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Warning Preterist False Doctrine

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Christina, Jun 24, 2007.

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  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The word "preterist" is taken from the Latin word meaning "past." This view denies any future fulfillment of the book of Revelation and sees the events it describes as already having been fulfilled within the first century after Christ.There are several different forms of Preterism. Full Preterism views all of the prophecies of the Bible as having already been fulfilled in their entirety since the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Full Preterism is a very recent innovation that has no adherents in any of the writings of the early church.Partial Preterism maintains a future return of Christ, but views His "coming in the clouds" as described in Matthew 24:29-31 as having been fulfilled in A.D. 70 with the fall of Jerusalem.1. Jesus and Preterism.With regards to Preterism, I am reminded of the words of Jesus when He said to the disciples, "The days shall come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. And they will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day." (Luke 17:22-24).It seems to me that the Preterist is one who is pointing to the A.D. 70 event and saying, "Look there! Look here!" But there is going to be no mistaking the coming of the Son of Man when He finally returns. By contrast, none of the believers of the early church viewed the 70 A.D. fall of Jerusalem as fulfilling the promise of the return of Christ. This brings us to our next point.2. The Church Fathers and Preterism.It is clear from a reading of the apostolic and church fathers that ALL of them expected a future return of Jesus Christ. It would be strange indeed if the entire church failed to understand the fulfillment of so many of the New Testament prophecies on such a major point. This is especially striking when we remember the promise of Revelation 1:7 that tells us, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. A preterist interpretation calls for this to be a reference to the "tribes of the land" of Israel, even though Israel was never described in such a way elsewhere in the Bible. But such an interpretation would demand that the Jews who suffered through the A.D. 70 event would have recognized that their sufferings were a punishment for their treatment of Jesus since the prophecy is not merely that they would mourn, but that they would mourn "over Him." Just as there is no evidence that anyone in the church ever recognized the fall of Jerusalem as the return of Jesus, so also there is a complete absence of evidence that the Jews ever recognized the coming of Jesus in those events.3. The Resurrection and Preterism.Fundamental to full Preterism is the idea that there is no future physical resurrection of the dead. But the pattern for our resurrection is that of Jesus. The big idea presented in 1 Corinthians 15 is that Jesus arose from the dead. This was not merely some sort of spiritual resurrection. The point is made throughout this chapter that His resurrection was bodily and physical. Furthermore we are told that His resurrection serves as the paradigm for our own resurrection. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20). He is the firstfruits and we are the "later fruits."When Paul came to Athens, he was mocked by the Greeks for believing in a physical resurrection. Such mockery would not have been forthcoming had he held that the resurrection was only going to be of a spiritual or mystical nature. But he went out of his way to side himself with the Pharisees who believed in a physical resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6-8).In denying any future resurrection at the coming of Christ, the preterist also finds himself out of accord with the words of Paul when he says, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51). The reference to sleep is used throughout this epistle as a euphemism for death (11:30; 15:6; 15:18; 15:20). While Paul says of the coming of the Lord that it will be a time when all do not die, the preterist is left with the rather obvious historic truth that everyone who lived in the first century did indeed die.When it comes to the resurrection, the Bible teaches that Jesus is our prototype. His resurrection is the forerunner and the pattern for our own resurrection. This point is made in 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul says that if there is no resurrection then even Jesus has not risen.The resurrection of Jesus was a physical resurrection. He was able to stand before His disciples in His resurrection body and say, "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." (Luke 24:39). 1 John 3:2 says that when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. Therefore we can conclude that our future resurrection will be of a physical AND spiritual nature.4. Preterism and the Lord's Supper.One wonders whether the Full Preterist is completely consistent in his views. After all, most Full Preterists continue to partake of the Lord's Supper in spite of the fact that Paul said that the eating and drinking serves to "proclaim the Lord's death UNTIL HE COMES" (1 Corinthians 11:26).5. Preterism and the Promise of a Soon Coming.Preterists like to point out that Jesus and the disciples stated that the kingdom was near and at hand. What they often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.An example of this is seen in Isaiah 13:6 where, speaking of a coming judgment against the city of Babylon, the prophet says, "Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty." Isaiah writes these words in the 8th century B.C. but it is not until 539 B.C. that Babylon fell to the Persians.The preterist attempts to make a similar case via the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." What is conveniently ignored is the earlier context of Jesus' words in the previous chapter."Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:34-36).Notice that it was "this generation" that murdered Zechariah, the son of Berechiah." The problem is that this murder took place 400 years earlier as recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21. This tells us that Matthew's use of the term "generation" means something different than a mere life span of the people who were living at that time.6. Preterism and the Angels at the Ascension.Another problem facing the preterist is seen in the promise that was given to the disciples at the ascension of Jesus. The event took place on the Mount of Olives.And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them; 11 and they also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11).The promise that was given by the angels is that Jesus would come again in exactly the same way as they had watched Him go into heaven. This had not been a spiritual ascension, but a physical and visible one. It is for this reason that Christians throughout the ages fully expect a future physical and visible return of Christ.7. Preterism and the Judgment of the World.When Paul preaches to the Athenians on the Areopagus, he declares to them that God has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed (Acts 17:31). The Preterist interpretation of this verse is that it points to the A.D. 70 fall of Jerusalem, yet that fall would have absolutely no impact upon the Athenians who had gathered to listen to Paul. He says that they ought to repent because of this coming judgment and such a warning is nonsensical if it only refers to a local judgment in a far away land.There are some eschatological differences that exist between Christians that I consider to be relatively benign and within the realm of Christian orthodoxy. This is not one of them. To the contrary, the teaching of Preterism comes uncomfortably close to the spiritual gangrene that is described by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:18 when he speaks of those who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. I have yet to meet a Preterist whose focus is upon church ministry or the spreading of the gospel or the building up of the church. To the contrary, those with whom I have thus far come into contact seem to have as their primary focus the spread of this particular teaching. I cannot help but to be reminded of the litmus test suggested by Jesus: You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit (Matthew 7:16-17).........
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I would ask every member to read this as we have this false doctrine in our mist. Judge for yourself
     
