What is faith?

[H. Richard]

I also believe grace covers past and future sins.

1. I never said it did, nor implied that to Richard, yet he continues to charge me with legalism. Yet, if one does not "repent" then they are not saved. A person can claim they love Jesus all day, but it doesnt mean anything unless they turn from a lifestyle of sin toward Jesus Christ. Someone who really puts their faith in Jesus does so with their whole being, not just their tongues. This doesnt mean they live perfectly, but it does mean they put old ways behind them. A person cannot love God and the things of this world, they must choose one or the other.
2. God's grace doesn't just put a person in heaven. God's grace empowers them to live differently. The same power that raised Christ from the dead lives in the believer to bring inner transformation to their lives. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” (Romans 6:22, ESV) Holiness is more than just a decree from God (although it is that), its is a lived reality that beings to form in the person who is touched by the grace and power of God.
3. As mentioned above, God's grace has transformative power. When the Word of God really manifests itself in a person's life, then transformation takes place. Creation is an illustration of this. In the beginning, the world was formless and void and dwelt in darkness. Yet God's Spirit hovered over the waters and God spoke. Through that, the formless world took on order, beauty and light. In the same way, through the Word of God, the Spirit of God and the waters of Christian baptism, a person becomes a "new creation." The old it put away and new order, beauty and light floods the person's life due to the working of God's love, grace and word. To suggest that God's grace would touch a person and that person would continue unashamedly reveling in lust, adultery, homosexuality, fornication, greed, hatred and filthy talk really calls the power of God's grace and Spirit into question, in my opinion. It would be like saying God said, "Let there be light" and the world stayed shrouded in darkness. How could that be? God's grace is powerful in its working. Yes, it can be resisted, but if a person is really lives by faith in God's grace, then their life is different. That is what James is talking about...and he is right.


Personally, I do not believe I have been out of line. I have not attacked Richard personally, but I have said that his views are heretical (which they are). These are very weighty matters. He has continually attacked me concerning views I do not hold. More importantly, he has essentially claimed that James was in error, much of the NT doesnt apply or is wrong and that Paul is the only one who really preached the true Gospel..whereas the rest of the NT is written under the legalism of OT Judiasm and was incorporated in the Bible due to a legalistic early church that was twisting the true Gospel Paul preached. I find these views extremely dangerous and I think it is very important to let Richard and others reading how seriously dangerous his ideas are as they pertain to the nature of the Gospel and the Apostles teaching, the early church and the authority and validity of Scripture.

So you believe in grace that has paid the sin debt of the whole world. I believe that too and am on this form teaching it. But you think that if I don't teach good works I am a heretic. For your consideration how about letting God decide what is a good work for His children to do.

If teaching salvation by the grace of God given to mankind is heretical then Paul was a heretic.

I posted a tragic story about a person that was only taught that if you sin you can't be saved. If the gospel of social/moral living is what is taught without the foundation/basic gospel of Grace then there will always be those that can not find grace.

I have faith in, belief in, trust in, confidence in the salvation that Jesus gave to me as a free gift. My OP about true faith is bad mouthed by some and yet it is the only way to heaven; true faith in Jesus' work on the cross. But because I teach it I am a heretic. That is all right Wormwood because this heretic will be in heaven praising God for what He did for me, not what I did, but for what He did.

 

[H. Richard]

““Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”” (Matthew 18:23–35, ESV)

So was Jesus a legalist who didnt understand grace? I dont think so...

If someone's life isnt changed by grace, then they are wicked and will be judged. Faith produces good fruit. If it doesnt then it is worthless.

PS, Hebrews 11 goes on to list the gracious and sacrificial actions that displayed their faith... Notice, it doesnt say, "By faith Abraham made a good confession and then sat on his hands. By faith Moses' parents trusted God but then handed Moses over by fear of the king's edict...." No, their faith was displayed by their actions. This is not a difficult concept. Faith and good works are not antithetical to one another. A person is not saved by what they do, but neither is faith void of action and repentance. The Bible commends faith that leads a person to transformed living. If faith does not change a person's acts, then it is not the faith of Abraham.

