What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

[St. SteVen]

The remedy is what I have been trying to show everyone, but folks here are too conditioned, too brainwashed, too full of hate and pride to see it.

@St. SteVen is the closest one here to figuring it out. It absolutely has to do with Universal Salvation. However, the method in which said Universal Salvation works is something the so called 'Universalists' are still blind too.

The way it works is in Genesis 3. It answers all the questions about Hell and the Lake of Fire and what they are really all about.

Hello.
Thanks for the mention.
What are you proposing? (sorry, I haven't read the topic)
I'll go read the OP now.

 

[St. SteVen]

What does surely die mean? There are many interpretations to choose from:

• Spiritual death (whatever that means)
• Separation from God
• Begin the aging process and slowly die
• Death is certain... 'eventually'
• Other?

I conclude that it was spiritual death.
Though that is not what God said.
They certainly did not die in the day they ate thereof.

And they were banished from the garden lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.
Meaning they were already mortal. IMHO

I question whether Adam knew what death was.
Reminds me of a child that we tell to not run out into traffic lest they die.
The sternness of our voice says more than our words.
At some point they will see road kill and better understand.
But the cautionary warning probably comes before any awareness of what death is.

Questions about the Fall - The consequences shell game

--- PARODY --- The Fall revisited God: What is this thing you have done? Adam: She made me do it. God: What say you? Eve: The serpent made me do it. God: You will have great pain in childbirth. Eve: That wasn't the original consequence. God: You will eat by the sweat of your brow. Adam: That...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Hillsage]

The phrase 'surely die' shows up dozens upon dozens of times in the Old Testament. One of the most famous examples is in Genesis 2:17:
What does surely die mean? There are many interpretations to choose from:

• Spiritual death (whatever that means)
• Separation from God
• Begin the aging process and slowly die
• Death is certain... 'eventually'
• Other?

So how do we know which is the correct interpretation? What if there is another interpretation that is not even taught? These are important questions which will be addressed in this post. If Christians are teaching the wrong interpretation, that would throw Biblical doctrine into turmoil and chaos. Such a foundational teaching should not be filled with error. We need to get this right the first time.

We know that Jesus paid the price for sin....

• Spiritual death. Did Jesus 'die spiritually' for our sins on the cross? I know of no verse.

• Separation from God? What verse backs that? Cain left the presence of the LORD and he wasn't even born in the Garden. Can we assume Adam took the Presence of the LORD with him when he returned to the ground from which he was created? And that ground wasn't in the Garden, but it was in Eden, same place Cain was born.
GEN 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

• Begin the aging process and slowly die. Jesus' spirit, or soul, or body die slowly? scourged, beaten, crucified?

• Death is certain. "Surely die" is surely biblical. But again, on the cross, did Jesus' spirit die, did his soul die or did his body die? I believe his body died.

Summing up my opinion
What was the price for sin in the Garden? a surely Death. It wasn't, you can't go to heaven. Not even on the agenda.

What was the price in the NT?
JOH 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish = DEATH which is the same price in the NT as it was in the Garden. Nothing about not going to heaven in that verse either. I believe it is bodily death.

What was the price paid by Jesus on the cross? The bled out death of his FLESH. Flesh which was the PRE INCARNATE WORD of God to begin with. And GOD was spirit, the Father was spirit, the Word was spirit, and the Holy spirit was spirit. Because, before there was ANYTHING there was only the invisible God, who was spirit. And the invisible WORD gave up equality with GOD as spirit to become FLESH.

JOH 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Simply put, Gen 2:17 tells us that if we sin, then in the distant future we will die the second death.

What scripture tells us is that if we sin, we become a candidate to die the second death, however, if we repent and turn back to a meaningful relationship with God, then in the distant future we will be rewarded with Life.

Jesus warned those who were standing around him and listening to Him during His ministry, that some of them would taste/experience the second death when He comes back in the distant future, i.e. in around 3000 years' time from then.

That is why I can confidently write that there are some members of the board and some of the people who visit this forum to read members' post who will taste the second death when Jesus comes with all of His Heavenly Hosts at the end of the seventh age.