  3. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Unfortunately we have a little bugger on these forums. So beware, and do not follow his teachings. He's a bad fig [​IMG].
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The question is do we want this doctrine on our site? Do we partake in spreading this falsehoods? This is not like our disagreeing on scripture.This is a whole new Man Made religion that goes against Gods word and most all Christian religious teachings.2 Corinthians 6:14Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? Do we not follow the same words when we have doctrines that teach against Gods Word? That teach our Lord has already returned. 2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of somevote in the anomous pole above to keep this or ban it.
     
  5. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    I agree that this false teaching should be banned. :bible:
     
  6. Tama

    Tama New Member

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    YES, I think this doctrine should be banned from this site! We all disagree sometimes on little things we thingk, guess, or the way we understand them. But we all use same Bible to base out faith on. We all love God and are waiting for his 2nd coming! We all are still a family of Christ with maybe little different points of view on few things and that is ok. But this false doctrine is no-where near the truth, not based on His Word. (denying a lot of scriptures) So I think it the best it's banned for the sake of those who are weak in faith or unbelievers who might stumble on this false teachings...
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Obvious it makes me sick of false doctrines. Lies and more lies does not need to be part of this site. Ban this evil doctrine from this site. Away from us. I can't wait for the true second coming of Christ.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Nice to see Christ and Gods Word has so many warriors willing to stand on his side:) Just goes to show you for all our sibbling scabbles on scripture We are family, true brothers and sisters in the Lord. And when someone comes against our Father we will rise to the occasion. God Bless you all
     
  9. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Kriss)
    Nice to see Christ and Gods Word has so many warriors willing to stand on his side Just goes to show you for all our sibbling scabbles on scripture We are family, true brothers and sisters in the Lord. And when someone comes against our Father we will rise to the occasion. God Bless you all
    No kidding, it is a true blessing to serve God, Thank God for Lord Yahshua (Jesus) Christ.Galatians 1:10 - For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.God bless you all.
     