Faith + Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Faith - Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Good works - Faith = Salvation (NO!)
Faith -> Good works = Salvation (YES)

I personally like the one about the wedding feast. It was Jesus telling the Jews that when they reject Him as their Messiah and king he would go out to the Gentiles with the message of grace. The one cast out refused to wear the wedding garment that the host gave him but wanted to be able to wear his own filthy garments (self-righteousness).

Matt 22:8-13
8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.'
10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was
13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
NKJV

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, the message of grace is free and available to all. I see no contradiction between these two stories Jesus tells. Are you suggesting that Jesus didnt preach grace to the Jews, but works based righteousness (i.e. you must forgive to be forgiven)? Whereas in the story of the King's son and the wedding banquet he is telling the religious leaders (his audience in the narrative) that God's grace to the Gentiles is different from the grace that was available to them? I dont think Jesus preached grace to the Gentiles and works-based righteousness to the Jews as you have suggested previously. The Good News of the Kingdom Jesus preached was that grace by faith in him was offered to all and that this grace came to those who hunger and thirsted for a righteousness they did not have through their own legalistic efforts (which is why so many "sinners" followed him). Jesus forgave and healed with a word. He did not tell the Jews stories about forgiving to be forgiven because he expected them to follow the law. That story, along with all of Jesus' stories, relate to the Kingdom of God and how one responds to God's grace and becomes a part of that Kingdom (repentance).

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, the message of grace is free and available to all. I see no contradiction between these two stories Jesus tells. Are you suggesting that Jesus didnt preach grace to the Jews, but works based righteousness (i.e. you must forgive to be forgiven)? Whereas in the story of the King's son and the wedding banquet he is telling the religious leaders (his audience in the narrative) that God's grace to the Gentiles is different from the grace that was available to them? I dont think Jesus preached grace to the Gentiles and works-based righteousness to the Jews as you have suggested previously. The Good News of the Kingdom Jesus preached was that grace by faith in him was offered to all and that this grace came to those who hunger and thirsted for a righteousness they did not have through their own legalistic efforts (which is why so many "sinners" followed him). Jesus forgave and healed with a word. He did not tell the Jews stories about forgiving to be forgiven because he expected them to follow the law. That story, along with all of Jesus' stories, relate to the Kingdom of God and how one responds to God's grace and becomes a part of that Kingdom (repentance).

It is the scriptures that teach us that the law has been set aside and replaced by grace. I am not only suggesting it but have shown proof of it in the scriptures.

You said that you teach grace but this post is works of the law, not grace.

Jesus never taught grace. He taught law to those under the law (the Jews). But you can't see that can you? When Jesus said a person has to forgive in order to be forgiven He was teaching the Law, but you can't seem to see that What I see you teaching is that we are saved by grace but then we have to pay for that salvation by keeping the law. That is progressive salvation, saved by grace and then saved by a person's works.

Why can't you see that there was an age of law that has been replaced by something much better; GRACE. Grace is not law keeping.

2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ)
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.

Note that there are two, not one, Ministries mentioned in the verses above, Law and grace and one is being replaced. which one was replaced? Wasn't it the Law?

Heb 3:11-15
11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'"
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
NKJV

We are to hold fast to our confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross, not our works of the flesh.

What are we to place our confidence in, our belief that we are doing good?

 

[Wormwood]

It is the scriptures that teach us that the law has been set aside and replaced by grace. I am not only suggesting it but have shown proof of it in the scriptures.

Yes, I believe in the New Covenant of grace and that we are saved by grace, not law.

You said that you teach grace but this post is works of the law, not grace.

I have said nothing about the law in my post. It's clear that you believe repentance is a work of law. Paul preached that ALL people must repent (Acts 17:30; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Cor. 7:9; 12:21; 2 Tim. 2:25). Repentance is not contrary to grace by faith. It is an expression of faith and a necessary precondition of receiving grace.

Jesus never taught grace.

This is the most absurd thing I have ever read.

