Watching and Growing

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with this in the sense that we can work on our character, and our discipline, to control our behavior.

Again I feel the need to emphasize the future aspect of the new birth. God said through Ezekiel, "I shall", something He would do at a future time, coupled with the return of Israel to their land.

God did the same with Jeremiah, promising this new covenant when their hearts will be changed, to Ezekiel, a priest and prophet, and Jeremiah, a prophet.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "the time is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship God in spirit, and in truth".

Something new. Better promises by which we don't just control the flesh, but transcend the flesh.

They could become condemned even after doing righteousness, if they abandoned that righteousness and returned to doing wickedly. Why? How? We cannot. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. The did not become His children, and we have. Better promises.

Much love!

Yes, that's true. In Christ what we do is fully justified, and has legal access to eternal life. All the righteousness in the world, in the OT era, was insufficient to guarantee anything with respect to eternal life.

I don't think the spiritual battle has changed, however, from OT to NT. The only thing that has changed is the guarantee, which came because of Christ's atonement for our sins. When we apply the record of his work, whatever we have done, by the Spirit, is fully justified.

 

[marks]

Yes, that's true. In Christ what we do is fully justified, and has legal access to eternal life. All the righteousness in the world, in the OT era, was insufficient to guarantee anything with respect to eternal life.

I don't think the spiritual battle has changed, however, from OT to NT. The only thing that has changed is the guarantee, which came because of Christ's atonement for our sins. When we apply the record of his work, whatever we have done, by the Spirit, is fully justified.

I think there is more than that. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, while the OT faithful had no such guarantee.

He who began a good work in us apparently did not begin that same work in them, as their righteousness could become forgotten, and they could still die in their sins. To us He promised to complete that work in us all the way to the end. And there are so many more places we are assured of this truth. It is God who works in you both to will and to do what pleases Him. Christ is made unto us sanctification.

I'd point out that in the OT meaning of atonement, this is to cover. Sins are not removed. Behold! The Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. It's gone.

In the KJV, much as I love it, in Romans, where it says, we have received the atonement, the word that's actually used there is that we have received the reconciliation.

Their sins were covered, but we are reconciled. Sins are removed.

Philippians 3:5-11 KJV
5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think there is more than that. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, while the OT faithful had no such guarantee.

He who began a good work in us apparently did not begin that same work in them, as their righteousness could become forgotten, and they could still die in their sins. To us He promised to complete that work in us all the way to the end. And there are so many more places we are assured of this truth. It is God who works in you both to will and to do what pleases Him. Christ is made unto us sanctification.

I'd point out that in the OT meaning of atonement, this is to cover. Sins are not removed. Behold! The Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. It's gone.

Predestination begins before the foundation of the world. God had in mind a set number of people to be His own. But "who planted these in His vineyard?" It's an "enemy" who has done that, along with willing associates.

So those God has predestined were predestined in the OT, as well, and not just in the NT era. Justification came only in the NT, through Christ. But this does not mean people were unable to prepare themselves to receive that justification, when it came.

OT saints were just as secure in their hope of atonement as Christians today are secure in the knowledge that their sins have been atoned for. The only difference is that one group existed before the atonement, and the other group exists after the atonement. Both groups can be assured of their future salvation. Only Christians can know what it is like to have had your sins already atoned for.

But righteousness has the same spiritual quality in the OT as in the NT era. The only difference is that righteousness under the Law was required to be presented together with all of the Law's demands, to show that final atonement remained in the future. Now that Christ has already atoned for our sins, we need no Law to show that atonement has not yet been done--it has, indeed, been already accomplished.

 

[marks]

This was a verse we came across in our morning reading . . .

Colossians 1:26-27 KJV
26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A mystery . . . no one knew until now, as this must be spiritually revealed. Hidden, but now made manifest,

Christ in you, the hope (certainty in faith) of glory.

We have better promises, a better salvation.

