What is Mystery Babylon?

[Lizbeth]

Adding virtue is arete...Greek...for manliness. Courage. Achilles was seen by the Greeks as a paragon of arete. He, and Leonidas...the hero of Thermopylae. It represents a selfless courage that is ashamed to back down. To let the city or army down. Some "experts" cite arete as a defensive courage...not taking one step back. Like the Athenian who anchored himself to the ground with a spike attached to his belt and inspired the army to hold firm thus winning the battle. He was awarded with a prize for his arete.

As such I am also inspired to speak the truth in spite of any or all opposition. I cannot back down. I am anchored to the truth through Christ.

We could speak in generalities..and I could ignore the answers that are given..also in generalities. or else, rather than be defensive in the wrong way....ie, self-interest... we could be courageous in declaring the truth that convicts us of sin. I have nothing to do with the superficialities and generalities that try to obfuscate the very real problems that exist with modern doctrines and the church.

So you didn't depart from iniquity and add virtue to your faith then when you were born again? That was a specific question, not general.

 

[Ziggy]

Grace IS about holiness. The New Covenant is about bringing a holy people to God to dwell with Him forever.

It's also about creating a people in which he can reside in.
Sometimes I think we forget that that path goes both ways.

We can try to attain to dwell with God, but are we willing to be attained by God to dwell with us and in us?
You are the host of the banquet that God wishes to sit at and eat. As well as we want to eat at his banquet table and sit and eat.

The question becomes: What are we serving God at our banquet table?
We know what God serves us by looking at the fruit of the Spirit he tells us to be partakers of.
But what do we serve God of ourselves?
Is he pleased with what is offered?
What does God want from us?

Hugs

 

[Lizbeth]

I see all these in Peter. But then I have to remember that Peter is also a mirror of those things we find in ourselves.
So if I judge him unrighteously, or say maybe Peter did what he did, so we could see our own image through his character,
then who am I to judge?
Am I any better than he? Would I react or do the same things? Have I, will I ?
Now we have an example what not to do by his example and the Lord chastising him.
So his grace is our grace. If God forgives murderers and liars, if they repent and are converted, then there is still hope for us all.


It is our job to look at the fruit and see if therebe any bruises or discoloration or worms or rot in them.
And then take a long deep look into that fruit and see if any of those things are in your own fruit.
And pluck them out.

Amen! it's all written as a mirror...think God didn't hide the foibles and failures of His saints, or His responses to them, so that we would see and learn for ourselves. Learn about ourselves as well as learn about God.

 

[Episkopos]

So you didn't depart from iniquity and add virtue to your faith then when you were born again? That was a specific question, not general.

It took me a long time to realize my level of iniquity. It was a real eye opener. Before that I thought I was special to God. I have always been willing to die where I stand...but my inability to see how I could offend God even while doing things I thought were just and right...

Well there is a lot of failure before one learns about ones own proclivities. It's like I've lived at least three lifetimes...learning something that made even my best appraisals to fall short.

But that took walking in the Spirit over a long period...experiencing the cross AND experiencing tremendous testing. There have been so many revelations from God....but it depends what is being built through it all.
Do you know what a Shulamite is?

Being shalem is being in God's "perfect" intimacy...let in on that close walk. But towards the shulamite God says 4 times...repent. Staying humble and broken means that a living sacrifice should not crawl off the altar.

To whom much is given more is required.

 

[Ziggy]

Staying humble and broken means that a living sacrifice should not crawl off the altar.

I hear this, but I also hear the lifting up and being made whole. Not by anything which we have done, but by his mercy we are healed.
Lev 26:13
I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

Psa 11:7
For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 37:37
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Ecc 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Act 14:8
And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Act 14:9
The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Act 14:10
Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

There is a difference between an upright heart and a heart of arrogance.
I don't think man is capable of walking upright of his own will. I believe it is God's spirit which lifts man up and makes him walk upright.
But when we try to lift ourselves up in righteousness it becomes polluted like taking a chisel to a stone, arrogant. As if our hand upon it can improve it.

