WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Davy]

Face palm. Okay. I will take that you still do not understand it spiritual discerned. You need to stop reading too much Jerusalem Post for interpretation.

You don't have a clue... of what I'm talking about regarding that Joel 3 Chapter because YOU don't understand what it is about! You are only following a doctrine of men you got from some preacher somewhere who is trying to place Joel 3 in the PAST, when it has NOT happened yet. And VAIN ATTEMPTS to claim there is a SPIRITUAL MESSAGE behind it is just the FALSE JEW'S method they use all the time when they want to CHANGE the actual meaning in Bible Scripture! You are a danger to yourself and to other believers on Jesus Christ, because of who you listen to and believe, which is not God's Word.

 

[rwb]

When you tried to put the Joel 3:15-16 Scripture in the sense as already having happened, per your post #139. Don't remember your own statements?

You said:

"There are the Day of the Lord for each of His congregation, whether Israel of Old or the Church of New, depending on the context. For example:​

​

Joel 3:15-16​

​

• "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
• The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

The end result was that the Lord cleansed the blood of people that He had not cleansed (Gentiles), and the New Testament church was established. The stars didn't literally/physically withdraw their shining or fall from the heavens; this all indicated the darkness in apostasy that was in Old Testament congregation as the messengers of God fell away from Him, and their Kingdom representative was taken (Matthew 21:42-43) from them. It is God's definition of signs, not the false teachers' definition."​

​

​

That is your treating the "day of the Lord" in Joel 3 in a past... context, when it has not happened yet. Or maybe you haven't read Joel 3 far enough to actually understand what timing it will be...

You guys keep forcing me to post whole groups of Bible Scripture as if you've never seen it!

Joel 3:2-21
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with Me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render Me a recompence? and if ye recompence Me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into your temples My goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
KJV

All those above passages in 'red' are for the STILL FUTURE 2ND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. That is covering the symbolic harvest time of Revelation 19 about Jesus' future coming with His army from heaven. That "valley of Jehoshaphat" is about the battle of Armageddon when the nations will come up against Jerusalem surrounding it, on the LAST DAY of this present world. And that is when Jesus will appear with HIS ARMY from Heaven.

The that idea of The LORD dwelling in Zion is about Christ's having 'literally' returned to this earth, and begins His "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 with His elect Church. That 18th verse even speaks of the return of God's River of the waters of life at Jerusalem, which is NOT for this present world, but only when Jesus returns to earth. That is what that fountain is that shall come forth of the house of the LORD. It is shown in detail in Ezekiel 47 with the Millennial sanctuary, God's house, THE house which Jesus said there are "many mansions" within per John 14.

Thus WHO... would want us to think that Joel 3:15-16 Scripture was PAST HISTORY? That Joel 3 Chapter is about Judah's deliverance. So who did YOU get that doctrine from with thinking that Joel 3 Chapter has ALREADY HAPPENED associated with Christ's 1st coming??? It has not yet happened, the orthodox Jews today in Jerusalem HAVE NOT YET been delivered by God. As a matter fact, per New Testament prophecy about the END by The LORD, given through His prophet Daniel, and by Lord Jesus and His Apostles per The New Testament, Judah in today's nation state of Israel will be directly under one of the greatest moments of deception by the devil that this world has ever known, with the "great tribulation". So no, Judah has NOT been delivered yet, far from it. But WHO would want us to think their return in 1948 to create the nation state of Israel again is... about their deliverance? The FALSE JEWS of the "synagogue of Satan" are behind that, that's who. They don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ; they had Him crucified, and if He were to return like His 1st coming again today, they would crucify HIm today again, because they are NOT of God, for He is not their father, like Jesus said to them in John 8.

But it's probably that you don't have a clue about all that, because you obviously have not properly interpreted that Joel 3 Chapter as a whole, (or maybe you do understand and you're just being coy here).

The day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come is past, present and future! The prophets of Old continually link these "last days" and the "day of the Lord" as synonymous during the time when the promised Messiah would come.

 

[Davy]

Nah.

Oh but I do... know Jesus' parable to the ten virgins well. So why are you bearing false witness against me about that when you haven't even heard me cover it? Do you always judge people's testimony BEFORE you've heard it?

Humm... and?