He taught law to those under the law (the Jews). But you can't see that can you?

Wasn't it you that quoted Jesus' parable of the King's son and said, "It was Jesus telling the Jews that when they reject Him as their Messiah and king he would go out to the Gentiles with the message of grace." But I thought you said Jesus didnt teach grace? Again, the notion that Jesus taught law and legalism and not grace is utter nonsense.

What I see you teaching is that we are saved by grace but then we have to pay for that salvation by keeping the law. That is progressive salvation, saved by grace and then saved by a person's works.

That is not what I teach. I teach immediate salvation by grace and progressive sanctification. One receives grace by repenting and surrendering to Jesus. They do not EARN it by their deeds. Rather, they display their faith in Christ as their Lord by putting wickedness aside (as Paul plainly teaches in the above texts and about 50 other verses).

Why can't you see that there was an age of law that has been replaced by something much better; GRACE. Grace is not law keeping.

I never said any such thing. Why cant you see that repentance is not law-keeping? Likewise, producing good fruit and submitting your members to God's service is not "law keeping."

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (Romans 6:12–14, ESV)

Those who are "under grace" will not live in sin, but offer their bodies to God's service. Those who think grace has nothing to do with how you live or even that grace is a license to sin...will be condemned.

“But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.” (Romans 3:7–8, ESV)

God did not give us grace to empower us to sin or make sinful living irrelevant. Paul makes it very clear that grace is not a license to sin, nor does it make our behaviors irrelevant. Those who are crucified with Christ must put to death the misdeeds of the body. That is what faith looks like. Since we trust that Christ has crucified our old man of sin, we now yield our bodies to God as instruments of righteousness. This isnt law-keeping. It is the essence of walking in faith in the knowledge of Christ giving us freedom from the power of sin. You are seriously mistaken.

 

[FHII]

2. God's grace doesn't just put a person in heaven. God's grace empowers them to live differently. The same power that raised Christ from the dead lives in the believer to bring inner transformation....

To suggest that God's grace would touch a person and that person would continue unashamedly reveling in lust, adultery, homosexuality, fornication, greed, hatred and filthy talk really calls the power of God's grace and Spirit into question, in my opinion.

No. Thats not was grace does nor what its about. I absolutely believe that God can bring change in a person's life, but its not the job of grace. Your one verse is from where? Romans 6? Romans 6 is the most hacked up chapter of the Bible. Never read in proper context.

Wormwood, how come you didn't include wearing mixed cloth, not having a battlement, planting mixed seed and working on the sabbath to your list? No need to really say it out loud.... I already know.

What about lying? What about stealing? You said lust... Well thats good. And God will take away that desire of men to want the hot new BMW! Oh? Not the lust you were talking about?

Grace doesn't seem to be giving us power over these sins.... Why?

 

[Wormwood]

What you see as bitterness is, as far as I am concerned, a discussion. All though I do think Wormwood should stop making it personal by denigrating my character. But I am sure he sees it that I am doing it to him.

I apologize if I ever denigrated your character. Can you show me where? I have said your views are heresy and you are heretical. I stand by that comment. That is not a comment on your character, but on your doctrine.

 

[Wormwood]

No. Thats not was grace does nor what its about. I absolutely believe that God can bring change in a person's life, but its not the job of grace. Your one verse is from where? Romans 6? Romans 6 is the most hacked up chapter of the Bible. Never read in proper context.

Wormwood, how come you didn't include wearing mixed cloth, not having a battlement, planting mixed seed and working on the sabbath to your list? No need to really say it out loud.... I already know.

What about lying? What about stealing? You said lust... Well thats good. And God will take away that desire of men to want the hot new BMW! Oh? Not the lust you were talking about?

Grace doesn't seem to be giving us power over these sins.... Why?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Grace is given to those who seek it. Those who seek it put aside their own selfishness and surrender themselves to Christ. This is why Jesus could not reach the Pharisees. They refused to humble themselves and repent. They did not feel they needed to repent. "We see!" they said. "We are not blind!" But Jesus said he came to heal the sick, not those who felt they didnt need a physician. Repentance is basically a person surrendering to God and turning aside from self to humble themselves and their lives before God. A person does not bring their own lusts and agendas to the foot of the cross. They come as beggars, or they arent really coming at all.

