Was Mary Magdalene the sister of Lazarus?

[Grailhunter]

I do want and we will. But, regarding this thread's topic of discussion, in my last post I was just expressing disagreement, and respect for your decision to bow out of it.

That is ok.

 

[Sabé]

That is ok.

Good, though I never thought you wouldn't be okay with me expressing disagreement and respect for your decision to bow out of it.

 

[Sabé]

Mary the sister of Lazarus lived in Bethany.
It was Mary from Magdala who was subsequently named 'Mary Magdalene'......Magdalene being a derivative of Magdala. We can deduct from this that she was not Lazarus's sister.

Not necessarily. Assuming that your sole source for knowledge and validation is Scripture, can you cite any scriptural verses that rule out as possibilities any or all of the following:

• Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, only ever resided in Bethany.
• Mary the Magdalene only ever resided in Magdala.
• Mary the Magdalene still lived in Magdala, but came to temporarily live with her brother, Lazarus, in Bethany while he was sick and dying to help care for him
• Mary the Magdalene came to permanently live in Bethany in her brother Lazarus's house, but continued to go, or be known by her toponymic (or locative) surname "the Magdalene" or "of Magdala". Jesus would be a similar example of this. Although born in Bethlehem, He lived most of His early life in the town of Nazareth, which is why He was frequently called "Jesus of Nazareth". Likewise with Paul, who was born in the city of Tarsus, a Roman citizen by birth. He was referred to as Saul of Tarsus before and after his conversion.

If you can, then you can reasonably say that these two Marys weren't the same person.

Additionally, do believe the unnamed well-known woman, a great sinner, who repented in Simon the Pharisee's house, and Lazarus's and Martha's sister, Mary, in Lazarus's house in Bethany, both of whom made the same gesture of anointing Jesus with ointment and wiping His feet with their hair, were the same person?

 

[quietthinker]

If you were able to rule out as possibilities that Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, never also resided in Magdala at any point, or that Mary the Magdalene never also resided in Bethany at any point, or that Mary still had her house in Magdala, but went to live with her brother, Lazarus, in Bethany while he was sick and dying to help care for him, then you would have more reason to deduce that these two Mary's weren't the same person. Can you cite any scriptural verses that can do this, assuming that your sole source for knowledge and validation is Scripture, that is?

Additionally, do you believe that Lazarus's and Martha's sister, Mary, and the well-known woman and repentant sinner, both of whom, in Bethany, made the gesture of anointing Jesus with expensive ointment and wiping His feet with their hair, were the same person?

The scripture identifies individuals by the relationships they held, (father, son, daughter, sibling) their professions or behaviour they engaged or the locations they were identified with. For example, we are told that Mary, Martha and Lazarus lived in Bethany (John 11:1-3 John 12:1-3) It appears the dinner given in Jesus honour was at the house of a Pharisee named Simon also in Bethany and the three siblings along with the disciples were there. Here Mary anointed Jesus with perfume (Luke 7:36-38)

The Mary to which 'Magdalene' is attached, identifies Magdala. She is the Mary from whom seven devils were cast (Luke 8:2)
I think these two Marys mentioned were different individuals.

 

[Sabé]

The scripture identifies individuals by the relationships they held, (father, son, daughter, sibling) their professions or behaviour they engaged or the locations they were identified with. For example, we are told that Mary, Martha and Lazarus lived in Bethany (John 11:1-3 John 12:1-3) It appears the dinner given in Jesus honour was at the house of a Pharisee named Simon also in Bethany and the three siblings along with the disciples were there. Here Mary anointed Jesus with perfume (Luke 7:36-38)

Are you saying that you do believe the unnamed well-known woman, a great sinner, who repented in Simon the Pharisee's house, and Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, in Lazarus's house in Bethany, both of whom made the same gesture of anointing Jesus with ointment and wiped His feet with their hair, were the same person?

Mary the sister of Lazarus lived in Bethany.
It was Mary from Magdala who was subsequently named 'Mary Magdalene'......Magdalene being a derivative of Magdala. We can deduct from this that she was not Lazarus's sister.