Exo 20:25
And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

If we are that altar on which we bring our sacrifices to, then anything we do to try to improve what God has already made perfect and upright by his hand, is flawed. We can't perfect that which God has perfected.

I think the problem is, that we can't see the finished product God has created for us to become. We see the work in progress and try to improve it ourselves.

I hear, walk in it..

2Jo 1:4
I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jo 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

What is it that we should walk "after" .. after as in follow, seek? And then the walk in it. Do it.

Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened.

Deu 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Pro 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Luk 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

I believe being humble is good, but being broken... in what way?

Hugs

 

[David H.]

I don't disagree in principle with this aspect of what Epi says. But when someone calls the fundamentals of the gospel the strong delusion, well then what else am I to think other than he is bringing a blasphemous heresy. That some people mishandle the truth, because of the flesh, doesn't make the truth untrue. By such things we are all tested. And anyone who can't see the pardoxes with certain truths of God, isn't in the Holy Spirit.

Lizbeth,
Try to see things this way.... until we realize the church is and has been broken, we will not and cannot rise above the spirit of the age that has gotten it this way.... The following is a great illustration of this.... I Post this not in to accuse you, but to get people to see what has happened. We are all victims of this in some way or another.

 

[Episkopos]

Lizbeth,
Try to see things this way.... until we realize the church is and has been broken, we will not and cannot rise above the spirit of the age that has gotten it this way.... The following is a great illustration of this.... I Post this not in to accuse you, but to get people to see what has happened. We are all victims of this in some way or another.

I don't like all the yelling...but the point is made. The ego defensiveness of merely "pointing to Jesus" or believing "on" Jesus shows a carnal bent that puts people before God...exploiting God..and then judging others for not being in on the same crime. The thieves do not come in through the narrow door...but try to sneak in another way.

The religious bent of modern evangelicalism is like when the angels made a pact to all rebel together or suffer the shunning, or lack of fellowship they have become accustomed to. A den of thieves can be seen by some as fellowship of some sort.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth,
Try to see things this way.... until we realize the church is and has been broken, we will not and cannot rise above the spirit of the age that has gotten it this way.... The following is a great illustration of this.... I Post this not in to accuse you, but to get people to see what has happened. We are all victims of this in some way or another.

Totally agree that most are preaching and serving a man-centred gospel these days. It's actually a stage of infancy in a way, and many remain stuck there and don't grow out of it. Flesh is ruling where Jesus should be. And this has always been the battle......while Paul lived he battled to keep it from gaining a foothold in the church.......and he warned that after his departure wolves would come in and not spare the flock. So it becomes necessary to leave the churches once we grow to realize they are leading souls astray, if we are to seek the Lord and His way.

But there is always a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an effort to correct the wrongs. Being given the gift of righteousness and not having our sins imputed to us any longer.......will only glut and ruin and spoil those who don't think they really need it and who use this grace and liberty for a license to sin. But for those who know their need and who are actually grateful for what has been imputed to us, and try to follow/obey the Lord in sincerity, it will help us to flourish and is like a well that we draw on. The word of God tests us, so it depends on the soil it has been planted in....we have our part in this. The same "water" that drowned and destroyed the wicked in Noah's day is the same "water" that buoyed Noah and his family above the judgment. His word is a double edged sword. "Ah Lord God you deceived us, you promised us peace, whereas the sword reaches to the soul! " cried the prophet. We are exhorted not to use our liberty for an occasion and license to sin......so it has to be true that we are at liberty, the scriptures say so.....but that liberty will test our hearts.

If you are hungry and thirsty a good meal is a blessing, but if you are already full (or rather think you are) the same meal will only make you glutted and sick. It's not the fault of the food, it's the same food in both instances, but the fault is in the one eating it. The test for a woman who was suspected of being in adultery.....the same drink didn't harm an innocent woman, only those who were guilty....but it was the same drink.