"Humm...and?" NOTHING! If you knew those New Testament Scriptures I mentioned then you should have understood the proper timing of the events in the Joel 3 Chapter your doctrines of men tried to change.

Tell that at the feet of the Lord on Judgment Day and see if He agrees with you.

I don't have to wait and tell Lord Jesus that this present world is not His Kingdom Come, for HE is WHO told His Church!

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

Oh, but we now find out that YOU don't really listen to Lord Jesus Christ in His Word. Otherwise you would have recognized the above where He directly... showed that His Kingdom is not of THIS WORLD, and is still yet to come. Do you even say the prayer of Luke 11 that Jesus gave His Church to pray, that says,

Luke 11:2
Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
KJV

It's not that difficult for those Biblically studied to know the false doctrines where you are coming from. Anyone can create their own 'spiritual sideshow' about Christ's Kingdom and claim it has already come just to attract a lot of money in ponzi schemes. Prosperity ministries are plentiful, and God did not send them.

That is right. The kingdom of Heaven is God's congregation on Earth. Not the world itself.

Your head is so full baloney by the Kingdom NOW liars that you can't even understand what you read. My statement regarding what Jesus' parable of the ten virgins is about is in regards to His FUTURE 2ND COMING, not today's congregations representing Christ's literal physical Kingdom to Come at His 2nd coming.

What I want to see when Lord Jesus returns, is what He will say to YOU, because you reject His still FUTURE KINGDOM to Come at His future 2nd coming. He will probably ask you why you didn't believe Him in John 18:36 when He showed that 'this world' is NOT His Kingdom, otherwise His servants would have prevented His crucifixion.

Of course... That is what I was saying. The question is, do you even understand who the ten virgins are?

Oh, so now you want to open up for yourself an opportunity to give YOUR own explanation of Christ's ten virgins parable? Yeah, I know who the ten virgins represent, and what the OIL represents that cannot be bought or sold. And I've already said in my statements that the Bridegroom in the parable represents Lord Jesus Christ. So what's your problem? Can't you get your point across without thinking that I'm the one who needs Bible lessons? I assure you, it is you... that needs Bible lessons, and definitely not from the preachers you are listening to at present.

No problem with it. Your point is?

You mean you don't really know... that you are deceived about Christ's FUTURE literal Kingdom to Come that will ONLY happen on the day of His FUTURE 2nd coming. That's how things really are with you. Now the gist of your problem is though, whether you are being ignorant of that willingly, or simply just do not know. I believe it is the former.

I’ve heard that often, usually from those who struggle to understand Scripture—either because the message is hard to accept or they lack spiritual discernment. Typically coming from a Foolish Virgin. :-)

Of course you've probably heard that said to you often. You might consider heeding it, and go do more Bible study for yourself, asking The Father's help in the Name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

The day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come is past, present and future!

No it is not.

What you are claiming is a doctrine of men. Even the mention of the "day of the LORD" by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 46 is simply an 'ensample' for the last day of this present world when Jesus' 2nd coming occurs.

Claiming that the "day of the Lord" phrase can be applied to Old Testament destructions, or present day destructions, instead of ONLY for the LAST DAY of this world, is part of men's doctrines that believe Jesus' Kingdom has already come on earth today, when it has not, not His literal physical Kingdom over all nations like God's Word defines it.

Why have you failed to recognize Apostles Paul and Peter proclaiming the "day of the Lord" being at the END of this present world when they got that from the Old Testament prophets??? (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3)


What makes the "day of the Lord" an event ONLY to happen on the LAST DAY of this present world??

1. it is the ONLY time of Jesus Christ's future 2nd coming to do battle against His enemies on earth, and take His reign on earth.

2. the destruction on that "day of the Lord" on the LAST DAY, is about the END of this the things of this present world by God's consuming fire burning all of man's works off the surface of this earth, a destruction like the flood of Noah's day, except by fire. That never happened with ANY Old Testament past history event, nor has it ever... happened during this present day time.

3. the "day of the Lord" represent the START of Christ's future "thousand years" reign, ON THIS EARTH, over all nations, with His Elect Church, from JERUSALEM ON EARTH. This is what the Zechariah 14 Chapter is about.

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:

WHY... are some so eager in trying to move the timeline of Biblical events like the "day of the Lord", or Christ's future Kingdom, back to past or present when its events show it will only happen on the LAST DAY of this present world?