Suggesting someone receives grace simply by praying a little prayer but not surrendering their lives to God is modern-day Gnosticism.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the comments about mixed cloths and the sabbath. Repentance is not (and never was) a call to obey the mosaic law. It was a call to turn from inner pride, arrogance, and self-righteous lusts to surrender to Jesus. If a person feels that they should keep the Sabbath as a means of honoring Jesus, then so be it. They should walk in faith and do what they feel honors God. However, it is their faith that honors God, not their legalistic righteousness. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 

[FHII]

I apologize if I ever denigrated your character. Can you show me where? I have said your views are heresy and you are heretical. I stand by that comment. That is not a comment on your character, but on your doctrine.

For real? You said, "you are heretical". How is that not an attack on his character?

 

[FHII]

A person does not bring their own lusts and agendas to the foot of the cross. They come as beggars, or they arent really coming at all.

Suggesting someone receives grace simply by praying a little prayer but not surrendering their lives to God is modern-day Gnosticism.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the comments about mixed cloths and the sabbath

A person doesn't bring their own lusts and agendas to the cross? Really? Thats the best place to bting them and allow christ to forgive them.

Your second paragraph is slanderous. I'm trying to believe you are an honorable person. But isn't a good day for you so far. When did i suggest anything of the sort that you said?

You don't have any idea why I brout in comments about mixed cloth and the sabbath? Well, I believe you.... You don't have any idea so i will break it down for you.

There is roughly 450 laws in the OT. You picked about 10 of them in what modern day Bible Belt thinkers are the absolute worst! You claim (falsely, and thus heretically) that grace will cause a believer not to want to lust, be gay, commit adultery pretty much anything that centers around sex.

Why?

Why not Catfish, shrimp, pork, drinking milk with steak?

And why not lying and stealing? Think twice on that before commenting.

I will answer for toy. Its because you see sexual desires as a big sin and something that we MUST NOT do. Yet, everything else isn't that big of a deal.... Cause we all do it.

But... According to the book of JAMES....

 

[Wormwood]

The definition of heretical is:
a. believing in or practicing religious heresy
b. holding an opinion that is at odd with what is generally accepted.

This is true of H. Richard's beliefs. They are heresy. They are outside of orthodox and are contrary to the basic principles of what Christians throughout the ages have believed. That is the very definition of heretical. It means his views are a schism and break away from the norm. In fact, the concept of heresy refers specifically to one's beliefs, not their character. A person has heretical beliefs, not a heretical character (such a comment makes no sense). Character attacks include comments like, "You are a liar. You are stupid. You are a jerk. You are arrogant. You are pompous" You get the point. Character attacks question motive and the heart. It suggests that the real motive going on behind a person's comments is that they are trying to deceive, or they are unintelligent, or they are full of themselves, etc. There are many JW's that are kind and thoughtful people. That doesnt mean they are not heretical in their views (as far as orthodox Christianity is concerned).

If anyone boarders on making character attacks, it is Richard. He implies that I, like other "religious" people, am out to "get self-rightness for themselves in the eyes of others." This is clearly an attempt to question my motive about why I believe good works should accompany people of faith. But, I am not concerned about it. Just giving you an example.



One last comment for you and Richard. Paul, himself, makes it very clear that grace, by its very nature, produces life transformation and results in holy living. Consider the following verses:

“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Titus 2:11–15, ESV)

In sum, grace appeared in order to...

• bring salvation to all people
• train us to renounce ungodliness, worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age

Jesus gave himself to...

• redeem us from all lawlessness
• purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for good works

Paul tells Titus to "declare these things" and not let the message be disregarded. Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[FHII]

Emphasis on the wrong words and total lack of respect for the entire chapter.

 

[mjrhealth]

God taught grace to teh Jews the yjust didnt listen

Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mat 12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

or the classic

Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

I dont know HR what it is, but I have never seeing Wormwood preach the law in any post.