  10. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    I believe we have scarred him out. I do wish he would come back and realize his mistake.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Im not sure he has left but in any case Its not him we banned but his doctrine he can come here anytime he likes if he ever wants to know the truth and we like the Christians we are and should be will welcome him. Just not his doctrine of lies.So if you are still here please know this is not against you personally but against your doctrine we have taken a stand if you ever want to discuss The truth of Gods Word we welcome your input and questions. Just do not bring your false doctrine with you. What this means is you are welcome to fellowship here but from now on I will delete any posts that are the preaching of this doctrine.
     
  12. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Hello allSpeaking as one who has been banned from a lot of Christain forums (7)as of now,I don't feel that anyone should ever be banned for what they believe,so as long as their views are presented in a respectful manner.This person is very adamant in his beliefs and regardless of how we feel about said doctine he know doubt believes in his heart that what he is saying is the truth.So speaking for myself I don't feel that any biblical subject should ever be banned,I can debate with the best of them and can show my views scriptually and when all else fails I can agree to disagree,because no matter how right I know I am,this person feels the same way.What I believe and I think its in line with most of the members here, cannot be shaken,because I know that it was built on a solid foundation.I guess what Im trying to say is that,false doctrines do not bother me in the least
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are missing the point N2 this is not about a biblical disagreement It is about a False Religion, and we are told we are not to associate with darknesskinda like if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.The stregth of his belief is unimportant as Satanists are strong in their beliefsWith your way of thinking here should we allow wicka, new age god/goddess any doctrine anyone wants to push.their doctrinethis not a democratic web site that everyone gets their voice its a Christian web site. If someone wants practice false religions their are plenty of other places to do so.Your way of thinking may be fine for you as you are accustomed to aguments but we get many babes here that are trying to findtheir way to Christianity to call ourselfs a Christian website and allow False religions to be preached would be a lie and a diservice to them and God.
     
  14. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Hello ChrisI respectfully disagree,I don't feel that he is pushing a false religion, false doctrine,yes,based on a mis-interpretation of scripture,I have debated a lot of people who feel the same way as he does,and from their other post I can see that they do love the Lord,I just think they are confused,and I think its my responsibility to untangle the confusion,and after I feel Ive made my point based on scripture,I can agree to disagree and leave it up to my Father to open their eyes,as all I can do is plant the seed.I don't think you can compare this to a satanist,for although a santanist can come to Christ I don't think it wise to debate anything they would have to say,and no,I don't think you should allow the different groups that you mentioned,as it is clearly unbiblical,but I don't feel that what this person believes is as I said a false religion,rather a scriptual mis understanding,because looking at his arguments I can clearly see how he could come to that conclussion,he just dosent see the whole picture,in its proper perspective.And yes I know that this is a christian web site but it is my opinion that this person is indeed a Christian.For example as stated in my earlier post,I have been banned from numerous Christian web sites,now let me tell you for the most point why,as you know,me you as well as most of us here know what really happened in the Garden(satan having sex with Eve)we also know that their was a earth age before this present one which we are in now,in trying to get people (other Christains)to see this,as well as other Biblical things which we on this site know to be true, I have been accused of exactly the same thing as you are accusing this person of,so while yes I can debate with the best of them,I will not debate a fool,because that would be casting my pearls before swine,but like I said I don't think this person is pushing a false religion,only a false doctrine),who needs our help in seeing the truth.A fool is one who would say there is no God ,and thats where I draw the line.Anything else one wants to discuss based on what is written and its interpretation I have no problem with.As far as the babes who visit this site,I feel the truth always wins out,and of all the sites I have been on I can truely say the majority here knows the plan of God,as written from the beginning.In other words the babes who visit here are in very good hands,and they will see the truth.Please don't take this post as an argument,as you say I like to do(lol)I just feel like this person needs our help in understanding scripture.So no I don't think Im missing the point.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I respect your opinion N2 but you are only answerable to yourself and God of course I feel we have a bigger responability to many here and just as you would not expose your kids to certain things till they are old enough to understand them we have watch out for everyones best interest. God bless you on yourseed planting may God grant you sunshine and rain to follow you in your pathcarry on N2:)
     
