Scripture, like we're being "closed minded"?

Does that mean we in Christ are supposed to have an attitude like the Greek philosophers of old who got thrills at the hearing any new doctrine that came around?


Acts 17:21
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
(KJV)

God's Truth in His Word is very, very specific, exact and very, very cornered. In other words, God's Word is going to be very boring to those who only want to hear new things in their ears like the superstitous Greek philosophers. What's ironic is how disciplined Bible study, doing it God's Way with His help, opens up eternal Truths and Mysteries of His Kingdom that all the philosophers have wanted, but can't ever get close to.

 

[RubberDuckey]

God did in Scripture!

You only know of the futuristic view. How could you know for sure that God meant what you think he meant.

Is that really how young people today see those who stick to Scripture, like we're being "closed minded"?

Does that mean we in Christ are supposed to have an attitude like the Greek philosophers of old who got thrills at the hearing any new doctrine that came around?

Many men and woman would think of you as closed minded and unable to explore the possible truths. In fact I'm the only young person I know of that believes the victorious view.

In fact this view has been around longer than the futuristic view. The futuristic view has only been around for 100 years I believe. I'm going on memory, but if you need me to dig up the source then I can.

 

[revturmoil]

tomwebster said,

He seems to have the view that Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD so there is no need to read any more, because that is a false teaching.

Rubber Ducky said,

You seem very closed minded. Who gave you the authority to say that is false teaching?

I would say that someone who believes Mt 24 was completely fulfilled in 70 A.D. is closed minded, deceived, and a false teacher too!

It's not that difficult to determine that the prophecies of Mathew 24 go through the age of grace.

 

[RubberDuckey]

God's Truth in His Word is very, very specific, exact and very, very cornered. In other words, God's Word is going to be very boring to those who only want to hear new things in their ears like the superstitous Greek philosophers. What's ironic is how disciplined Bible study, doing it God's Way with His help, opens up eternal Truths and Mysteries of His Kingdom that all the philosophers have wanted, but can't ever get close to.

God is very exact. If you read Matthew 23 and 24 with a truly open and unbiased heart, then you will know the truth. Matthew 23:36 Matthew 24:34 Twice Jesus said that all these things he described would happen within his generation. That is exactly what Jesus said. Are you telling us that Jesus was wrong?

btw, I'm glad we can talk about this. Even though I may sound angry or harsh I'm not. text really doesn't do justice. : /

 

[tomwebster]

God is very exact. If you read Matthew 23 and 24 with a truly open and unbiased heart, then you will know the truth. Matthew 23:36 Matthew 24:34 Twice Jesus said that all these things he described would happen within his generation. That is exactly what Jesus said. Are you telling us that Jesus was wrong?

btw, I'm glad we can talk about this. Even though I may sound angry or harsh I'm not. text really doesn't do justice. : /

Something thing for you to learn here rd, that might help you with both of these texts: subject and object. Mt 23:36 is talking about a different generation than Mt 24:34. Mt 24:34 is talking about fig tree generation. That generation started in 1947-8. It is not talking about Christ's generation. If you don't understand the parable of the fig tree you should study it, that generation is getting gray hair now.

 

[revturmoil]

Something thing for you to learn here rd, that might help you with both of these texts: subject and object. Mt 23:36 is talking about a different generation than Mt 24:34. Mt 24:34 is talking about fig tree generation. That generation started in 1947-8. It is not talking about Christ's generation. If you don't understand the parable of the fig tree you should study it, that generation is getting gray hair now.

Agreed!
In Jeremiah 24:1-10 and Hosea 9:10 fig trees represent Israel. What generation is Jesus speaking of?

The generation that sees Israel bud forth and become a nation again is the generation Jesus is talking about. He's not talking about his generation!

Matthew 24:32 　¶Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 　So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 　Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke 21:29-31: Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

 

[RubberDuckey]

Something thing for you to learn here rd, that might help you with both of these texts: subject and object. Mt 23:36 is talking about a different generation than Mt 24:34. Mt 24:34 is talking about fig tree generation. That generation started in 1947-8. It is not talking about Christ's generation. If you don't understand the parable of the fig tree you should study it, that generation is getting gray hair now.

