What if early documents of Scripture had been lost?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
mjrhealth said:
The disciples being "x Jews" would only, like Christ ever considered the OT, teh Torah to be Scripture since that is what they where taught.
16 as also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

It is my opinion that when Peter said the rest of the scriptures he was speaking of the OT. However, for Peter to say "as they do the rest of the scriptures" means that Peter is equating Paul's writing as being scripture.
 

Skitnik

New Member
Nov 12, 2015
51
2
0
H. Richard said:
I can't see that I asked a question. What I did was point out that Peter said Paul's writings are scripture. I see no reason for you to say I was un-polite.\

Perhaps the scripture I quoted upset your ideas and it is not polite to upset your ideas.
More like the questions I asked and you cannot answer change whole definition of "scripture" the way to are trying to use it.
 

Skitnik

New Member
Nov 12, 2015
51
2
0
OzSpen said:
Skitnik,

Of course I know of the Council of Nicaea. I didn't come down in the last theological shower. I have a PhD in NT.

However, you have provided not one link to a piece of evidence to support your view. These are nothing more than your assertions without documentation.

Here is one piece of documentation of what happened at 'The First Council of Nicaea' in AD 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, online).

There is further documentation on 'The Council of Nicaea, AD 325' in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church (online).

Oz
Why would PhD need links to anything? You know about "Fifty Bibles of Constantine". They became "Government approved" bible and later canonized almost without changes. Emperor now presiding over councils would make sure that his version is the approved one.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Tom,



I do agree Hippo and Carthage were instrumental in fixing NT and OT scripture as Gods word. But why did God not let the Christians before the fourth century KNOW which writings were inspired by him?

How do you know God didn't let the Christians know? This we do know:

In speaking of the books of the Old Covenant (OT) and New Covenant (NT), F F Bruce wrote:

The former collection came into being over a period of a thousand years or more; the latter collection has a more inaugural character. Its various parts were written within a century from the establishment of the new covenant; they may be regarded as the foundation documents of Christianity. It was not until the end of the second century AD that the two collections began to be described, briefly, as the Old Covenant (or Testament) and the New Covenant (or Testament). These short titles are attested in both Greek and Latin almost simultaneously - in Greek, in the works of Clement of Alexandria, ca AD 150-215, [The Stromata, 1.9; 3.13; 4.21; 5.13]; in Latin, in the works of Tertullian of Carthage, ca 155-240, [Against Marcion 4.1; Against Praxeas 14, 15]' (Bruce 1988:21-22).

We know that the Muratorian Canon (MC), the oldest known list of NT books, was available from about AD 170 - the traditional date (Bruce states the date of the MC being drawn up is disputed but he dates it around the end of the 2nd century) [Bruce 1988:158]. This was a list that included 22 NT books that excluded the Book of Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, and 1 of John's epistles.

However, the compiler accepts the Apocalypse of Peter, He regarded the Letter to the Laodiceans, the Letter to the Alexandrians as spurious, but he considered the OT apocryphal book, Wisdom of Solomon, as canonical. So as early as the late 2nd century, the MC lists 22 of the 27 books that have been accepted in the NT canon. The MC link that I have given here is to Bruce Metzger's translation of the MC where he states, 'Owing to the wretched state of the Latin text, it is sometimes difficult to know what the writer intended; several phrases, therefore, are provided with alternative renderings (enclosed within parentheses)'.

I don't know the mind of God to the extent you want us to know: 'why did God not let the Christians before the fourth century KNOW which writings were inspired by him?' That's in his sovereign will and if he wanted me to know, he would have revealed it somehow. He hasn't, so you seem to be asking a question for which we have no answers.


Also, if Hippo and Carthage canonized the NT scripture why doesn't everyone accept the OT books they canonized? If those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the NT how did they get the OT wrong?
For the same reason fallible, sinful human beings have contrary opinions today about which books should be in the OT canon. You have a premise with which I do not agree. I do not have the evidence that the men who canonised the OT and NT were 'inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the NT'. You claim they got the OT wrong. That would not be accepted as a true statement by a large chunk of people around the world today who call themselves Christians.

