Visions using "outdated" language

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Keraz

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Yes and I think that is especially true for the book of revelation and Isaiah.
Of this we can be sure: God did not give us so much Prophecy for nobody to be able to understand it all. Amos 3:7, 1 Corinthians 14:22b
The problem for most in understanding, is belief in false theories. This makes it very difficult to get to the truths of what God has planned for our future.

Quote - devin...... If Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah then I will be a meerkat.
Your avatar picture looks like you are trying for meerkittens!
 

Taken

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It seems clear to me that God speaks in language that is symbolic to make it more accessible to believers and less accessible to unbelievers. He does not "throw pearls to the swine."

We understand this clearly when Jesus talked about his use of parables, to not allow unbelievers to stir up confusion over simple stories, but to allow those with right hearts to hear the simple truths about God's righteousness. But do we see how the use of symbolism in Bible Prophecy is used in just the sa

I believe God Speaks ONLY the Truth.
I believe God regularly uses “LIKENESSES”, to reveal His Truths to men, in “parallels” of what men “HAVE SEEN”.
And the WISDOM for a man, “IS”, to comprehend the “strength and power” of the “LIKE” thing.

For example; A man on his own, Tilling the Ground, or Facing an opponent is at a great disadvantage; Compared to an other man, who has an Ox, A Horse, A Plow, A Tractor to till the Ground, or A Horse, A Tank, A sword, A gun to face his opponent.

The Big Picture is:
* Men have historically and modernly used animals for strength, and created weaponry and devised schemes, plots, plans to gain the upper hand OVER their enemies...
* While God Himself, inanutshell, has Revealed, Man himself, can devise NO DEFENSE, Against the Power of Satan.
* While God Himself, inanutshell, has Revealed, God Himself, IS the ONLY Power Defense, Against Evil Satan, AND Against Wicked men.
* AND “a” man Desiring TO “stand protected” Against Evil Satan, AND “stand protected” Against Wicked men...IS ONLY, By, Through, Of...
The POWER OF God...With that man...


* And the GOOD NEWS, given men, for the Last 2,000 + years, is a new better testament OF assuredly, Of Gods “protection for a man, IN THIS WORLD, Against Evil Satan, Against Wicked men”...
IS Gods Spirit...the Supreme Power of God...
WITH AND IN A MAN”


* Heb 7
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

And WHO IS the Supreme Power of God?

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Raccoon1010

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Of this we can be sure: God did not give us so much Prophecy for nobody to be able to understand it all. Amos 3:7, 1 Corinthians 14:22b
The problem for most in understanding, is belief in false theories. This makes it very difficult to get to the truths of what God has planned for our future.

The scriptures teach us from Joseph in Egypt that only God can interpret what he has given if it's not direct or literal. Some of the parables are easier to get the idea which is not the case for visions of beasts and such. Joseph was blessed of God to give the literal meaning of Pharaohs dream.

Quote - devin...... If Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah then I will be a meerkat.
Your avatar picture looks like you are trying for meerkittens!

No hidden meaning, just picked something I thought was friendly.
 
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Enoch111

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The same is true, I believe, of Eze 40-48, where Ezekiel uses the symbolism of an OT temple to express the Jewish Hope at the end of the age. Is God trying to say temple worship will literally be restored in the endtimes, that Jewish temple worship will actually be done again?
The basic principle of sound Bible interpretation is to firstly take everything in its plain literal sense (unless there is a metaphor being used). Therefore there will definitely be a future temple in redeemed and restored Jerusalem under Christ corresponding to that described in Ezekiel (and corroborated by many other prophecies in the OT). There will also be the twelve tribes of Israel literally occupying the land of "Greater Israel" at that time. The entire prophecy of Ezekiel points to the future of Israel.

Once people begin to allegorize and symbolize things which are plain and clear, there is no end to FANTASIZING. And that is exactly what the Amillennialists have done with Scripture. It is not necessary for us to fully grasp the meaning of what is written, since many things are beyond our understanding. That is why the Bible says that "The just shall live by faith".
 

BeyondET

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It seems clear to me that God speaks in language that is symbolic to make it more accessible to believers and less accessible to unbelievers. He does not "throw pearls to the swine."

We understand this clearly when Jesus talked about his use of parables, to not allow unbelievers to stir up confusion over simple stories, but to allow those with right hearts to hear the simple truths about God's righteousness. But do we see how the use of symbolism in Bible Prophecy is used in just the same way?

When we read, for example, in Ezekiel of Gog's army coming down on horses, should we think God is speaking of literal horses, or symbolically of an endtime military mobilization? I think the latter. I think unbelievers will write this prophecy off as outdated and impossible, and will not see the dangers of divine judgment against a pagan mobilization.

The same is true, I believe, of Eze 40-48, where Ezekiel uses the symbolism of an OT temple to express the Jewish Hope at the end of the age. Is God trying to say temple worship will literally be restored in the endtimes, that Jewish temple worship will actually be done again?

I don't think so. This was a vision, and prophetic visions sometimes use parables or symbolic language to depict things that speak to believers, but not to unbelievers, who find cause for dismissing the message.

Ezekiel was speaking to people of his own time, who had failed under the temple system and under the Law of Moses. And so, they were given a vision as to how the OT temple *should* operate and will find fulfillment in the Jewish Hope.