  16. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (Wakka;12513)
    I believe we have scarred him out. I do wish he would come back and realize his mistake.
    Sorry to disappoint you, Wakka, but my computer had a bug and it's taken me awhile to get back online. You cannot scare off the truth.Would someone, apart from going to some website for some "wisdom," tell me where the false doctrine is in these words OF JESUS HIMSELF? No one answers me--they simply throw out that word "heretic!"JESUS said (not I)--"YOU (My disciples right here with me) will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man COMES!" (Mat. 10:23). What did JESUS say? Is this my heresy????? Is Jesus Himself the heretic?"There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28). These are JESUS' words--not mine! What did JESUS say???? Is Jesus the heretic?"THIS (not some other but THIS) generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34). Again, what did JESUS say--not me? JESUS said to that first-century Caiaphas, the high priest, who was standing right there with Him--"YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Mat.26:64). What did JESUS say? I didn't say these words? JESUS did. Is He the heretic since HE said that CAIAPHAS right there with HIM would see HIS COMING? The words are plain. Be careful whom you call a heretic lest you place that label on JESUS himself!JAMES said--"The COMING of the LORD is AT HAND" (James 5:8). These are not my words. These are the words of an inspired writer of Scripture. I take them at face value, yet all of you scream HERETIC and want to ban me. Why? I didn't say these words, and none of you will address them. You simply scream out hateful words and accusations without given a logical response! PETER said--"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). What did he mean? I didn't say these words, did I? But I take Peter at his word. He clearly said that the end of ALL things was THEN AT HAND. Yet I am a heretic because I take the words at face value. The very beginning of the book of the Revelation stipulates the time frame for the things that were to follow--"the things which must SHORTLY take place" (1:1). Did I say that? Am I the heretic? Notice that this is the revelation OF JESUS CHRIST which GOD gave HIM to show HIS servants the things which must SHORTLY take place! Who is your complaint really with? God the Father who gave Jesus the revelation and the time frame? JESUS? Again, these are NOT my words. What about the time constraint of Rev. 1:3--"the time is NEAR!" My words? No, the very words of Scriptures which I have chosen to take at face value. So I'm a heretic; I'M teaching false doctrine? WHAT DO THE WORDS SAY? Does anyone here care? Does anyone even want to engage me through their OWN study with their OWN words?Maybe you don't care--I don't know. I don't know your hearts. But let me share mine. Over forty years ago now, my Lord Jesus Christ saved me from a life of sin and turned my life around completely. I have a love and compassion for the veracity of His word as I'm sure you do also. Do you not think it hurts me deeply when my own brothers and sisters in Christ call me hateful names and question my salvation? Why? What have I done? I have given you the very words of the Scriptures above. Look at them again. Is it so unreasonable when you look at those verses that someone would come to the conclusion that Jesus came back THEN? Is it?How many of you can actually dispute with your own words what the Scriptures I have given you say? How many of you have even tried? Most of you have come back with websites to visit where we can all take without question the words of "scholars" who cast about the H word indiscrimnately toward anyone who doesn't agree with them.So you can take a vote and force me off the board (it's happened before and I'm sure it will happen again), but that won't make the verses I posted go away. Whether it is I who brings them up or someone else (even agnostics and skeptics and modern attackers of our faith), you must deal with them in an honest and rational manner for yourself. Do not be so quick to run to commentators to find one who will support some preconceived idea you may have. Look at the words. What did Jesus say? What did the inspired writer say? Is there not something within you that tugs at you and says when you read those verses above--Jesus seems to be saying He was coming back to them? All I wanted was to find others who wished to take a serious look at God's Word apart from our feelings, apart from what others have told us, and apart from what we want them to say. What DO they say?Again, if you would be honest, you would see that your problem is not with me but with the clear words of the Bible! Furthermore, I don't think most of you or even all of you really even understand the teachings of preterism. You read and accept what others say without seeking your own understanding.Be careful what you seek to ban--you just might be banning the truth!JesusReigns (NOW)
     