For almost 400 years Christians were reading (possibly hundreds) different writings from different people they thought were inspired by God. Why did God not reveal to them his true word? If he waited 400 years to reveal his true word who is to say he won't wait to reveal more of his word at a time when humanity needs it most? I believe all things are possible with God? Don't you? It would have been a lot easier if Jesus would have told us which books belong in the bible :)
Again you have a premise for which you have not provided any documentation, of people reading hundreds of documents that they thought were inspired. From where did you obtain that information? You provided not one piece of documentation to affirm what you stated. Are you guessing with that kind of statement?

What was the level of literacy in the first 400 years of the church's existence? What was the availability of codices and papyri to the general populace? There are lots of unknown factors regarding reading ability. Do you accept 'The Importance of Oral Tradition' in early Christian propagation of the Gospel and Bible content?


And yes, I know Paul was "considered" an apostle but generally when one refers to "the apostles" they think of the original twelve which is what I meant and you should have inferred.
No, Paul was not 'considered' an apostle. He was an apostle. I provided the biblical evidence in my last post and I'm not repeating it. If one eliminates Paul from the list of NT biblical apostles, he/she is going counter to Scripture.

Don't go gettin' all book smart and scholarly on me otherwise we will start confusin' each other!! :D
Nice try! :popcorn:

Oz

Works consulted
Bruce, F F 1988. The Canon of Scripture. Glasgow: Chapter House / Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Skitnik said:
Why would PhD need links to anything? You know about "Fifty Bibles of Constantine". They became "Government approved" bible and later canonized almost without changes. Emperor now presiding over councils would make sure that his version is the approved one.
This is a red herring of a reply. You did not address the issues I raised. Again, your reply is loaded with your presuppositions, without evidence to support them.
 

Skitnik

New Member
Nov 12, 2015
51
2
0
[SIZE=14pt] Oz. Since you refuse to answer my questions I have no choice but to return the favor. This is the place where people come to have a conversation and not an interrogation. You may feel like your PhD gives you right to interrogate anybody who is below your degree. I do not see it that way. Plenty of “PhDs” in religion of that time could not even realize who Jesus is.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Tom: I do agree Hippo and Carthage were instrumental in fixing NT and OT scripture as Gods word. But why did God not let the Christians before the fourth century KNOW which writings were inspired by him?
OZ: How do you know God didn't let the Christians know?

Tom: Because they were reading over 100 different writings they thought were inspired. The Church later decided they weren't inspired writings. Sooooo that means they didn't know that what they were reading WASN'T inspired and if they didn't know then obviously God didn't let them know.



TOM: Also, if Hippo and Carthage canonized the NT scripture why doesn't everyone accept the OT books they canonized? If those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the NT how did they get the OT wrong?
OZ: For the same reason fallible, sinful human beings have contrary opinions today about which books should be in the OT canon. You have a premise with which I do not agree. I do not have the evidence that the men who canonized the OT and NT were 'inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the NT'. You claim they got the OT wrong. That would not be accepted as a true statement by a large chunk of people around the world today who call themselves Christians.

TOM: So if the Holy Spirit didn't inspire (guide) them, who did? Also, would you please quote where is said "they got the OT wrong". I don't recall saying that!


TOM55: For almost 400 years Christians were reading (possibly hundreds) different writings from different people they thought were inspired by God. Why did God not reveal to them his true word? If he waited 400 years to reveal his true word who is to say he won't wait to reveal more of his word at a time when humanity needs it most? I believe all things are possible with God? Don't you? It would have been a lot easier if Jesus would have told us which books belong in the bible :)
OZ: Again you have a premise for which you have not provided any documentation, of people reading hundreds of documents that they thought were inspired. From where did you obtain that information? You provided not one piece of documentation to affirm what you stated. Are you guessing with that kind of statement?