And they do that in the sense as if Christ's Kingdom has already come today, and some of their deceived group even tries... to claim that Jesus' reign over the nations is TODAY FROM HEAVEN while sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne, when Christ's literal future reign is still 'expecting' according to Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15.

Brethren in Christ, by this time we are in today, very close to the END, the Church should have recognized Lord Jesus' warnings of events to occur at the end, like the coming world beast kingdom shown Apostle John in Revelation 13:1. Only in the 20th century A.D. has that world beast kingdom idea come forth in public for us to recognize, with Internationalists creating globalist organizations like the United Nations, and their speaking openly about their plans to bring a "one world government" over all nations. That will be the fulfillment of the coming Antichrist's world beast kingdom for the future "great tribulation" time. Those in Christ are not to be part of that.

What many brethren do not recognize about that one world government plan, is that 'some' Christian organizations are involved in that plan. They are helping the Internationalists to bring it.

And one of the false doctrines they like to use, because the early Church actually believed that when Jerusalem and the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans, that meant Christ's Kingdom had come right then, in this present world. That is what those Church fathers believed back then. And the 16th century Reformers tried to confirm it again because of the persecutions they suffered at the hand of the Catholic Church for their trying to separate from the Catholic Church.

The reality is though, that Christ's literal physical Kingdom has NOT come on earth yet today. Nor will it until Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming with His elect, back to this earth, at Jerusalem to begin His reign over all nations with His "rod of iron". Christ's inherited throne is NOT in Heaven, but on earth, with David's throne. And Jesus will be King of Israel on earth, which is where His faithful Christian Church will also be.

The seminary doctrines of men that are most guilty of this movement is man's theories of Preterism, Full Preterism, Darby's Dispensationalism, Amillennialism, and Universalism.

All of those categories of the doctrines of men recognize that Christ's Kingdom has already come. Preterism especially recognizes this and thus treats the end time prophecies Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, and in His Revelation, as mostly PAST. Except they still do accept Christ's future 2nd coming.

Full Preterism likewise believes in the past, but even a deception that Christ's 2nd coming already happened in the past too, wrongly thinking the 2nd coming is only meant in the 'spiritual' sense. Be very careful when men's doctrines start claiming an easy to read Scripture doesn't mean what it literally says as written, but that it is meant in the 'spiritual' sense. That is one of the ways that Satan's children of darkness use to try and change the meaning of Bible Scripture.

Dispensationalism also treats Christ's Kingdom as having come for this present world. It often isolates Old Testament prophecy about Israel in order to create a separation between Christ's Church and Jesus as King of Israel. And it contains the wrong timeline of many end time events, especially when the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church will be.

Amillennialism treats Christ's Kingdom as already having come in this present world today. And even though they recognize Christ's 2nd coming is still future, many of them wrongly believe that Jesus is reigning over all nations now, from Heaven. And that it's up to us, Christ's Church, to help fulfill His Salvation here on earth, without... His being here yet of course. These especially work with the "one world government" host, because they see that as part of Jesus' plan of Salvation. That's how sick their doctrine of men hiding behind their preaching really is.

Universalism is probably the worse of the bunch, yet the most well meant in compassion for all peoples, especially the wicked and unsaved. They believe Christ's Kingdom will manifest when ALL... peoples repent and believe on Jesus Christ. They believe the wicked will be saved, and not perish. They reject the "lake of fire" destruction of the wicked. So in their churches, you'll get a very sweet message that sounds like they really care about all peoples. Problem is, God has already ordained a destruction in the future "lake of fire" for the devil, for the abode of hell (Hades), and death, and the wicked who will NOT accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. There won't be a rebellion against Him a second time, as He said.

 

[rwb]

No it is not.

What you are claiming is a doctrine of men. Even the mention of the "day of the LORD" by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 46 is simply an 'ensample' for the last day of this present world when Jesus' 2nd coming occurs.

Claiming that the "day of the Lord" phrase can be applied to Old Testament destructions, or present day destructions, instead of ONLY for the LAST DAY of this world, is part of men's doctrines that believe Jesus' Kingdom has already come on earth today, when it has not, not His literal physical Kingdom over all nations like God's Word defines it.

Why have you failed to recognize Apostles Paul and Peter proclaiming the "day of the Lord" being at the END of this present world when they got that from the Old Testament prophets??? (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3)


What makes the "day of the Lord" an event ONLY to happen on the LAST DAY of this present world??