As I'm sure we all understand and which has already been mentioned a few times in these discussions, Jesus came not to save those who were righteous in their own eyes, but sinners, those who come to realize their sin and need of salvation. He is a physician to those who know they need a physician, not to those who consider themselves to be well. You know, Jesus' first coming to earth was wonderful and meant glorious salvation for those in Israel who received Him, but at the same time, that very same coming meant cursing and judgment for those who rejected Him, which happened in 70AD. Doubled edged sword, but the same sword.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't like all the yelling...but the point is made.

LOL,
The only church I ever attended regularly for maybe a year was a Southern Baptist Church.
And the message was HELL and DAMNATION!!! every week, lol.
Funny I got water baptised through that preacher Pastor Corbin.
But that man scared the HELL out of me!

LOL
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Totally agree that most are preaching and serving a man-centred gospel these days. It's actually a stage of infancy in a way, and many remain stuck there and don't grow out of it. Flesh is ruling where Jesus should be. And this has always been the battle......while Paul lived he battled to keep it from gaining a foothold in the church.......and he warned that after his departure wolves would come in and not spare the flock. So it becomes necessary to leave the churches once we grow to realize they are leading souls astray, if we are to seek the Lord and His way.

But there is always a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an effort to correct the wrongs. Being given the gift of righteousness and not having our sins imputed to us any longer.......will only glut and ruin and spoil those who don't think they really need it and who use this grace and liberty for a license to sin. But for those who know their need and who are actually grateful for what has been imputed to us, and try to follow/obey the Lord in sincerity, it will help us to flourish and is like a well that we draw on. The word of God tests us, so it depends on the soil it has been planted in....we have our part in this. The same "water" that drowned and destroyed the wicked in Noah's day is the same "water" that buoyed Noah and his family above the judgment. His word is a double edged sword. "Ah Lord God you deceived us, you promised us peace, whereas the sword reaches to the soul! " cried the prophet. We are exhorted not to use our liberty for an occasion and license to sin......so it has to be true that we are at liberty, the scriptures say so.....but that liberty will test our hearts.

If you are hungry and thirsty a good meal is a blessing, but if you are already full (or rather think you are) the same meal will only make you glutted and sick. It's not the fault of the food, it's the same food in both instances, but the fault is in the one eating it. The test for a woman who was suspected of being in adultery.....the same drink didn't harm an innocent woman, only those who were guilty....but it was the same drink.

As I'm sure we all understand and which has already been mentioned a few times in these discussions, Jesus came not to save those who were righteous in their own eyes, but sinners, those who come to realize their sin and need of salvation. He is a physician to those who know they need a physician, not to those who consider themselves to be well. You know, Jesus' first coming to earth was wonderful and meant glorious salvation for those in Israel who received Him, but at the same time, that very same coming meant cursing and judgment for those who rejected Him, which happened in 70AD. Doubled edged sword, but the same sword.

Made me think of Abraham, when you said need to leave the church once we grow and realize they are leading souls astray.

God called Abram out from his fathers house in the land of UR. When you do some background you find that they were moon worshippers.

1. Ur = "flame"
   1. city in southern Babylonia, city of the Chaldeans, centre of moon worship, home of Abraham's father, Terah, and departure point for the Abraham's migration to Mesopotamia and Canaan

You could say God called Abram out of hell lol.

Abraham would have to take a leap of faith to leave behind everything he ever learned, and trust God to go where he had never journeyed before.
Life is like that. God puts circumstances in your life and tells you it's time to move on.
I never thought I would end up in Maine. But God had a reason for me to be here. And now I see that my father needs me.

Come out of her my people and be not partaker of her sins.

God is still calling today.
It's that leap of faith, that first step, is always the hardest. But once you put one foot in front of the other, the journey's not so bad.