 

[mjrhealth]

This is true of H. Richard's beliefs. They are heresy. They are outside of orthodox and are contrary to the basic principles of what Christians throughout the ages have believed. That is the very definition of heretical. It means his views are a schism and break away from the norm

No His views are not Heretical He is one of teh few I have seeing who actually inderstands. What teh norm is and what Is true dont always agree.

 

[Wormwood]

Emphasis on the wrong words and total lack of respect for the entire chapter.

smh. This is a non answer. If you think I have misquoted, misapplied or misrepresented the text, please show me how. My point was not to say that the focus of Paul's discussion here was the purpose of grace. However, it is very clear that in the midst of Paul's discussion, he does refer to the goal of God's grace in our lives. I emphasized it because it is directly related to our discussion regarding the nature of grace and what it yields in a person's life.

No His views are not Heretical He is one of teh few I have seeing who actually inderstands. What teh norm is and what Is true dont always agree.

Based on the core teachings of Christianity, the early Christian councils and the fundamental beliefs of both Protestants and Catholics regarding the nature of the Gospel and the contents of the canon....they are heretical. There is a reason all those books are in every Bible we read....its because it is universally agreed upon by all Christians that they belong in our Bibles. When someone says that most of those books dont belong in the NT, then they are unorthodox and teaching ideas that are not consistent with basic Christianity. Show me some Bibles that only include the writings of Paul in the NT and I will concede the point that he is orthodox. Otherwise, such teaching is heretical. If you agree with his teaching, sorry to say, that also makes you heretical. You can argue that he is right if you like. However, his views are clearly not orthodox or in line with what Christians believe and have believed throughout history. Its a different argument to claim Richard is right. But as far as the history and teaching of Christians throughout the ages, his views are heretical. Its just a simple fact. Christian history and orthodoxy does not change because a few people on a discussion board are in agreement that James and the early church got it wrong...

 

[mjrhealth]

Otherwise, such teaching is heretical. If you agree with his teaching, sorry to say, that also makes you heretical. Christian history and orthodoxy does not change because a few people on a discussion board are in agreement that James and the early church got it wrong...

One small part, but does that make one a heretic. its a nice way of saying i dont agree with you, and that part abt james i am not sure ,havnt read all his post, just got tired of Him saying you where preaching the law which you never did, but still He is one of the few i have seeing with much understanding. May have to read more.
And there are books which are not in the bible which "men" decided shouldnt be in there, that doesnt mean they shouldnt of being, we where never meant to live by the book we where meant to be led by the Spirit, man just isnt that smart.

 

[Wormwood]

mjhealth,

What he has taught to this point (correct me if I am wrong, Richard) is essentially that most of the NT is in error. He claims that much of the NT is steeped in Jewish OT legalism and was included in the canon by a misguided early church. He teaches that Jesus never taught grace but taught legalism under the Jewish law. Only Paul's writings constitute a true understanding of the Gospel. John, Peter, James, the author of Hebrews, etc. all got it wrong. Their writings all are in conflict with the true Gospel of grace taught by Paul and therefore are either in error or just are irrelevant because they were written by Jews under the Old Covenant.
So basically, he does not acknowledge most of the NT and seems to only acknowledge the writings of Paul (which is why I have been quoting Paul's teaching on grace (see above) to show him that Paul and the other authors of the NT (and the words of Jesus) are not at odds with each other). This teaching of his is heresy...and I personally believe are incredibly false and dangerous. His teachings reflect that of the heretic Marcion.

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, I believe in the New Covenant of grace and that we are saved by grace, not law.


I have said nothing about the law in my post. It's clear that you believe repentance is a work of law. Paul preached that ALL people must repent (Acts 17:30; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Cor. 7:9; 12:21; 2 Tim. 2:25). Repentance is not contrary to grace by faith. It is an expression of faith and a necessary precondition of receiving grace.


This is the most absurd thing I have ever read.