1. it is the ONLY time of Jesus Christ's future 2nd coming to do battle against His enemies on earth, and take His reign on earth.

2. the destruction on that "day of the Lord" on the LAST DAY, is about the END of this the things of this present world by God's consuming fire burning all of man's works off the surface of this earth, a destruction like the flood of Noah's day, except by fire. That never happened with ANY Old Testament past history event, nor has it ever... happened during this present day time.

3. the "day of the Lord" represent the START of Christ's future "thousand years" reign, ON THIS EARTH, over all nations, with His Elect Church, from JERUSALEM ON EARTH. This is what the Zechariah 14 Chapter is about.

The prophet Jeremiah links the last days we've been living in since the first advent of Christ to the day of the LORD, when Messiah would make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Yes, Jeremiah indeed does point to what shall come to pass at the end of this age, because that marks the end or the last day for the day of the LORD the prophets foretell would come.

Prophecy:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Fulfilled when Christ came to earth to usher in the New Covenant in His blood.

Hebrews 8:8-9 (KJV) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 10:16-18 (KJV) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[TribulationSigns]

When you tried to put the Joel 3:15-16 Scripture in the sense as already having happened, per your post #139. Don't remember your own statements?

You said:

"There are the Day of the Lord for each of His congregation, whether Israel of Old or the Church of New, depending on the context. For example:​

​

Joel 3:15-16​

​

• "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
• The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

The end result was that the Lord cleansed the blood of people that He had not cleansed (Gentiles), and the New Testament church was established. The stars didn't literally/physically withdraw their shining or fall from the heavens; this all indicated the darkness in apostasy that was in Old Testament congregation as the messengers of God fell away from Him, and their Kingdom representative was taken (Matthew 21:42-43) from them. It is God's definition of signs, not the false teachers' definition."​

You continue to make a false accusation, and it shows you are not actually responding to what I said. My point has NOTHING to do with 1948 Israel. Your misunderstanding of Joel 3 only proves you are not listening to Scripture, nor discerning what God is declaring spiritually.

Joel 3:15 is covenant language—sun, moon, and stars represent the FALL of the Old Testament congregation. God removed the kingdom from them and gave it to another: the New Testament congregation, the true covenant Israel which the verse 16 refers to. This has nothing to do with the modern nation-state of Israel.

And frankly, the rest of your comment only demonstrates confusion. You’re speaking without understanding, and it shows. I’m not going in circles with you. Moving on.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Oh but I do... know Jesus' parable to the ten virgins well. So why are you bearing false witness against me about that when you haven't even heard me cover it? Do you always judge people's testimony BEFORE you've heard it?



"Humm...and?" NOTHING! If you knew those New Testament Scriptures I mentioned then you should have understood the proper timing of the events in the Joel 3 Chapter your doctrines of men tried to change.


Blah blah blah blah.......

It seems you’re letting your mouth run ahead of your thinking. Every reply you make only digs you deeper with these wild accusations. Slow down, because nothing you’re saying is grounded in Scripture or in what I actually stated.

Take a break from this forum, Davy.

 

[rwb]

You continue to make a false accusation, and it shows you are not actually responding to what I said. My point has NOTHING to do with 1948 Israel. Your misunderstanding of Joel 3 only proves you are not listening to Scripture, nor discerning what God is declaring spiritually.

Joel 3:15 is covenant language—sun, moon, and stars represent the FALL of the Old Testament congregation. God removed the kingdom from them and gave it to another: the New Testament congregation, the true covenant Israel which the verse 16 refers to. This has nothing to do with the modern nation-state of Israel.

And frankly, the rest of your comment only demonstrates confusion. You’re speaking without understanding, and it shows. I’m not going in circles with you. Moving on.

I've always believed the signs in the sun, moon, and stars are physical without considering Joel's prophecy through covenantal/spiritual language. In Rev 12 the sun the moon and the stars symbolize the Old Covenant congregation, from whom Christ was born. (see Gen 39:9-10) Is the prophet pointing to the apostacy of the Covenant congregation of Old deceived by the dragon and partly 1/3 being cast out of heaven spiritually speaking with Satan and his demonic messengers?

Joel 3:15 (KJV) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Revelation 12:1-2 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3-4 (KJV) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

?????