Shalom

 

[Hillsage]

Hello

Simply put, Gen 2:17 tells us that if we sin, then in the distant future we will die the second death.

Hello Jay,
I don't see the "second death" mentioned there in Genesis, or any other book until The Revelation. What would the first death have been here in Genesis? And please provide a scripture. I know I give too much when I post, but you are not providing any.

What scripture tells us is that if we sin, we become a candidate to die the second death, however, if we repent and turn back to a meaningful relationship with God, then in the distant future we will be rewarded with Life.

Name that/those scriptures you just mentioned.

Jesus warned those who were standing around him and listening to Him during His ministry, that some of them would taste/experience the second death when He comes back in the distant future, i.e. in around 3000 years' time from then.

I can't figure out which scripture you allude to here either. Mark 9:1 didn't fit, as I thought maybe you were trying to make a connection to.

I'll just stop here Jay, and do look forward to an answer to my questions. Also a refutation to any or all of what I shared.

I believe we both have the ability to do so and maintain a unity of spirit and of love for a brother who has a different opinion.

That is why I can confidently write that there are some members of the board and some of the people who visit this forum to read members' post who will taste the second death when Jesus comes with all of His Heavenly Hosts at the end of the seventh age.

Shalom @Jay Ross

 

[Exegesis]

...no one believes your supposed exegesis claiming that Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet of the Apocalypse, and all non-believers, are to be resurrected AFTER having been judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, and AFTER having been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

You clearly do not understand anything I wrote in this thread. I have never read Urantia, but I have seen way too many posts over the many decades I have been on the internet to know what a pile of rubbish that all is.

I have mostly found them to be full of boasting, thinking themselves to be wise, just like you. I'll now leave you to yourself. Have a nice thread.

OK.

 

[Exegesis]

Hello.
Thanks for the mention.
What are you proposing? (sorry, I haven't read the topic)
I'll go read the OP now.

Thanks for visiting and commenting @St. SteVen . I would respond to your threads but the moderators took away my posting privileges except for this sub forum.

There is a Spirit at work here that will not allow me to discuss things honestly, openly and academically. As a result, I am unable to defend my position since it will just be deleted like other posts I have made. Real truth is hated and despised.

There is a reason so many members here have thousands of posts to their name. They never said anything Satan has to worry about.

 

[Exegesis]

Thanks @Hillsage and @Jay Ross .

Unfortunately, there is too much censorship here for me to respond openly. Unless something changes, I will probably just move on.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello Jay,
I don't see the "second death" mentioned there in Genesis, or any other book until The Revelation. What would the first death have been here in Genesis? And please provide a scripture. I know I give too much when I post, but you are not providing any.

That is okay. Many people require the English Translations to have the term, "second death" actually printed in the translations that they read before they will accept that the term for the Second Death in the original language texts actually points to a future distant death that people will taste at the end of the Seventh Age.

Name that/those scriptures you just mentioned.

Matthew 16:28 - The outcome for not take up our cross
(Mark 9:1;[1] Luke 9:27,[2] John 8:51-52[3])

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death/the second death until {after} they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

---

[1] Mark 9:1: –– 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death/the second death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."

​

[2] Luke 9:27: –– 27 “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death/the second death till they see the kingdom of God."

​

[3] John 8:49-52: –– 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honour My Father, and you dishonour Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death/the second death."
52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste death.'

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Please note that all the above verses have been taken from the NKJV with my corrections.



Now I have come to this conclusion based upon my time meditating upon the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks @Hillsage and @Jay Ross .

Unfortunately, there is too much censorship here for me to respond openly. Unless something changes, I will probably just move on.

It does sadden me to hear your testimony. I say that because this is the 3rd forum I have truly spent at least some time. But nothing like the first two where I amassed thousands of posts before being kicked off And I always majored in the 'Unorthodox" I have always 'tried' to 'first' extend the right hand of fellowship to all who 'claim' to be "Christians". But all too often the right hand of fellowship eventually seems to met with the left foot of fellowship, from too many. You and Jay have both intrigued me as deeper thinkers. Hope you can hang here a bit longer.