Not necessarily. Assuming that your sole source for knowledge and validation is Scripture, can you cite any scriptural verses that rule out as possibilities any or all of the following:

• Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, only ever resided in Bethany.
• Mary the Magdalene only ever resided in Magdala.
• Mary the Magdalene still lived in Magdala, but came to temporarily live with her brother, Lazarus, in Bethany while he was sick and dying to help care for him
• Mary the Magdalene came to permanently live in Bethany in her brother Lazarus's house, but continued to go, or be known by her toponymic (or locative) surname "the Magdalene" or "of Magdala". Jesus would be a similar example of this. Although born in Bethlehem, He lived most of His early life in the town of Nazareth, which is why He was frequently called "Jesus of Nazareth". Likewise with Paul, who was born in the city of Tarsus, a Roman citizen by birth. He was referred to as Saul of Tarsus before and after his conversion.

If you can, then you can reasonably say that these two Marys weren't the same person.

 

[quietthinker]

Are you saying that you do believe the unnamed well-known woman, a great sinner, who repented in Simon the Pharisee's house in Bethany, and Lazarus's and Martha's sister, Mary, in Lazarus's house in Bethany, both of whom made the same gesture of anointing Jesus with expensive ointment and wiping His feet with their hair, were the same person?



Not necessarily. Assuming that your sole source for knowledge and validation is Scripture, can you cite any scriptural verses that rule out as possibilities any or all of the following:

• Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, only ever resided in Bethany.
• Mary the Magdalene only ever resided in Magdala.
• Mary the Magdalene still lived in Magdala, but came to temporarily live with her brother, Lazarus, in Bethany while he was sick and dying to help care for him
• Mary the Magdalene came to permanently live in Bethany in her brother Lazarus's house, but continued to go, or be known by her toponymic (or locative) surname "the Magdalene" or "of Magdala". Jesus would be a similar example of this. Although born in Bethlehem, He lived most of His early life in the town of Nazareth, which is why He was frequently called "Jesus of Nazareth". Likewise with Paul, who was born in the city of Tarsus, a Roman citizen by birth. He was referred to as Saul of Tarsus before and after his conversion.

If you can, then you can reasonably say that these two Marys weren't the same person.

We can rattle on for some time about this but I don't think it's productive. It is possible to make mountains out of mole hills which I think this is. I would rather ensure that mole hills are not made into mountains.

 

[Sabé]

We can rattle on for some time about this but I don't think it's productive. It is possible to make mountains out of mole hills which I think this is. I would rather ensure that mole hills are not made into mountains.

You made the deduction that Mary the Magdalene was not Mary of Bethany, because they have different toponymic (or locative) surnames, and I presented several plausible scenarios to account for why they could still be the same person. For you to say that it would be unproductive, and you'd be overreacting if you ruled out any or all of those as possibilities—which, if accomplished, would actually substantiate your case—is a poor excuse for masking your inability to perform.

 

[quietthinker]

You made the deduction that Mary the Magdalene was not Mary of Bethany, because they have different toponymic (or locative) surnames, but I presented several plausible scenarios to account for why they could still be the same person. For you to say that it would be unproductive and over-reactive of you to rule out any or all of those as possibilities—which, if accomplished, would actually substantiate your case—is a poor excuse for masking your inability to perform.

As you wish.
Personally, I do not consider your conclusion to be accurate.
The Gospel is not the message or intent of out-manoeuvring by debate.....and refusal to be drawn on what I think are irrelevant technicalities does not constitute inability to perform.

 

[Sabé]

As you wish.
Personally, I do not consider your conclusion to be accurate.
The Gospel is not the message or intent of out-manoeuvring by debate.....and refusal to be drawn on what I think are irrelevant technicalities does not constitute inability to perform.

In response to your new poor excuses, I refer you back to post #67.

 

[quietthinker]

In response to your new poor excuses, I refer you back to post #67.

I understand your preference to debate....even that which I consider of no consequence.
There are bigger fish to fry. I guess it's a question of recognising what constitutes bigger fish.
What would you say qualifies for bigger fish?

 

[Sabé]

I understand your preference to debate....even that which I consider of no consequence.
There are bigger fish to fry.

In response to your new poor excuses, I refer you back to post #67.

 

[quietthinker]

In response to your new poor excuses, I refer you back to post #67.

I see you qualify yourself for the inability to hear. So be it!

 

[Sabé]

I see you qualify yourself for the inability to hear. So be it!

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter, I'm not seeking a response from you, since you bowed out of this discussion, but I wanted to share with you and others that the other night, the Holy Spirit drew my attention to—Ha! He is so good!—how the apostle John identified Mary of Bethany, and the repentant woman in Bethany, as being the same person! So read on.