 

[TribulationSigns]

I've always believed the signs in the sun, moon, and stars are physical without considering Joel's prophecy through covenantal/spiritual language. In Rev 12 the sun the moon and the stars symbolize the Old Covenant congregation, from whom Christ was born. (see Gen 39:9-10) Is the prophet pointing to the apostacy of the Covenant congregation of Old deceived by the dragon and partly 1/3 being cast out of heaven spiritually speaking with Satan and his demonic messengers?

Joel 3:15 (KJV) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Revelation 12:1-2 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3-4 (KJV) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Okay. I will explain.

Genesis 3:14-15

• "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
• And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The Woman is a figure of the Seed's spiritual genealogical family (Spiritual Covenant Israel) from whom Christ sprung. The Serpent/dragon is a figure of the spiritual adversary, Satan. So in metaphorical language, God is illustrating salvation will come from the generation, seed, or family of the woman, and it is Jesus Christ as a seed will restore HER children to life from the death of the fall.

Revelation 12:1-3

• "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
• And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
• And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

Here again, we see the woman, the mother of all living, bring forth the Seed (which is Christ), and the 12 stars representing the children of the 12 spiritual tribes of Israel, (Revelation 7:4). Christ, the Seed of the woman came from the genealogy or family of Israel. He is the "man" child, the last Adam. The Dragon is the serpent, Revelation 12:9; Re 20:2, whom Genesis declared the Seed would bruise his head with His heel. He is whom the Scriptures declared would be at enmity with this woman (representing the children of God, the congregation). And God declared/prophesied the enmity between her Seed Christ and by extension all her children of Christ, and the Serpent's seed, who are the children of the Devil (1st John 3:10). The Scriptures are a gigantic Spiritual picture puzzle which when every piece is in the correct place, gives the big picture of the promise of Salvation. Even "from the beginning."

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the congregation of God’s people—Israel—with whom Christ confirmed the covenant with. This begins with the Old Testament congregation, the visible representation of the Kingdom of God up until the Cross.

By the time Christ was about to be born, Satan had already succeeded in drawing a “third part” of the congregation into apostasy pictured symbolically in Revelation 12:4:

Revelation 12:4

• “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”

As we know from the Gospels, the Jewish leadership rejected the Messiah—the Man Child. Because of this unfaithfulness, the kingdom representation was taken from Old Testament Israel and given to the New Testament congregation (Matthew 21:43). Thus, in the New Testament era, the Church becomes the outward representative of the Kingdom, yet the identity of the “woman” as God’s covenant people remains unchanged.

In other words, the people of God remain the woman, but the outward kingdom stewardship shifted from the Old Testament congregation to the New Testament congregation after the rejection of Messiah. After this, Satan has been going after the children of the New Testament congregation, those remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does matter, a lot. That because 'specific' Bible prophecies are given in connection with the final day of this present world when Jesus returns. Lot of talk about the "day of the Lord" without a solid foundation that it means the day of Christ's future 2nd coming cancels the terrible speculations that Preterists and Amillennialists have, trying to move the "day of the Lord" backwards to the time of Christ's 1st coming, or even back to Old Testament times, which both is error. And if the Pre-trib theories isn't bad enough, with where it tries to place that "day of the Lord" to mean the time of "great tribulation", I mean whew!!! enough already.

Hello? Is there anyone awake in there? Did you not read anything I said? I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return and I'm an amillennialist. But, here you are acting as if all amillennialists have the day of the Lord starting with Christ's first coming. You make a complete fool of yourself on this forum over and over again because of your HORRIBLE reading comprehension skills. I NEVER said that the day of the Lord started with the time of Christ's first coming. That is what I've been arguing against. Wake up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amillennialism treats Christ's Kingdom as already having come in this present world today.

Because that is what scripture teaches. Is Jesus not your King? Have you not been rescued from the dominion of darkness? Are you not in His kingdom? If not, you have serious issues.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[a] to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

And even though they recognize Christ's 2nd coming is still future, many of them wrongly believe that Jesus is reigning over all nations now, from Heaven.

Hello? Have you never read these passages...

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't have to wait and tell Lord Jesus that this present world is not His Kingdom Come, for HE is WHO told His Church!