Wasn't it you that quoted Jesus' parable of the King's son and said, "It was Jesus telling the Jews that when they reject Him as their Messiah and king he would go out to the Gentiles with the message of grace." But I thought you said Jesus didnt teach grace? Again, the notion that Jesus taught law and legalism and not grace is utter nonsense.


That is not what I teach. I teach immediate salvation by grace and progressive sanctification. One receives grace by repenting and surrendering to Jesus. They do not EARN it by their deeds. Rather, they display their faith in Christ as their Lord by putting wickedness aside (as Paul plainly teaches in the above texts and about 50 other verses).


I never said any such thing. Why cant you see that repentance is not law-keeping? Likewise, producing good fruit and submitting your members to God's service is not "law keeping."



Those who are "under grace" will not live in sin, but offer their bodies to God's service. Those who think grace has nothing to do with how you live or even that grace is a license to sin...will be condemned.



God did not give us grace to empower us to sin or make sinful living irrelevant. Paul makes it very clear that grace is not a license to sin, nor does it make our behaviors irrelevant. Those who are crucified with Christ must put to death the misdeeds of the body. That is what faith looks like. Since we trust that Christ has crucified our old man of sin, we now yield our bodies to God as instruments of righteousness. This isnt law-keeping. It is the essence of walking in faith in the knowledge of Christ giving us freedom from the power of sin. You are seriously mistaken.

But you sin just like the rest of us. But you indicate that you don't when you condemn others for their sins. Isn't that the sin of hypocrisy, blaming other for doing what you are doing too.

I have said before that I agree Paul teaches that the children of God SHOULD try to keep from sinning but I disagree that Paul said if we sin we are lost. After all didn't Jesus' shed His blood to pay for all the sins of mankind? Or did it just pay for the sins of the past and now a person is in charge of keeping him/her self from the condemnation of their sins of the flesh?

If the gospel of grace does not save a person from his/her sins of the flesh then no one will ever be saved. Can't you see this?

Your big on repentance but what is repentance? Something you do when you think you have sinned? True repentance is an attitude of knowing you are sinful in the flesh and reaching out to Jesus, IN FAITH, that His work on the cross has saved you from your sinful SELF.

I will post what I believe to be true repentance.

 

[FHII]

smh. This is a non answer. If you think I have misquoted, misapplied or misrepresented the text, please show me how. My point was not to say that the focus of Paul's discussion here was the purpose of grace. However, it is very clear that in the midst of Paul's discussion, he does refer to the goal of God's grace in our lives. I emphasized it because it is directly related to our discussion regarding the nature of grace....



If you agree with his teaching, sorry to say, that also makes you heretical. You can argue that he is right if you like. However, his views are clearly not orthodox or in line with what Christians believe and have believed throughout history. Its a different argument to claim Richard is right. But as far as the history and teaching of Christians throughout the ages, his views are heretical. Its just a simple fact. Christian history and orthodoxy does not change because a few people on a discussion board are in agreement that James and the early church got it wrong...

[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works...


Thats from the KJV.

Grace doesn't train us to do anything.... It doesn't directly even teach us anything (yes I know what the verse says). Faith teaches us, Truth teaches us, doctrine teaches us and the Holy Ghost teaches us. All these things are connected to grace and all are mentioned as teachers in this epistle.

The only way grace teaches us is by living in its state. It reminds us what we have been forgiven of and how God sees us through grace. We aren't sinless, we are imputed sinlessness through grace.

The scripture says that Christ redeemed us and purified us (yes i realize the text is not in past tense, but plenty of others bear record that its already been done).

Furthermore, believing that grace leads us to not sinning flies in the face of all other Bible teachings on grace which is always proven to be unmerited favor and the forgiveness of sins. NOT bringing us back under the law (and yes.... That IS what you are proposing it does).

I don't have a lot of respect for anyone who calls another Christian a heretic. That is despite whether I agree with him or not. I don't have a lot of respect for "orthodxy" either... But I still don't insult such.


I'm pretty sure that none of that matters though....