 

[Hillsage]

That is okay. Many people require the English Translations to have the term, "second death" actually printed in the translations that they read before they will accept that the term for the Second Death in the original language texts actually points to a future distant death that people will taste at the end of the Seventh Age.

You still didn't answer my other question from post 145. "What would the first death have been here." (In Gen 2:17) "And please provide a scripture."

Matthew 16:28 - The outcome for not take up our cross
(Mark 9:1;[1] Luke 9:27,[2] John 8:51-52[3])

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death/the second death until {after} they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

---

[1] Mark 9:1: –– 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death/the second death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."

​

[2] Luke 9:27: –– 27 “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death/the second death till they see the kingdom of God."

​

[3] John 8:49-52: –– 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honour My Father, and you dishonour Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death/the second death."
52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste death.'

_______________________________________________________​

Please note that all the above verses have been taken from the NKJV with my corrections.

"Your corrections" were the first thing I did notice. I believe you know Greek much better than I. But I don't know where to draw the line between your corrections being 'just your opinion'. What is the authority from which you come to your 'second death' conclusions? What education in koine Greek do you have?

View attachment 79706

Now I have come to this conclusion based upon my time meditating upon the scriptures.

Loved seeing this page when I got to it. Been gone all day and barely read this far before having to leave for the "First church of the coffee shop." I fellowship a lot there, and have no commitment to any structured congregation other than a Wed night bible study, with a very small BRETHREN church locally. I like that they call their building....'the MEETING HOUSE'. The pastor has shared with me he doesn't say, nor does encourage the congregation to say; 'WE GO TO THE BRETHREN CHURCH'.

Love seeing your interest in "Thanatos" death above Jay. Now we differ.

I would like to show you my 'personal commentary notes' concerning the Philippians 3 verses, which are referenced at the bottom right, of your page and it is not highlighted in yellow. So read my thoughts on that book and hopefully see why I think the anastasis resurrection equates to the thanatos death. And the exanastasis ressurection equates to the nekros death.

My present opinion is, what you believe the second death and resurrection to be, is what I believe to be the FIRST. And what you believe to be the first death and resurrection is what I believe to be the SECOND.

YLT PHI 3:10* to know him, and the power of his 'rising again'/ANASTASIS, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11* if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead/NEKROS.

Phil 3:10 "resurrection" = anastasis and "death" = thanatos = resurrection FROM the dead ones
Phil 3:11 "resurrection" = exanastasis and "dead" = nekros = resurrrection OF the dead ones.

0386 ANASTASIS: a standing up again, i.e. (lit.) a resurrection FROM death (individual, gen. or by impl. (its author)), or (fig.) a (MORAL) recovery (of spiritual truth)
2288 THANTOS: (prop. an adj. used as a noun) death (lit. or fig.)

1815 EXANASTASIS: a rising from death
3498 NEKROS: dead (lit. or fig.; also as noun)

-YLT LUK 20:35 but those accounted worthy to obtain that AGE, and the rising again that is out of the dead/ANASTASIS, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage;

-EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead/NEKROS in trespasses and sins;

Shalom

I think I'm done for the night. Time to go downstairs with Mamma....AKA my wife. She just never did take to me calling her "My sugar booger".

 

[Exegesis]

2 different 'Adams' ?
Please list the verses that support your 'deluxe translation' :)

Here you go @rvmb ...

GENESIS CREATION CHALLENGE: Can you teach it without changing words and contradicting yourself? Doubtful.

The various ways in which the Genesis Creation Account is currently being taught have some very big problems. These problems are well documented for those that are unfamiliar with them. Basically, Genesis one through three teachings contradict themselves. To make matters worse, most teachings...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Hillsage]

Here you go @rvmb ...

GENESIS CREATION CHALLENGE: Can you teach it without changing words and contradicting yourself? Doubtful.