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

Oh, but we now find out that YOU don't really listen to Lord Jesus Christ in His Word. Otherwise you would have recognized the above where He directly... showed that His Kingdom is not of THIS WORLD, and is still yet to come.

This is an extremely ridiculous argument. His kingdom is in the world, but not of the world just as He said He and His followers were in the world, but not of the world. His kingdom not being of this world does not mean His kingdom is not in the world, it means His kingdom isn't evil like this evil world and its kingdoms are.

John 17:11 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

Using the kind of faulty logic you use to interpret John 18:36, we would have to conclude that when Jesus said He and His followers were in the world but were not of the world, that meant that He and His followers did not yet exist, but would exist some time in the future. You are butchering John 18:36 because of your doctrinal bias. You clearly have no idea of what it means for Christ's kingdom to not be of this world. It doesn't mean it's not in the world any more than His followers not being of the world means we're not in the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word `Day,` in Hebrew and Greek means - a period of time and a specific day. Thus, we see both in God`s word and look to the context to tell us which it is.

Marilyn, where did I say otherwise? I did not. You're constantly reading things into people's posts that aren't there. I mean, you do it over and over again. Please stop doing that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, where did I say otherwise? I did not. You're constantly reading things into people's posts that aren't there. I mean, you do it over and over again. Please stop doing that.

Quote - I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return ......

 

[Marilyn C]

No.



You think it’s going to happen physically? Absolutely not.

Let me ask you something—do you even know where the throne of the beast is?
Which kingdom is it that becomes full of darkness?
What does it mean when it says they gnaw their tongues?
What are the pains and sores referring to?
And why—after all of that—do they still refuse to repent of their deeds?

If you want to answer, then answer biblically.
Don’t fall back on the vague, lazy excuse of: ‘It’s both spiritual and physical.’”

Can't wait to hear your biblical interpretation for these verses YOU QUOTED to see if you understand what the Lord talked about.

The throne of the beast, is in Babylon first and then Jerusalem. It is his kingdom rulership that becomes full of darkness. Satan and his demons were already in darkness. So by Satan having sway over the World System people were in spiritual darkness already, thus the kingdom rule of the A/C will be a physical darkness as well as the already spiritual darkness over Satan.

`For God did not the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.` (2 Peter 2: 4)

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

[TribulationSigns]

The throne of the beast, is in Babylon first and then Jerusalem. It is his kingdom rulership that becomes full of darkness. Satan and his demons were already in darkness. So by Satan having sway over the World System people were in spiritual darkness already, thus the kingdom rule of the A/C will be a physical darkness as well as the already spiritual darkness over Satan.

`For God did not the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.` (2 Peter 2: 4)

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

Incorrect. Satan's kingdom was ALWAYS full of darkness since the dawn of man. This has nothing to do with "world system" or particular countries. And I can see that you have not explained the meaning of gnawing their tongues for pain.

Guess my turn to give you biblical answer if you "receive" it.

Rev 16:10-11 (KJV)
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The Lord is talking about when the beast as the king of symbolic locusts coming out of the bottomless pit. The smoke locusts with power as scorpions, represent the false teachers under the spirit of the antichrist that has been loosed as judgment upon the unfaithful church, and their power was to hurt all those people within the congregation who have not yet sealed by God. This means they can only cause this same spiritual torment, pain or anguish upon those who are not saved or sealed (Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). Spiritually speaking they are hurt by this judgment of strong delusion that God has brought upon them as judgment. This is the judgment of the congregation that was once light but has become full of darkness under the bottomless pit ruler instead of Christ. Not about a nation called Babylon, or city called New York, or world system, etc.

Now what does the gnawing their tongues for pain refers to? The tongue in Scripture usually "signifies" either speech of language. And the darkness is the opposite of light, the absence of Christ, agree? So what we have here is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the wicked cannot any longer speak the Gospel (Pslams 119:172). This is the spiritual imagery signifying:

1.) The removal of light
2.) A famine of hearing the Word of God (darkness and chewing of tongue).