In ch. 11:1-2, John introduced Lazarus, Martha, and Mary as siblings, as well as identified Mary as having been "that Mary who had anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair" at a point when "Lazarus was alive and sick". In ch. 12:1-8, he recounted Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, in Lazarus's house in Bethany, anointed Jesus with expensive ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, but at a point after "Lazarus had died and was resurrected". These verses show that Mary made the same gesture to Jesus on two separate occasions: [1] when Lazarus was alive and sick and [2] after Lazarus had died and was resurrected.

Therefore, the scene of Mary's gesture being made to Jesus at a point when Lazarus was alive and sick could've only taken place in Simon the Pharisee's house in Bethany, thus making her the well-known woman, who repented to and anointed Jesus with expensive ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, as recounted by Luke in (7:36-50)! [1] The scene of her repeating this gesture at a point after Lazarus had died and resurrected is recounted by Matthew (26:6-13), Mark (14:3-9), and John 12:1-8. [2]

To recap, Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary, a woman well-known among the people for her many sins (Lk. 7:39;47), in a state of great remorse (Lk. 7:38), ran towards Forgiveness and Love with trust, anointing Jesus and wiping His feet with her hair, and she was forgiven because she showed "much love" (Lk. 7:47). Then, later, she repeated the same gesture in her brother Lazarus's house (Matt. 26:6-13, Mk. 14:3-9, Jn. 12:1-8). There are personal gestures, which are repeated and are peculiar to a person, like the person’s style. They are unmistakable gestures. But, as it was fair, at Bethany in Lazarus's house the gesture was not humiliated so much as it was in Simon the Pharisee's house in Bethany, and it was more confidential in its reverent adoration. The gesture made in Lazarus's house marked the dawn of her redemption.

Now I'm going to speak to those who currently mistakenly believe that Mary of Magdala and Mary of Bethany were not the same person. Bearing in mind what you just read about the latter, remember that seven demons were cast out from the former (Lk. 8:1-2), indicating that she would've been a well-known and great sinner as well. Do you consider it impossible that these women were the same person? Do you consider it impossible, if these Marys were the same person, that she was a well-known prostitute, and thus the disgrace of her family, which is why she lived apart from them for a time in Magdala? Do you consider it impossible, if these Marys were the same person, that Mary's conversion was a process, rather than an event? Do you consider it impossible, if these Marys were the same person, that the gesture made in Lazarus's house marked the dawn of her redemption? Do you consider it impossible that one of the most beautiful conquests of God was Mary the Magdalene, a great sinner, a great convert, and a great disciple?

Mary of Magdala/Bethany

• Casting out of Seven Demons (Lk. 8:1-2)
• First Anointing of the Living Body (Lk. 7:36-50)
• Sitting at Jesus's Feet (Lk. 10:38-42)
• Death and Resurrection of Lazarus (Jn. 11:1-45)
• Last Anointing of the Living Body (Matt. 26:6-13, Mk. 14:3-9, Jn. 12:1-8)
• Financially supported Jesus's ministry (Lk. 8:2-3)
• Witness to the Crucifixion (Matt. 27:55-56, Mk. 15:40-41, Jn. 19:25)
• Witness to the Burial (Matt. 27:59-61, Mk. 15:46-47)
• Anointing and Arrival at the Tomb (Matt. 28:1, Mk. 16:1, Lk. 24:1, Jn. 20:1)
• First Witness of Resurrection (or second if you believe that His Mother was), and
• Proclaimed Jesus's Resurrection (Mk. 16:9-11, Jn. 20:14-18)

Food for thought.

Here is the deal….If the scriptures ever identified Mary Magdalene as the repentant prostitute professional theologians would know it. And so that you know I am a professional theologian. Actually schooled for most of life in theology and history in 5 countries.

Mary Magdalene was very close to Christ and His friends and the Bible attests to her moral character and importance.

The question is….Why is it so important to you that she was the repentant prostitute?

I see it all the time….People do not go to the Bible for it to teach them, they go to Bible to find scriptures that support what they believe.

Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute in the Bible?