The various ways in which the Genesis Creation Account is currently being taught have some very big problems. These problems are well documented for those that are unfamiliar with them. Basically, Genesis one through three teachings contradict themselves. To make matters worse, most teachings...

www.christianityboard.com

Wow, read it and agreed and disagreed with so much. But you wrote so much that it was TOOOO much to deal with in this format. Would love to sit at a table and chew the meat together, and spitting out the bones? If we could both agree what was bones. I would just point out one thing here. That being, there is nothing that says Adam was made from the dirt of the ground in the Garden as I read in your URL Genesis challenge.

GEN 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

So, Adam was made somewhere farther WEST in the land of Eden. And after making Adam there, God then went and planted a garden. After that he put 'the man' he had formed in West Eden to farther "eastward in Eden". After the fall in the Garden of EASTWARD EDEN God kicked Adam out and sent him back to west Eden.

GEN 3:23* Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Just two questions.
FIRST; Have you ever heard this concept above? I never heard it taught before, but I do believe He revealed it to me a couple weeks ago.
SECOND; Have you ever read the works of A. P. Adams?

 

[Exegesis]

Wow, read it and agreed and disagreed with so much. But you wrote so much that it was TOOOO much to deal with in this format. Would love to sit at a table and chew the meat together, and spitting out the bones? If we could both agree what was bones.

I wish I had the time. I am so busy with work and other things. You sound like a lot of fun to talk to.

So, Adam was made somewhere farther WEST in the land of Eden.

That makes sense.

And after making Adam there, God then went and planted a garden. After that he put 'the man' he had formed in West Eden to farther "eastward in Eden". After the fall in the Garden of EASTWARD EDEN God kicked Adam out and sent him back to west Eden.

GEN 3:23* Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

That is a really good observation.

Just two questions.
FIRST; Have you ever heard this concept above? I never heard it taught before, but I do believe He revealed it to me a couple weeks ago.

This is the first time I heard it. I feel like there is something very important with that concept.

I tend to look at the Garden of Eden as being symbolic of a tabernacle or temple. To go east is to go out of the tabernacle and to the outside world. To go west is to go into the Most Holy Place. This would line up perfectly with what I believe the meaning of being 'driven out' means.

I can't say too much right now, but it's sort of the opposite of this:

​

Adam went from intimate fellowship to restricted access.

SECOND; Have you ever read the works of A. P. Adams?

I have not. Is this his book?

Bible harmony: a study of the Bible as a whole.. : Adams, A. P. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

1 v

archive.org

Unfortunately, this statement has been proven false:

​

Changing the word 'day' into 'a thousand years' just doesn't work in so many ways. Again, this is not my opinion, this is just the reality of it.

After reading a few pages, the author seems to be making a case for universal salvation. Is this correct?

​

He appears to be going in the right direction.

 

[Cassandra]

The first death is the death we all experience. But there is a second death too. that is the one Jesus saved us from.

If everyone is saved, it negates the following:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Okay, so evidently this does not refer to the first death. This verse makes it clear that those who believe in Him should not perish, but what does it mean for those who don't believe? It means they will perish--not stay tormented for eternity- that would be perishing not perish. It does not mean that everyone will be saved either.


Eze 18--the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
We are not immortal only God is 1 Tim 6:16. “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

Immortality is a gift
Romans 6 verse 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

​

​

​

 

[Exegesis]

It means they will perish--not stay tormented for eternity- that would be perishing not perish.

Hi @Cassandra . Just to be clear, you believe that the unsaved will simply no longer exist after the Second Death?

 

[Hillsage]

I wish I had the time. I am so busy with work and other things. You sound like a lot of fun to talk to.

I tend to look at the Garden of Eden as being symbolic of a tabernacle or temple. To go east is to go out of the tabernacle and to the outside world. To go west is to go into the Most Holy Place. This would line up perfectly with what I believe the meaning of being 'driven out' means.

0796 astrape: lightning; by anal. glare

MAT 24:27 For as the lightning/GLARE comes from the EAST and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Not the "son of God" or the "son of David" but the "Son of man".....hmmmm?

MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning/GLARE, and his raiment white as snow: 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus,

I can't say too much right now, but it's sort of the opposite of this:

View attachment 79766​

Adam went from intimate fellowship to restricted access.

How restricted are you thinking? That's the question I ask locally with those capable of discussing things. Did the first Adam loose enough 'intimacy' or 'fellowship' to loose the anointing/christos on his spirit, to loose the 'title' of "Son of God"? But still held the bloodline that Fathered Cain who Fathered Enoch who Fathered Methuselah....unto Jesus, the second Adam and fully manifested "SON OF GOD"?????

I have not. Is this his book?

Bible harmony: a study of the Bible as a whole.. : Adams, A. P. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

1 v

archive.org

The book I have was a self published book so there is no copyright or publishing company in front. But it is a compilation of his monthly bible study lessons which began in March of 1885, for the fee of "One Dollar per Annum". And this book has 184 pages of topical bible studies in it. I know it's him, but believe it may be a different book.

Unfortunately, this statement has been proven false:

View attachment 79767​

Can you give me a clue as to a 'chapter' or 'topic heading' that I can look for in my book?

Changing the word 'day' into 'a thousand years' just doesn't work in so many ways. Again, this is not my opinion, this is just the reality of it.

Would love to expound a bit on why I believe there is some truth to this point above. But don't want to bloat every post. You are a working man and I just don't want to take that much time typing.

After reading a few pages, the author seems to be making a case for universal salvation. Is this correct?

View attachment 79768

View attachment 79770​

He appears to be going in the right direction.

He was very much a universalist.....back when being a 'universalist' meant one thing. Now it has morphed liked denominationalism.
It's sort of Iike the old days of saying "I'm a Baptist!" Now there's so many flavors of Baptist we have to say the ocean all those Baptist boats float in is Baptist.
I now have study/morphed long enough in the ocean of' Universalism' to feeling 'most comfortable' saying I am an 'Ultimate Reconciliationist'.

 

[Exegesis]

MAT 24:27 For as the lightning/GLARE comes from the EAST and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Not the "son of God" or the "son of David" but the "Son of man".....hmmmm?

I'm a big fan of the Trinity.

Revelation 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God.

How restricted are you thinking? That's the question I ask locally with those capable of discussing things.

My thinking is not restricted. It's my freedom to write those thoughts on restrictive forums that is the problem. This is why I rarely talk to folks anymore. Not only do my threads get deleted, but, on some forums, every single post I and everyone else ever made gets deleted. That is not fair to anyone when that happens.

Truth is a dangerous thing nowadays.

Did the first Adam loose enough 'intimacy' or 'fellowship' to loose the anointing/christos on his spirit, to loose the 'title' of "Son of God"?

No. The First Adam that was created on the Third Day and the Adam that was created on the Sixth Day had the same spirit. As far as the soul, that is a bit more complicated. It was the same with Ishshah and Eve. Same spirit, just reconfigured differently via the soul.

Just remember that the Bible teaches that a living organism's genome is its soul. All life has a soul.

But still held the bloodline that Fathered Cain who Fathered Enoch who Fathered Methuselah....unto Jesus, the second Adam and fully manifested "SON OF GOD"?????

So the First Adam did not have any reproductive organs. Neither did Ishshah. You mentioned 'tilling the ground' earlier. The original meaning of tilling the ground was to create life from the ground the way God did. Not by farming, but by literally forming life from the dust of the ground. That was our original purpose. We were to have the power to do this:

Genesis 2:19 - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

In fact, this is what our main purpose will be in the New Heavens and New Earth. We are going to help God create and maintain literal life from scratch. That is what the Kingdom of God is all about. It is about life and having the 'keys' to bind it or loose it:

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Therefore, there is no need for procreation and creating life 'the old fashioned way' through sex, etc. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil changed all that. The First Adam and Ishshah were given 'shame', i.e., reproductive organs. That process ended up with Ishshah becoming Eve and the First Adam becoming another Adam but keeping the same name.