  17. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (kriss;12534)
    You are missing the point N2 this is not about a biblical disagreement It is about a False Religion, and we are told we are not to associate with darknesskinda like if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.The stregth of his belief is unimportant as Satanists are strong in their beliefsWith your way of thinking here should we allow wicka, new age god/goddess any doctrine anyone wants to push.their doctrinethis not a democratic web site that everyone gets their voice its a Christian web site. If someone wants practice false religions their are plenty of other places to do so.Your way of thinking may be fine for you as you are accustomed to aguments but we get many babes here that are trying to findtheir way to Christianity to call ourselfs a Christian website and allow False religions to be preached would be a lie and a diservice to them and God.
    Kriss: You have never made your case against the clear verses that I posted yet you accuse me of following a false religion. Who said the words I posted? Did I? No! Jesus Himself said them, yet you do not deal with them--you simply make unfounded accusations and call me names!Mat. 10:23; 16:28; 24:34; 26:64; James 5:8; 1 Peter 4:7; Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 12, 20--what did the writers and the speakers say (not me)--what did THEY say?JesusReigns(NOW)
     
  18. RND

    RND New Member

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    'Cuse me for interupting....(JesusReigns;12789)
    Mat. 10:23; 16:28; 24:34; 26:64; James 5:8; 1 Peter 4:7; Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 12, 20--what did the writers and the speakers say (not me)--what did THEY say?
    He said the Kingdom of God is within in you!Luke 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.He said the Kingdom of God comes without observation.Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:He said we must occupy until the Kingdom of God comes to the whole earth.Luke 19:11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. (See the Parable of the Ten Pounds Luke 19:12-27)God personally calls each one to His Kingdom.1 Thessalonians 2:12That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
     
  19. RND

    RND New Member

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    While I'm neither a preterist nor a futurist I don't believe that banning any type of speech regarding the Bible and Bible prophecy is wise.If we ban anything regarding Christian speech, we lose a valuable tool in understanding what our fellow brethren think and believe, and even more so, we lose an opportunity to convert those that believe in obviously false doctrine.Instead of scoffing at the Greeks and their 'unknown god' Paul used reason and logic to convert those with a willing heart to hear truth about the one true Creator God and His Son Jesus Christ. We must have the patience to do the same regarding false doctrine.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Jsusreigns is not banned we just will not allow this site do become like the rest on the internet where you can teach/say anything we have always made an attept to keep this site different and not turn in one argument after the next on every doctrine/religion under the sun. The founders of this site are Bible students meaning we will always defer to the bible as final authority. All religions are welcome here but as I have warned even you RND about your religion. To put it so all understand This is a Bible based site to get to the truth of what scriptrure says NOT What Men say. You are all welcome to learn to ask questions, to share . When anyone startspushing a certain doctrine of any religion/denomination rather it be SDA, Baptist, Pererist, Catholic, Morman,or any other denomination. I will first warn you and then start deleting it. If this is a problem for you there are a thousand sites out there you can choose from to argue your belief I will repeat THIS IS A BIBLE BASED SITE NOT A RELIGIOUS /DENOMINATIONAL SITE. ALL DOCTRINES UNDER THE SUN ARE NOT WELCOMEall Bible dicusscions are welcome but not in referance to your religious denomination. We will not turn this into a what religion is the right religon site.
     
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