It will not be a literal OT temple, but rather, the thing that the OT temple redemption symbolized, namely the redemption of Christ. But it will result in a real restoration of Israel, along with the many other Christian nations God promised to Abraham. The promises are literal, but the language is symbolic, to be hidden from unbelief, but revealed to faith.
Ahh the airborne Calvary.
 

quietthinker

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It seems clear to me that God speaks in language that is symbolic to make it more accessible to believers and less accessible to unbelievers. He does not "throw pearls to the swine."

We understand this clearly when Jesus talked about his use of parables, to not allow unbelievers to stir up confusion over simple stories, but to allow those with right hearts to hear the simple truths about God's righteousness. But do we see how the use of symbolism in Bible Prophecy is used in just the same way?

When we read, for example, in Ezekiel of Gog's army coming down on horses, should we think God is speaking of literal horses, or symbolically of an endtime military mobilization? I think the latter. I think unbelievers will write this prophecy off as outdated and impossible, and will not see the dangers of divine judgment against a pagan mobilization.

The same is true, I believe, of Eze 40-48, where Ezekiel uses the symbolism of an OT temple to express the Jewish Hope at the end of the age. Is God trying to say temple worship will literally be restored in the endtimes, that Jewish temple worship will actually be done again?

I don't think so. This was a vision, and prophetic visions sometimes use parables or symbolic language to depict things that speak to believers, but not to unbelievers, who find cause for dismissing the message.

Ezekiel was speaking to people of his own time, who had failed under the temple system and under the Law of Moses. And so, they were given a vision as to how the OT temple *should* operate and will find fulfillment in the Jewish Hope.

It will not be a literal OT temple, but rather, the thing that the OT temple redemption symbolized, namely the redemption of Christ. But it will result in a real restoration of Israel, along with the many other Christian nations God promised to Abraham. The promises are literal, but the language is symbolic, to be hidden from unbelief, but revealed to faith.
Throughout the human experience of history there has been two fundamental sides.....that of oppression and that of liberation from oppression.....the ultimate oppression is suffering, loss and death, the ultimate liberation is joy, connection and life.
The scriptures mirror this and uses metaphors. Metaphors include real life experiences but are not exclusive to either individuals or nations.

The Hebrew Temple was given as a metaphor for liberation. It was a model/type the which the hebrews never understood. It is still not understood today either by the Jews and or many Christians.
The reality of these things ie, either using a nation or using a particular people as metaphor, was Jesus, yet even this is misunderstood/fudged by many who claim special insight.

God's liberation is in cosmic time played out in human history and executed in Jesus ......the backdrop played out in a literal Palestine within the ethnicity of what became known as the literal Hebrews........but how this applies to living breathing failing humanity now is the very thing the evil one tries to obscure and hinder by 101 methods/interpretations/views ....either religious or secular.

Paul tells us 'all the promises of God are yes and amen in him' (Jesus) 2 Corinthians 1:20.
As Christians we need to take note and consider this closely instead of running off in a confused tangle of interpretation.
It is surely a challenge to join the dots in the order intended.....an unfolding for any true hearted friend of our loving God.
 

covenantee

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The basic principle of sound Bible interpretation is to firstly take everything in its plain literal sense (unless there is a metaphor being used). Therefore there will definitely be a future temple in redeemed and restored Jerusalem under Christ corresponding to that described in Ezekiel (and corroborated by many other prophecies in the OT). There will also be the twelve tribes of Israel literally occupying the land of "Greater Israel" at that time. The entire prophecy of Ezekiel points to the future of Israel.

Once people begin to allegorize and symbolize things which are plain and clear, there is no end to FANTASIZING. And that is exactly what the Amillennialists have done with Scripture. It is not necessary for us to fully grasp the meaning of what is written, since many things are beyond our understanding. That is why the Bible says that "The just shall live by faith".
Plain, literal, unallegorical, unsymbolical.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII


Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.
 

Randy Kluth

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Plain, literal, unallegorical, unsymbolical.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII


Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

Wow, isn't that strange? Don't know what to think, except that many of us Christians do not think it wise to try to reconstruct an outmoded form of worship. ;)
 

covenantee

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Wow, isn't that strange? Don't know what to think, except that many of us Christians do not think it wise to try to reconstruct an outmoded form of worship. ;)
True.

But the dispens among us think otherwise.
 

Timtofly

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Though we disagree on other things, I trust you know I agree with you on this. I'm *not* a Dispensationalist. But neither do I hate them. I go to a Dispensationalist church. ;)
Many quote Paul, but he was one of those heretical dispensational Pharisees. He was never given the amount of time in each dispensation, though.
 

Randy Kluth

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Many quote Paul, but he was one of those heretical dispensational Pharisees. He was never given the amount of time in each dispensation, though.

If I thought Dispensationalists were "heretics," I wouldn't be attending a Dispensationalist church. I'm AoG, and they're Dispensationalist. I agree with them on the restoration of the Israeli nation. I agree with them on some of their Futurism, such as the rise of a literal Antichrist just prior to Christ's Return. I agree with them that Revelation is speaking of the last years of the present age. Why should I call them heretical for believing Christ comes back for his Church a few years prematurely? ;)
 

Timtofly

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If I thought Dispensationalists were "heretics," I wouldn't be attending a Dispensationalist church. I'm AoG, and they're Dispensationalist. I agree with them on the restoration of the Israeli nation. I agree with them on some of their Futurism, such as the rise of a literal Antichrist just prior to Christ's Return. I agree with them that Revelation is speaking of the last years of the present age. Why should I call them heretical for believing Christ comes back for his Church a few years prematurely? ;)
What is wrong with being a redeemed heretic? Most of the martyrs were considered heretics by the heretics.
 
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