The Forbidden Fruit was simply the zygote we all are conceived into. It is a 'born again' type of process.

Anyhow, Jesus is the Last Adam, not the 'second Adam' as some claim:

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

If I were to push the envelope on this, I could make a case that God made a sort of 'avatar' of himself in the First Adam. In other words, we could be looking at Kenosis here. As an Engineer, this is something I would do myself as a prototype for me to enter into the new world I just created and testing things out.

Jesus was the First and Last:

Revelation 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

First and last what? First and last Adam. Long story short, Adam being the Son of God is something I see as being very literal. He got us into this mess, he will get us out. Simple, fair, logical.

As far a seed goes, I believe all come from Adam and Eve. Some argue that there were others before Adam and Eve and that is who Cain married. I am not a fan of that, but I keep an open mind in case I am wrong.

There is deep symbolism in the Old Testament that must be 'deciphered' using the New Testament. I spent a lot of time doing that. Basically, the so called 'snake' that the Serpent was recreated as is what we call 'sperm'. Yeah, that is what the creature crawling on its belly is:

Genesis 3:14 - And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

People assume it was a snake. My advice is to always question EVERYTHING. Like you mentioned earlier, we come from dust, we return to dust. The sperm does just that in order to conceive.

Long story short, said sperm was placed in the reproductive organs of Adam and thus, his first child was Cain:

John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It was the Devil that fertilized the Forbidden Fruit Ovum. Father is literal. Jesus was not teaching us to 'curse people out' in John 8:44. The Serpent became sperm 'crawling on its belly', and said sperm became Cain. The whole process is there for anyone to see. Unfortunately, Christians have been fed milk and have no clue what I am talking about here.

We all left our first love. We left the Father in Heaven and traded him for the Devil. It is what it is. Thankfully our original Father is willing to take us back.

Note that 'thorns and thistles' are symbolic of people:

Genesis 3:18 - Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

Adams loins will now bring forth good and bad fruit. Seth of course led to Jesus.

Can you give me a clue as to a 'chapter' or 'topic heading' that I can look for in my book?

I'm not sure what you mean.

He was very much a universalist.....back when being a 'universalist' meant one thing. Now it has morphed liked denominationalism.
It's sort of Iike the old days of saying "I'm a Baptist!" Now there's so many flavors of Baptist we have to say the ocean all those Baptist boats float in is Baptist.
I now have study/morphed long enough in the ocean of' Universalism' to feeling 'most comfortable' saying I am an 'Ultimate Reconciliationist'.

Right on. Verses like this are literal to me:

Colossians 1:20 - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

All means all.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm a big fan of the Trinity.

Me too, just not the way it was endorsed in 400 AD by the church of Rome.

Revelation 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God.

Are you sure? Doesn't say that's His name, even in the context 2 verses earlier. Jesus is not even named that many times in the whole Book of The Revelation.
.
REV 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

More depth here to plumb. But your post is too long.

My thinking is not restricted. It's my freedom to write those thoughts on restrictive forums that is the problem. This is why I rarely talk to folks anymore. Not only do my threads get deleted, but, on some forums, every single post I and everyone else ever made gets deleted. That is not fair to anyone when that happens.

Truth is a dangerous thing nowadays.

TRUTH started getting the saints martyred and crucified in 64AD by the very same church who gave us so many doctrines packaged with some bad meat IMO.

No. The First Adam that was created on the Third Day and the Adam that was created on the Sixth Day had the same spirit. As far as the soul, that is a bit more complicated. It was the same with Ishshah and Eve. Same spirit, just reconfigured differently via the soul.

Different take; I do believe in a 24hr day and a 1,000 year day, of creation and forming. Of 'declaring' and in 'coming to pass'.

2PE 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The spiritual understanding of the thousand year day is that it is "the day of the Lord".
In the Jewish Midrash it was taught that Adam was destined to live a thousand years. But he didn't quite make it....one sin???
IN MY OPINION one spirit per person. And the soul is nothing more or less than the functioning BRAINS in humans. Mind, Will, Emotions.....It. is the psyche.