God is not telling us about some unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain which is absurd! Rather it is a spiritual imagery signifying God sending them a strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the Gospel goes. This signified by this imagery of them chewing their tongues that it can no longer can be used for God's purposes. In other words, that they become speechless or silent. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom since the Cross. But now with all Elect secured, the rest of the congregation, the unfaithful, is no longer a spokesperson for the kingdom of God for they now serve their king of the bottomless pit. It is when their tongue has been taken away from the church by this plague/judgment of God poured upon it. This is a time of famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8:11). Again this means people are literally chewing their tongues because of pain is nonsensical. No one literally chews or gnaws on their tongue because of physical pain. This is a FIGURE OF SPEECH which when comparing Scripture with Scripture we understand it used in order to portray the tongue as the purveyor of speech.

Ezekiel 3:26

• "And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."

The Tongue cleaving/sticking/clinging to the roof of someone's mouth is to signify they cannot speak (be a reprover), exactly the same illustration of the tongue being chewed because of God's wrath that they sit in darkness. ...for they are a rebellious house. This is how beast Satan has turned God's Church into apostasy where He rules over those deceived people that they will never repent of their deeds.

Selah!

 

[Marilyn C]

Incorrect. Satan's kingdom was ALWAYS full of darkness since the dawn of man. This has nothing to do with "world system" or particular countries. And I can see that you have not explained the meaning of gnawing their tongues for pain.

Guess my turn to give you biblical answer if you "receive" it.

Rev 16:10-11 (KJV)
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The Lord is talking about when the beast as the king of symbolic locusts coming out of the bottomless pit. The smoke locusts with power as scorpions, represent the false teachers under the spirit of the antichrist that has been loosed as judgment upon the unfaithful church, and their power was to hurt all those people within the congregation who have not yet sealed by God. This means they can only cause this same spiritual torment, pain or anguish upon those who are not saved or sealed (Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). Spiritually speaking they are hurt by this judgment of strong delusion that God has brought upon them as judgment. This is the judgment of the congregation that was once light but has become full of darkness under the bottomless pit ruler instead of Christ. Not about a nation called Babylon, or city called New York, or world system, etc.

Now what does the gnawing their tongues for pain refers to? The tongue in Scripture usually "signifies" either speech of language. And the darkness is the opposite of light, the absence of Christ, agree? So what we have here is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the wicked cannot any longer speak the Gospel (Pslams 119:172). This is the spiritual imagery signifying:

1.) The removal of light
2.) A famine of hearing the Word of God (darkness and chewing of tongue).

God is not telling us about some unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain which is absurd! Rather it is a spiritual imagery signifying God sending them a strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the Gospel goes. This signified by this imagery of them chewing their tongues that it can no longer can be used for God's purposes. In other words, that they become speechless or silent. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom since the Cross. But now with all Elect secured, the rest of the congregation, the unfaithful, is no longer a spokesperson for the kingdom of God for they now serve their king of the bottomless pit. It is when their tongue has been taken away from the church by this plague/judgment of God poured upon it. This is a time of famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8:11). Again this means people are literally chewing their tongues because of pain is nonsensical. No one literally chews or gnaws on their tongue because of physical pain. This is a FIGURE OF SPEECH which when comparing Scripture with Scripture we understand it used in order to portray the tongue as the purveyor of speech.

Ezekiel 3:26

• "And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."

The Tongue cleaving/sticking/clinging to the roof of someone's mouth is to signify they cannot speak (be a reprover), exactly the same illustration of the tongue being chewed because of God's wrath that they sit in darkness. ...for they are a rebellious house. This is how beast Satan has turned God's Church into apostasy where He rules over those deceived people that they will never repent of their deeds.

Selah!

I agree that Satan is the king over the symbolic locusts. However, where is the scripture/s for the false teachers being judgment upon the church in the trib?

Satan and the A/C will control the world system through deception and finance, (Rev. 13: 13 & 16) and that means International Infrastructure.

If the people are hurt as you say by a strong delusion, they wouldn`t even know they were deluded. They wouldn`t even care for spiritual imagery of removal of light and the word of God. That doesn`t even make sense.

You are spiritualizing it all too much. It is a physical world and God is giving physical judgments that do hurt so that a great multitude that no one can count will turn to God. They will be dying of heat/hunger/thirst. Maybe one, two or all of those. (Rev. 7: 16)

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree that Satan is the king over the symbolic locusts. However, where is the scripture/s for the false teachers being judgment upon the church in the trib?

God is using them as a tool of judgment upon his unfaithful congregation - those without the seal of God. Go read Revelation 9.

Satan and the A/C will control the world system through deception and finance, (Rev. 13: 13 & 16) and that means International Infrastructure.