TOM55: One letter can make a big difference. Strike the "s" off of the word hundreds in my quote above since I intended to say over one hundred. Counting the 73 books of the bible gets me almost 75% of the way to my over one hundred statement. The rest you can find in the following links:
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.bible-researcher.com/bruce1.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-rejected-books.htm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101013235233AAqymFz[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKZrBDn7t4&index=8&list=PLcUoxtZThAaDH0nFjplV3coMFz8Mpp3X0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.slideshare.net/franciscmihail/the-lost-books-of-the-bible-the-great-rejected-texts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.charlescosimano.com/uploads/2/7/5/1/2751618/forbidden_books_of_the_origi.pdf[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://rejectedscriptures.weebly.com/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/515144/10294183/1295394820537/Books+That+Didnt+Make+the[/SIZE]+
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.thechristianidentityforum.net/downloads/Lost-Christianities.pdf[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/07/08/what-are-the-lost-books-of-the-bible-is-this-important/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]http://storage.cloversites.com/bethanybiblechurch/documents/Extensive%20Article%20-%20Books%20Rejected%20-%20Pseudepigrapha.pdf[/SIZE]

I realize not all these were read by all the churches and most were probably read in only a few churches, however, they were in use, being read alongside Mathew Mark Luke and John and there were well over a hundred.

OZ: What was the level of literacy in the first 400 years of the church's existence? What was the availability of codices and papyri to the general populace? There are lots of unknown factors regarding reading ability. Do you accept 'The Importance of Oral Tradition' in early Christian propagation of the Gospel and Bible content?

TOM55: The level of literacy was low. Maybe the literate people were hoodwinking the illiterate people by writing so many different "Gospels" to convince them to follow them instead of the legitimate Church leaders of the time. I do believe in the importance of Oral Tradition. It is in scripture!! See, we agree on some things! ;)

TOM55: And yes, I know Paul was "considered" an apostle but generally when one refers to "the apostles" they think of the original twelve which is what I meant and you should have inferred.
OZ: No, Paul was not 'considered' an apostle. He was an apostle. I provided the biblical evidence in my last post and I'm not repeating it. If one eliminates Paul from the list of NT biblical apostles, he/she is going counter to Scripture.

TOM55: If we both went to different churches and asked 100 people coming out of those churches on Sunday morning to name all the Apostles do you think any of them would say Paul? I am going to bet that +80% would not name Paul as an Apostle if they could even name all of them. They would probably get Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Judas. You, OZ, are an average guy talking to an average guy; Tom55. If you feel you are above average when it comes to knowledge of the bible then you, in my opinion, are on the wrong forum. You should find a forum for Theologians. With all due respect: If your going to stay on this forum you shouldn't talk so condescending to us average Christians.



Respectfully........Tom55
 

toknowthetruth

New Member
May 11, 2015
113
1
0
Interesting discussion. Going back to the OP on the accuracy of scripture it does seem to me that there is room to question the doctrines of infallibility/inerrancy since God had to rely on man to record, preserve and protect the scriptures from corruption. If one believes in free will, as I do, it just seems pretty unlikely that God could have prevented corruption from entering in since man is by nature infallible. Seems to me He would have had to intervened quite a bit with man's will considering all the history of what the scriptures have had to endure.

Plus the fact that, as far as I understand, there is historical evidence as well that would call these doctrines into question. Even the OT has recorded the fact that there was even a time when the scriptures had been completely misplaced and no one had an actual written copy until it was discovered hidden away in the Temple somewhere. Not a very good case for either of these doctrines.

I'm not saying we can't rely on the scriptures. From what I understand there is sufficient evidence for a high degree of accuracy and dependability. I just don't think we should elevate them to being on the same level as God Himself, which is what these doctrines seem to be doing as far as I can tell. I can see there are problems in both accepting and rejecting them. But seems like, in the interest of truth, it's best to go with what the evidence points to. And in my opinion it points more against them than for them.