Just remember that the Bible teaches that a living organism's genome is its soul. All life has a soul.

Let's just pretend there is only ONE bible and then there's YOUR'S and MINE's OPINIONS. Because my bible does not agree with your bible. The flesh has genetic material in whole body. And triune us is spirit, soul, and FLESH. Soul itsn't seen in a microscope, but flesh is. IMO.

So the First Adam did not have any reproductive organs. Neither did Ishshah. You mentioned 'tilling the ground' earlier. The original meaning of tilling the ground was to create life from the ground the way God did. Not by farming, but by literally forming life from the dust of the ground. That was our original purpose. We were to have the power to do this:

Interesting concept I 'll run with it from my paradigm. Adam, after receiving the anointing of his spirit became like God, or androgynous, capable of reproducing Himself as He did when He made Adam his only SON out of all the others in WEST EDEN. But His FATHER wasn't on board with that plan,therefore neither the WORD or The Holy Spirit were either. So the TRIUNE GOD caused an anesthesia sleep to come upon Adam for surgery...by the GREAT PHYSICIAN. God didn't take a rib, look it up, he took a SIDE like a side of beef. Put the right organs in the right places re arranged things and put them together. But only Adam had a 'son of God' anointed human spirit. EVE was not 'the daughter of God' getting half of Adam's spirit. She got a non christos spirit. That's why she was temptable and Adam was not. HE chose to lay his life down for His bride, just like Jesus did for us....the many membered bride. But every one of us who is born again DOES get the very same spirit of christos that Jesus was born with. That's what makes all of us SONS OF GOD after our spirits which are not "Jew nor Greek, MALE or FEMALE", but they are masculine. And the souls of all humans are not male nor female but feminine.
I'll just stop here.

In fact, this is what our main purpose will be in the New Heavens and New Earth. We are going to help God create and maintain literal life from scratch. That is what the Kingdom of God is all about. It is about life and having the 'keys' to bind it or loose it:

The Kingdom of God is about the government of God....period. No spirit marriage in my bible. And in my opinion.

Therefore, there is no need for procreation and creating life 'the old fashioned way 'through sex, etc. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil changed all that. The First Adam and Ishshah were given 'shame', i.e., reproductive organs. That process ended up with Ishshah becoming Eve and the First Adam becoming another Adam but keeping the same name.

The Forbidden Fruit was simply the zygote we all are conceived into. It is a 'born again' type of process.

Anyhow, Jesus is the Last Adam, not the 'second Adam' as some claim:



If I were to push the envelope on this, I could make a case that God made a sort of 'avatar' of himself in the First Adam. In other words, we could be looking at Kenosis here. As an Engineer, this is something I would do myself as a prototype for me to enter into the new world I just created and testing things out.

Jesus was the First and Last:



First and last what? First and last Adam. Long story short, Adam being the Son of God is something I see as being very literal. He got us into this mess, he will get us out. Simple, fair, logical.

As far a seed goes, I believe all come from Adam and Eve. Some argue that there were others before Adam and Eve and that is who Cain married. I am not a fan of that, but I keep an open mind in case I am wrong.

There is deep symbolism in the Old Testament that must be 'deciphered' using the New Testament. I spent a lot of time doing that. Basically, the so called 'snake' that the Serpent was recreated as is what we call 'sperm'. Yeah, that is what the creature crawling on its belly is:



People assume it was a snake. My advice is to always question EVERYTHING. Like you mentioned earlier, we come from dust, we return to dust. The sperm does just that in order to conceive.

Long story short, said sperm was placed in the reproductive organs of Adam and thus, his first child was Cain:



It was the Devil that fertilized the Forbidden Fruit Ovum. Father is literal. Jesus was not teaching us to 'curse people out' in John 8:44. The Serpent became sperm 'crawling on its belly', and said sperm became Cain. The whole process is there for anyone to see. Unfortunately, Christians have been fed milk and have no clue what I am talking about here.