Wrongo.

The world’s systems have always been under Satan’s power—that has never changed. What God is addressing is His own congregation, the people He has protected since Pentecost while Satan was bound, ensuring every Elect one would be secured. Only after that is accomplished does God permit Satan to enter the congregation itself.

That is where your focus should be—not on the White House, the New York Stock Exchange, Rome, or even modern Jerusalem in the Middle East, but on what God says about His congregation and the spiritual reality unfolding within it.

If the people are hurt as you say by a strong delusion, they wouldn`t even know they were deluded.

Exactly. That is the very nature of a strong delusion—the people under it have no idea they are deluded. Professing Christians, the foolish virgins, will insist that nothing is wrong with their church, their pastor, or their doctrine. They cannot recognize that God’s judgment is already upon them.

It is the same pattern seen in Jerusalem of old:

Isaiah 42:25
“Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.”

This is precisely what is happening within the New Testament congregation today. They do not perceive it because they do not understand what the abomination of desolation truly is. Meanwhile, their pastors preach messages so persuasive and polished that—if it were possible—they could almost deceive the very Elect. That is how severe the deception has become where they no longer find salvation anymore.

They wouldn`t even care for spiritual imagery of removal of light and the word of God. That doesn`t even make sense.

Say the foolish virgin. It is becasue they lack spiritual discernment of what the Lord talked about here. Do you deny there will a spiritual famine going on?

Amo 8:11-12
(11) Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
(12) And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

You are spiritualizing it all too much.

No God did, I am merely a witness to His Word. To say, "you are spiritualizing it too much" is like you do not like what you hear.

It is a physical world and God is giving physical judgments that do hurt so that a great multitude that no one can count will turn to God.

By literally chewing their tongues? LOL.

They will be dying of heat/hunger/thirst. Maybe one, two or all of those. (Rev. 7: 16)

Rev 16:8-9

• And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
• And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Do you even know who is the sun? And how it scorched men with great heat and fire? Do you understand this? Doubtfully!

The sun represents God, and by extension God's church. Just as Christ is the Israel of God, and by extension the church is spoken of as Israel. Or just as Christ as the sun is the light of the world, and the church as the body of Christ is spoken of as the light of the world.

John 9:5

• "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Christ is the light of the world.

Matthew 5:14

• "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

We are the light of the world because we represent Christ on earth. The Sun is the visible light of the world, signifying also the kingdom of Christ on earth. When the messenger pours out his vial on the Sun, it is God's judgment upon His church.

Selah!

The same illustration a in Matthew 24 of the sun becoming blood and the moon not giving her light, it's signifying the end of the church, as God judges her for her degradations. It is because she is being judged that these people in her blasphemed the name of God who had power over these plagues on her (spiritually Babylon) so that they would not repent to give Gods glory. They have usurped authority from God wherein they trust in themselves, they rule themselves as their own god, to do whatever s right in their own eyes. This is Satan loosed to damn those who are snared in self-justification wherein they simply would not receive the truth of God's Word.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the same principle, which is God's loosing of Satan that His judgment of these plagues upon Babylon is poured out on the unfaithful church that she will never rise again. Revelation 16 speaks of them being scorched with heat from the Sun to signify this is God's judgment and they are overcome of the evil one that "He" has sent. Those faithful who see these abominations and come out of the church in time are those who endured great tribulation and trial to receive eternal life.

As is pictured in James chapter 1.

James 1:11-12

• "For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
• Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

The withered grass from the heat of the sun are those who are under God's judgment. They are being trailed. But blessed are those that endure trial/temptation because these are those truly in Christ who the heat cannot harm.

Isaiah 49:10

• "They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them."

Which is why God says, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Revelation 18:4). The same plagues God says He has power over when He scorched these men with great heat. There is a consistent theme and scenario that runs through this whole episode all throughout scripture.

Over spiritualized, eh?

 

[Davy]

The prophet Jeremiah links the last days we've been living in since the first advent of Christ to the day of the LORD, when Messiah would make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

No, Jeremiah does not proclaim any such "day of the Lord" idea would happen at Jesus' 1st coming in that Jeremiah 31 Scripture you quoted. You've just been taught that by the preachers you listen to. Instead, the Jer.31:31-33 passage is ONLY about the coming of The New Covenant, not the "day of the Lord."