Something else that crosses my mind . . . the second-most important Law, love others as you do your self, is a much lower Law than ours, Love as I have loved you. Their bar was much lower, and their salvation did not make them perfect. Not so for us, but our bar is much higher, reflecting the greatness of our salvation.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This was a verse we came across in our morning reading . . .

Colossians 1:26-27 KJV
26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A mystery . . . no one knew until now, as this must be spiritually revealed. Hidden, but now made manifest,

Christ in you, the hope (certainty in faith) of glory.

We have better promises, a better salvation.

Something else that crosses my mind . . . the second-most important Law, love others as you do your self, is a much lower Law than ours, Love as I have loved you. Their bar was much lower, and their salvation did not make them perfect. Not so for us, but our bar is much higher, reflecting the greatness of our salvation.

Much love!

I agree. Pure Salvation, without any need for further atonement of sin, was not known in the OT era. It was a mystery, inasmuch as sin always exists with man, making it incomprehensible that we should be fully accepted of God in this condition. Thanks.

 

[marks]

I agree. Pure Salvation, without any need for further atonement of sin, was not known in the OT era. It was a mystery, inasmuch as sin always exists with man, making it incomprehensible that we should be fully accepted of God in this condition. Thanks.

And so our condition is changed, we are made a new man, with a new heart.

Much love!

 

[Netchaplain]

But I don't believe that OT saints lacked the ability to be holy, to walk in righteousness, to fight spiritual warfare. So I'm a little confused by what you meant when you said that the OT saints had "no new nature?"

Romans 8:3: "For what the law could not do" (regenerate via implanting in the soul a nature after "Christ's image" (Col 3:10).

"it was weak through the flesh (not of the body "flesh," but the old nature of the soul "flesh")." Though desire for the Lord was known, and forgiveness was had (secured in God), the old man's dominion was still present, requiring the offset of the new man, which puts self (Ro 8:9) now in desiring and doing His good pleasure--not from a natural, carnal soul but, but from a spiritual, new soul!

Though our old self yet causes us to unpresumptuously sin (Num 15:30; Heb 10:26), our new self always desires God's pleasure and not old self's pleasure.



Strong's G4561 – sarx
IV. The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.
G4561 - sarx - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 8:3: "For what the law could not do" (regenerate via implanting in the soul a nature after "Christ's image" (Col 3:10).

"it was weak through the flesh (not of the body "flesh," but the old nature of the soul "flesh")." Though desire for the Lord was known, and forgiveness was had (secured in God), the old man's dominion was still present, requiring the offset of the new man, which puts self (Ro 8:9) now in desiring and doing His good pleasure--not from a natural, carnal soul but, but from a spiritual, new soul!

Though our old self yet causes us to unpresumptuously sin (Num 15:30; Heb 10:26), our new self always desires God's pleasure and not old self's pleasure.

We are as tainted with the Sin Nature today, as Christians, as the OT saints were. John the Baptist, Daniel, and Elijah were as afflicted by their carnal nature as we are today!

What Paul is talking about is *legal.* Christ legally removed the guilt associated with our Sin Nature so that when we prefer the spiritual life of Christ over our flesh, our guilt is removed and our righteousness remains. This doesn't mean we are any better off with respect to removing the Sin Nature from our lives. Only the legal condemnation from it is gone.

 

[Netchaplain]

We are as tainted with the Sin Nature today, as Christians, as the OT saints were. John the Baptist, Daniel, and Elijah were as afflicted by their carnal nature as we are today!

What Paul is talking about is *legal.* Christ legally removed the guilt associated with our Sin Nature so that when we prefer the spiritual life of Christ over our flesh, our guilt is removed and our righteousness remains. This doesn't mean we are any better off with respect to removing the Sin Nature from our lives. Only the legal condemnation from it is gone.