We all left our first love. We left the Father in Heaven and traded him for the Devil. It is what it is. Thankfully our original Father is willing to take us back.

Note that 'thorns and thistles' are symbolic of people:



Adams loins will now bring forth good and bad fruit. Seth of course led to Jesus.



I'm not sure what you mean.



Right on. Verses like this are literal to me:



All means all.

Too much to deal with. We need to get to bite size or I am fading. Takes too much time....and I don't even see how you're doing it.

Good nite bro. Time for bath and TV with my sugar booger........I mean wife.

 

[Exegesis]

I appreciate the response @Hillsage . I will do my best to post my thoughts. Note that I will probably come off as if I am 'boasting', something I get accused of every now and then. I'm actually a humble and modest person, it's just that I happen to have spent decades researching some of these topics and know certain things that most people don't. I paid a big price for that.

If I am long winded in my post it is because the messages are for all folks to consider. Time is running short.

Me too, just not the way it was endorsed in 400 AD by the church of Rome.

I see.

I'm cool with what they came up with, however they could have done a better job explaining the details of how the Trinity works using science, biology, logic, Scripture etc. I happen to understand the Trinity concept better than most people on the planet, and that infuriates the Spirit at work in some of these forums. I have been banned for that as well. It's another subject that would cause a complete paradigm shift if the average Christian really knew what the Trinity was about. It's absolutely mind blowing.

Since the story of Adam and Eve has the concept of the Trinity 'entangled' in it, you can imagine how some of the Old Testament only folks (aka, New Testament haters) have a meltdown when I show them how it's been there the whole time. There is a real and wicked agenda to eliminate the Trinity concept. I have run into it thousands of times in various forums and made many enemies. The Trinity is one of the biggest Keys to solving everything, and the Powers That Be do NOT want folks to be enlightened.

Are you sure? Doesn't say that's His name, even in the context 2 verses earlier. Jesus is not even named that many times in the whole Book of The Revelation.
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REV 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Well, if you wish to get technical then sure, we can just leave it at the Logos/Word of God:

Revelation 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Just remember that the Word was made flesh. We call that DNA now. We know what that is. Everything that Jesus is symbolic of points to genetics, aka, seed. Jesus is literally described as a Nucleobase in many passages. Seven is all about Nitrogen as in Nitrogen Bases. It's all there waiting for the right time to come out.

Now, I'm going to sound boastful again, but whatever. As an engineering contractor and consultant, I have worked with several of the leading biotech companies on the planet. Some of the technology I have designed isn't even on the market yet. The stuff I have seen and worked on is terrifying. Anyhow, the point I am making is that I *KNOW* what Scripture is describing when it comes to genetics. It's obvious to me and others that are in this field. God has dedicated much of the writings of the Bible to be understood by Genetic Engineers when the time was right. Humanity is just now entering that phase. Some incredibly intelligent people that hide in the shadows helped me with this research. I did not do it alone.

The bottom line about Salvation is that it's about Eugenics, PERIOD. There are two kinds of Eugenic programs at war with each other:

• God's Eugenics Plan
• Man's Eugenics Plan

Coincidentally, the Epstein files are revealing the mankind version to the public at this very moment. People are freaking out over it. And they should! Like I said, it's terrifying what is happening right now. There are lots of videos going around describing all of the gory details. Much of it is stuff I have warned about for decades.

More depth here to plumb. But your post is too long.

I hear you. I don't expect you to address everything I say. It's really just me getting my info out to everyone here before it disappears again.

TRUTH started getting the saints martyred and crucified in 64AD by the very same church who gave us so many doctrines packaged with some bad meat IMO.

I was a Catholic for over three decades until the interwebz came along and woke me up.

Different take; I do believe in a 24hr day and a 1,000 year day, of creation and forming. Of 'declaring' and in 'coming to pass'.

2PE 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The spiritual understanding of the thousand year day is that it is "the day of the Lord".
In the Jewish Midrash it was taught that Adam was destined to live a thousand years. But he didn't quite make it....one sin???

I see. I will continue in the next post as this one is going past the 10,000 character limit.