 

[Wormwood]

But you sin just like the rest of us. But you indicate that you don't when you condemn others for their sins. Isn't that the sin of hypocrisy, blaming other for doing what you are doing too.

I dont know what you are talking about. Where did I condemn someone for their sins? Where have I ever said that someone is saved by works and not grace? Where did I say I do not sin?

I have said before that I agree Paul teaches that the children of God SHOULD try to keep from sinning but I disagree that Paul said if we sin we are lost. After all didn't Jesus' shed His blood to pay for all the sins of mankind? Or did it just pay for the sins of the past and now a person is in charge of keeping him/her self from the condemnation of their sins of the flesh?

I am not in complete disagreement with you on this point. I think the problem I have with your teaching is that you see James (and other NT authors) as teaching legalism, not grace. What is the difference in saying that a child of God SHOULD try to keep from sinning and saying that true faith SHOULD include good deeds? Why is the former acceptable and the latter legalism? This is what James is teaching, that true faith is followed by good works. My primary issue with you is how you undermine the scriptures and argue that any emphasis on living a life of holiness due to the grace we have received is the same thing as trying to earn that grace. You dont seem to understand that one proceeds from grace and the other is an attempt to earn grace. I teach the former not the latter...as does the other authors of the NT.

If the gospel of grace does not save a person from his/her sins of the flesh then no one will ever be saved. Can't you see this?

Ive told you about 100x that I agree with this. You just dont seem to want to believe me. What I have been arguing is that when a person comes to Christ, they come in an attitude of repentance. Repentance doesnt EARN grace and it isnt an attempt to work for it. Repentance is a genuine humility that calls for grace and without it, grace is not given. Look at it like this... A boy has his hands full of old rocks. I say, "Hey boy, I have two bars of gold I want to give you that is of incredible value. Its a free gift. You dont have to do anything for them. You just have to accept my gift. The boy looks at me and says, "Okay, Ill take them." I say, "Ok, let go of your rocks so you can take them." The boy says, "But I like my rocks and I want them." I say, "Well, if you want to take these gold bars, you have to let go of those rocks. You cant hold both. These gold bars are of incredible value. Believe me, those rocks are useless. Just take these gold bars!" He says, "I dont want to let go of my rocks." Or, better yet, he says, "Ok, I'll take the gold bars" But then never lets go of the rocks.

Repentance is simply the act of letting go of the old to take up the new. If the boy lets go of the rocks, is he "earning" the gold bars? Of course not! He is just taking them. The call to repent and turn away from the old life is not a call to "earn" salvation. A person can never "earn" the blood of Jesus. However, God says, "If you are serious about making Jesus the Lord of your life, you have to repent and surrender to him." Paul preached repentance, as did Jesus, as did Peter, as does James. Repentance is not earning anything. It is not seeking righteousness through legalistic observance. Repentance is simply a surrender of self to the will and grace of God. Does repentance mean a person will never sin again? Of course not! Does repentance mean a person may continue to struggle with certain addictions? Yes. Repentance is a heart issue. It says, "I will turn from my old life. I want a new life in Christ." Though a person will still stumble and grace covers those stumbles, repentance brings the heart to the foot of the cross.

If a person comes to the Lord with their own agenda and sinful life and says, "I want eternal life, but I am not going to turn from my sin or change my behaviors. I want to keep my rocks" That person will receive no grace from the Lord. A heart that is corrupt, unforgiving, and fixed on selfishness is not repentant and is not truly seeking to make Christ the Lord of their lives. God is not mocked. He does not accept mere lip service. This is what the Pharisees did and why God rejected them. They said they loved God, but "this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." Their devotion to God was all superficial and talk. They brought no heart to it. They felt they needed no grace because they were good enough. They didnt feel like they needed to change anything. Therefore those who said "I see" were left blind.

This is what I have been trying to communicate. A person does not receive grace by lip service. Nor do they receive grace by "earning" it. They receive grace by humbling themselves and repenting before God. This repentance includes a surrender of the will to God and is empowered to live a transformed life that can overcome the power of sin in the flesh through the Holy Spirit.