I don't understand the fig analogy. Do you think you could find a source to explain it? Thanks!

Agreed!
In Jeremiah 24:1-10 and Hosea 9:10 fig trees represent Israel. What generation is Jesus speaking of?

The generation that sees Israel bud forth and become a nation again is the generation Jesus is talking about. He's not talking about his generation!

Matthew 24:32 　¶Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 　So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 　Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke 21:29-31: Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Whether you guys believe it or not it's a good read. I study a little bit about many different faiths. That doesn't mean I believe them. I'm simply building my knowledge of those faiths. I encourage you to read it.

 

[revturmoil]

I don't understand the fig analogy. Do you think you could find a source to explain it? Thanks!




Whether you guys believe it or not it's a good read. I study a little bit about many different faiths. That doesn't mean I believe them. I'm simply building my knowledge of those faiths. I encourage you to read it.

If it's about preterism I won't spend a minute readin it. I've debunked preterism over 35 years ago. Tell me. Is it a preterist book? Or is it partial preterism?

 

[veteran]

Many men and woman would think of you as closed minded and unable to explore the possible truths. In fact I'm the only young person I know of that believes the victorious view.

In fact this view has been around longer than the futuristic view. The futuristic view has only been around for 100 years I believe. I'm going on memory, but if you need me to dig up the source then I can.

No sources needed. Not a whole lot of religions or religious ideas I'm not familiar with, including eastern and western philosophy. But I gave study of all that up when God began to open up His Word to me when I came to His Son. Then it was line upon line in His Word for several years. All those who came to the front door pushing their religion and books that my mother bought (for not wanting to offend), well, I read those too as a teenager.

And by the way; I don't claim to be a Futurist. I believe 'some' of the ideas from most all the seminary schools of thought. I was raised in a Protestant Church that was mainly on Preterism. I don't claim to be of them either.

And I definitely believe that Christ has been victorious since He died on the cross and The Father raised Him. But because there is so much written in the prophets that still... is not yet fulfilled today, I know there's still another Victory coming when He comes the second time. The second time is our redemption to Him de facto. Also, I can go into just HOW Christ's Kingdom was instituted on earth after His crucifixion, but entrusted to His husbandmen until He comes the second and final time to inherit His vineyard de facto, in Person. Understanding and believing that latter part per God's Word does not make one a Futurist. And there's danger with ideas that leave off that latter Victory by Christ when He comes the second time with a two-edged sword.

I may not convince you how important it is to go into God's Word line upon line for yourself first (asking God's help). But I'm gonna' try.

The first reason is because the time is short.

The second reason is because ideas from other religous beliefs can cloud understanding in God's Word, especially if study in all of God's Word isn't done first.

Thirdly, lot of men's doctrines pose as Biblical doctrine, when it's not. Some of it actually is derived from other religions.

Fourthly, many think they heard God whisper "go preach" to them when He really said "go study".

Fifthly, only our Heavenly Father through His Son by The Holy Spirit can give us understanding in His Word. His called servants can help, but they can't do it for you.

Sixth, it's because the time is short.

 

[revturmoil]

Fifthly, only our Heavenly Father through His Son by The Holy Spirit can give us understanding in His Word

Not to be a killjoy but red flags always come up with me when people say those things because everybody seems to think that the Holy Spirit enlightens them even if they're beliefs are in direct opposition to God's Word. Some even go to the extent to say they don't need other biblical resources because God reveals truth to them.

Yes God does give us understanding but we have to be objective in our studies. How can God give someone understanding if they believe they've already been enlightened and already have the truth?

 

[RubberDuckey]

If it's about preterism I won't spend a minute readin it. I've debunked preterism over 35 years ago. Tell me. Is it a preterist book? Or is it partial preterism?

It is a partial preterism I believe. Don't quote me on that as I'm not too hot with terms.

 

[RubberDuckey]

No sources needed. Not a whole lot of religions or religious ideas I'm not familiar with, including eastern and western philosophy. But I gave study of all that up when God began to open up His Word to me when I came to His Son. Then it was line upon line in His Word for several years. All those who came to the front door pushing their religion and books that my mother bought (for not wanting to offend), well, I read those too as a teenager.