One significant source of this confusion arises from the story of a sinful woman who anoints Jesus' feet with perfume in the Gospel of Luke (7:36-50). Although this woman is not named and is depicted as a sinner, many early Christian leaders conflated her with Mary Magdalene.

www.bibleanalysis.org

Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, scholars say. This is what she really was

'Reanalysing that reputation that she had we can see she was probably a woman of greater social status, higher social status, a woman of wealth who accompanied Jesus'

www.independent.co.uk

Biblical Myth Debunked? 'Mary Magdalene Was Not a Prostitute'

Who really is Mary Magdalene One of the most important yet maligned biblical figures was the featured subject in a radio program over Easter weekend, with a columnist from the Washington Post

www.christianpost.com

http://

 

[Grailhunter]

The deal is that you believe Mary of Bethany and Mary of Magdala are the same person—and rightly so—and I just showed you by citing Scripture how the apostle John identified Mary of Bethany/Magdala as being the repentant prostitute. And, now you know that she was prior to her conversion.

No one of any real knowledge level of Mary Magdalene believes she was a prostitute.

 

[Grailhunter]

In post #74, I've shown by citing Scripture how the apostle John identified Mary of Bethany—whom, again, you believe was Mary of Magdala—as being the repentant prostitute.

I do not believe that Mary Magdalene was the repentant prostitute or that she was from Magdala.
No indication in the scriptures of Mary Magdalene doing anything immoral.
The Mary at Lazarus house in Bethany was Mary Magdalene.
Mary Magdalene and Martha were sisters and Lazarus was their brother.

Luke 10:38-42
38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” 41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

 

[Sabé]

I do not believe that Mary Magdalene was the repentant prostitute

So, you're choosing to no longer believe that Mary of Bethany and Mary the Magdalene were the same person?

 

[Grailhunter]

So, you're choosing to no longer believe that Mary of Bethany and Mary the Magdalene were the same person, right after being shown in post #74 that the apostle John identified Mary of Bethany as the repentant prostitute?

Post 79
I already said that Mary Magdalene was the Mary at Lazarus’ house in Bethany.

But she was not the repentant prostitute at the Pharisee’s house.

This is one of the reasons that I don't want to talk to you about this because you keep trying to twist things around.

 

[JohnDB]

For those who don't want to see the lecture video:
This is Elizabeth Schrader. A theologian specialized on comparing old manuscripts of the Bible.
Here she focuses on Papyrus 66 a "correction" of the Gospel of John, where Maria was corrected to Martha by overwriting the i with a theta.
This led to confusion, theologically and ultimately in the final version we know today it's Mary and Martha.

So we know the church slandered Mary Magdalene a lot, calling her a whore without biblical basis. Her being Lazarus brother makes sense theologically. She was the first to see Jesus beat death and is the first Jesus showed himself to after ressurecton.

Did the church erase her for being a female apostle?

Meh....
I doubt it.
She wasn't named Mary of Bethany
Her name was Mary of Magdela. (City name)
There were three different Mary's.

Naming conventions from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English have been completely trashed. There is zero standardization whatsoever anymore.
Some have been transliterated and others translated twice over before transliterated into English.

Eve's name was never "Eve". It was "Hawwa" which is Hebrew for "Mother of all living".
Eve is her Latin translated name.

Mary of Magdela could have had any number of reasons for being so available. A widow, a put away wife, or an old maid never married before she got too old to get married. Possibly even an orphan slave gifted to one of the Apostles for their service. (Not unheard of either)

In Jewish terms she was a prostitute instead of maid or virgin as we might think today.

The things we do know for certain is that she was from Magdela and her name was Mary....most importantly she loved Jesus hard.

 

[Grailhunter]

Meh....
I doubt it.
She wasn't named Mary of Bethany
Her name was Mary of Magdela. (City name)
There were three different Mary's.

Naming conventions from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English have been completely trashed. There is zero standardization whatsoever anymore.
Some have been transliterated and others translated twice over before transliterated into English.

Eve's name was never "Eve". It was "Hawwa" which is Hebrew for "Mother of all living".
Eve is her Latin translated name.

Mary of Magdela could have had any number of reasons for being so available. A widow, a put away wife, or an old maid never married before she got too old to get married. Possibly even an orphan slave gifted to one of the Apostles for their service. (Not unheard of either)

In Jewish terms she was a prostitute instead of maid or virgin as we might think today.

The things we do know for certain is that she was from Magdela and her name was Mary....most importantly she loved Jesus hard.

Some people think that Magdalene means Magdela and some believe that Magdalene means female from the Magi, but both are speculations because the scriptures do not indicate either one.