Good looking comment, and I partly agree. True, the sin nature cannot be removed in this life, but the new nature increases and ensures the desire for God's pleasure, which is what the goal of Christ's Cross-work--a guaranty of remaining in Him; and this is where many within Protestantism still misunderstand rebirth.

The OT believers were not under condemnation either but forgiven as we are. The difference is understanding the power of the new nature, a deeper understanding of God's mind through increased Biblical revelation of knowledge, bringing a newness of fellowship with Him, His Son and all believers. It was not given to Israel to be children of God until Jesus. They were then a people of God instead of children of God. It's just a drawing closer to God according to His sacrificial provision of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Good looking comment, and I partly agree. True, the sin nature cannot be removed in this life, but the new nature increases and ensures the desire for God's pleasure, which is what the goal of Christ's Cross-work--a guaranty of remaining in Him; and this is where many within Protestantism still misunderstand rebirth.

The OT believers were not under condemnation either but forgiven as we are. The difference is understanding the power of the new nature, a deeper understanding of God's mind through increased Biblical revelation of knowledge, bringing a newness of fellowship with Him, His Son and all believers. It was not given to Israel to be children of God until Jesus. They were then a people of God instead of children of God. It's just a drawing closer to God according to His sacrificial provision of the Lord Jesus.

I also only partly agree. It's true that we have a greater knowledge, since Christ has come and has introduced a new system based on the fact we already possess eternal life. But we don't have any greater spirituality is my point. It's just a completed spirituality, granting us eternal life instead of strictly the hope of eternal life.

I'm not going to try to match up with the spirituality of Enoch, Noah, David, Elijah, or John the Baptist. We are all one in Christ. Their spirituality was as deep as ours, although they did not yet possess the knowledge that they already have eternal life and can live in a system free of the encumbrances of pursuing life and not attaining it completely.

That is what the Law did--it attached many requirements to Israel's pursuit of righteousness in the search for a lasting righteousness that could not be obtained under that system. But we are not under any such system any more, since righteousness has now been achieved, through Christ, lasting duration.

I don't believe the "new nature increases and ensures the desire for God's pleasure." All of the great OT saints of old possessed the exact same zeal for God, and had the same level of spirituality and maturity as we can have now. As I said, they just didn't yet possess eternal life, and the knowledge of a righteousness that could last forever.

That could only come after Christ had come, and had delivered it to us through the process of atonement, ie dying for sin. They just didn't possess eternal life *legally.* They couldn't have that knowledge until it actually took place on the cross.

It didn't detract one bit from their spiritual virtue. It just kept them waiting for a complete picture. They were not just "people of God, and not children of God." They were both! They just didn't have full assurance yet.

It's no different today except that I would agree with you--we were not fully adopted children of God until Christ had made complete atonement for our sin. How could we be fully assured as God's children if any remnant of guilt for sin remained? The least amount of sin would keep us out of heaven!

But now that Christ has completed final atonement for his people, we can all be assured that we are children of God, and not merely hoped-to-be children of God. I believe the OT saints were children of God without legal papers that had finished going through the court of heaven. Now that those papers have been fully processed and delivered to us, we can claim not just to be children of God, but also *saved* children of God. :)

 

[Netchaplain]

I also only partly agree. It's true that we have a greater knowledge, since Christ has come and has introduced a new system based on the fact we already possess eternal life. But we don't have any greater spirituality is my point.

I suppose my point is that as God reveals more of His mind via the the new covenant, it stands to reason that the more those who are His can draw closer to Him in understanding His desires concerning our eternal relationship with Him.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I suppose my point is that as God reveals more of His mind via the the new covenant, it stands to reason that the more those who are His can draw closer to Him in understanding His desires concerning our eternal relationship with Him.

Yea, I'm actually happy to be on this side of the Cross! ;)
Thanks!

 

[Netchaplain]

Yea, I'm actually happy to be on this side of the Cross! ;)
Thanks!

Thankful for our manner of communicating! God bless!!