And by the way; I don't claim to be a Futurist. I believe 'some' of the ideas from most all the seminary schools of thought. I was raised in a Protestant Church that was mainly on Preterism. I don't claim to be of them either.

And I definitely believe that Christ has been victorious since He died on the cross and The Father raised Him. But because there is so much written in the prophets that still... is not yet fulfilled today, I know there's still another Victory coming when He comes the second time. The second time is our redemption to Him de facto. Also, I can go into just HOW Christ's Kingdom was instituted on earth after His crucifixion, but entrusted to His husbandmen until He comes the second and final time to inherit His vineyard de facto, in Person. Understanding and believing that latter part per God's Word does not make one a Futurist. And there's danger with ideas that leave off that latter Victory by Christ when He comes the second time with a two-edged sword.

I may not convince you how important it is to go into God's Word line upon line for yourself first (asking God's help). But I'm gonna' try.

The first reason is because the time is short.

The second reason is because ideas from other religous beliefs can cloud understanding in God's Word, especially if study in all of God's Word isn't done first.

Thirdly, lot of men's doctrines pose as Biblical doctrine, when it's not. Some of it actually is derived from other religions.

Fourthly, many think they heard God whisper "go preach" to them when He really said "go study".

Fifthly, only our Heavenly Father through His Son by The Holy Spirit can give us understanding in His Word. His called servants can help, but they can't do it for you.

Sixth, it's because the time is short.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I DO NOT believe preterism. I believe many of the events in the bible already happened in 70AD and many are still to happen. That would be called partial preterism I think. A revelation is still to happen. To claim the events in revelation already happened is just wrong. I didn't even know people believed that!

 

[veteran]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I DO NOT believe preterism. I believe many of the events in the bible already happened in 70AD and many are still to happen. That would be called partial preterism I think. A revelation is still to happen. To claim the events in revelation already happened is just wrong. I didn't even know people believed that!

That's good, because Full Preterism is dangerous. I'm not a Preterist either. But I can see how some interpret portions of our Lord's Olivet Discourse as 70 A.D. history. But I only see Matt.24 as serving as a pattern for 70 A.D., with the time of the end as when it's actually meant for.

 

[RubberDuckey]

Something thing for you to learn here rd, that might help you with both of these texts: subject and object. Mt 23:36 is talking about a different generation than Mt 24:34. Mt 24:34 is talking about fig tree generation. That generation started in 1947-8. It is not talking about Christ's generation. If you don't understand the parable of the fig tree you should study it, that generation is getting gray hair now.

I was looking over that fig metaphor and I have a different understanding of it

Matthew 24 [sup]32[/sup] “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.[sup]33[/sup] Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

Jesus is talking about if you see a fig trees leaves start to get tender and fall out you know that summer is soon to follow. Or if you see the leaves fall out of the trees fall is soon to follow. Likewise, "when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door." I really don't understand the fig tree and the generation starting at 1947. I'm trying to be as literal as possible.

 

[jiggyfly]

Has anybody read "victorious eschatology" - by Harold Eberle and [font="arial][size="2"]Martin Trench[/size][/font]? They present a different more biblically accurate understanding of what happens in the end (in my opinion). If so, what do you think about it. I happen to agree with it partly because I never understood the classic understanding of the end times that most people believe. Once I read a key statement in the book I knew that a loving God would do the things depicted in victorious eschatology. Probably the only time I can say I got a massage from the holly spirit!

We went to a "back yard church" and Harold was preaching. The funny thing is when he gets excited he would say "HOOYA!" After he was done he prophesied for everybody and was very accurate for me. Hear are some videos he made that break down things in the bible and goes through them step by step. http://www.worldcast...bible_study.asp

I'm not familiar with the book or the authors but I like the title and what it suggests. Are you familiar with Jurgen Moltmann's eschatology?

 

[RubberDuckey]

I'm not familiar with the book or the authors but I like the title and what it suggests. Are you familiar with Jurgen Moltmann's eschatology?

No I'm not. What is it about?