Hugs

 

[Episkopos]

Totally agree that most are preaching and serving a man-centred gospel these days. It's actually a stage of infancy in a way, and many remain stuck there and don't grow out of it. Flesh is ruling where Jesus should be. And this has always been the battle......while Paul lived he battled to keep it from gaining a foothold in the church.......and he warned that after his departure wolves would come in and not spare the flock. So it becomes necessary to leave the churches once we grow to realize they are leading souls astray, if we are to seek the Lord and His way.

While you admit this, your support lies with the superficial statements of those who oppose holiness and the higher walk. i don't think you are seeing your own iniquity in this.

But there is always a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an effort to correct the wrongs. Being given the gift of righteousness and not having our sins imputed to us any longer

This is a false understanding of the gospel...and the real problem that creates permanent babyhood among those who selflishly claim the benefits of Christ.

The gift of righteousness? That is the higher walk that so few are able to tolerate. The irony is that I'm promoting seeking first the kingdom AND the righteousness that is found there as a covering for those who walk in Zion...in the kingdom realm, where there is holiness and intimacy with God.

Not having our sins imputed to us any longer? That is from Luther...and false. It's actually by walking in the perfection of Christ that our sins are in remission...we no longer sin in Christ.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:19

An evangelical will read the above verse and replace "world" for "church" thereby fully corrupting the text. What this verse means is that God acted on behalf of men in spite of their sins and rebellious ways...not ignoring them. And this is NOT a privilege for pew-warmers to sin without fear of judgment for warming a pew. The opposite is true. The church will be judged harder for sins...not less. Iniqiuity makes the truth turn upside down.

.......will only glut and ruin and spoil those who don't think they really need it and who use this grace and liberty for a license to sin.

Of course people will sin....and now, because of a warped doctrine..without any fear of the Lord.

But for those who know their need and who are actually grateful for what has been imputed to us, and try to follow/obey the Lord in sincerity, it will help us to flourish and is like a well that we draw on.

false again. Grateful for having our sins taken care of? That's not the level of holiness...that's a sales scheme of men. It's a totally carnal idea. If you get free hot dogs at the opening of a bank or car dealership, you can appreciate the effort and do business there. But God has no such frivolous ways.

The word of God tests us, so it depends on the soil it has been planted in....we have our part in this. The same "water" that drowned and destroyed the wicked in Noah's day is the same "water" that buoyed Noah and his family above the judgment. His word is a double edged sword. "Ah Lord God you deceived us, you promised us peace, whereas the sword reaches to the soul! " cried the prophet. We are exhorted not to use our liberty for an occasion and license to sin......so it has to be true that we are at liberty, the scriptures say so.....but that liberty will test our hearts.

This part is true. But the liberty is not IN sin...but a liberty FROM sin. A small nuance there.

If you are hungry and thirsty a good meal is a blessing, but if you are already full (or rather think you are) the same meal will only make you glutted and sick. It's not the fault of the food, it's the same food in both instances, but the fault is in the one eating it. The test for a woman who was suspected of being in adultery.....the same drink didn't harm an innocent woman, only those who were guilty....but it was the same drink.

As I'm sure we all understand and which has already been mentioned a few times in these discussions, Jesus came not to save those who were righteous in their own eyes, but sinners, those who come to realize their sin and need of salvation. He is a physician to those who know they need a physician, not to those who consider themselves to be well. You know, Jesus' first coming to earth was wonderful and meant glorious salvation for those in Israel who received Him, but at the same time, that very same coming meant cursing and judgment for those who rejected Him, which happened in 70AD. Doubled edged sword, but the same sword.

Evangelicalism is good only for the first step...an initial conversion, and the apologetics that go along with that. After that it is a disaster.

 

[Ziggy]

This part is true. But the liberty is not IN sin...but a liberty FROM sin. A small nuance there.

I don't believe that is a "small" nuance.
That is at the center of a lot of disagreements.
Specially legalism.

I understand these next verses. But I'm getting caught up in the "authority" .


1Pe 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

What happens when man's ordinances are contrary and are sent not by God for the punishment of the righteous?
The world is upside down right now, and the laws being passed are unholy and filled with hypocrisy.

How do we, and should we submit to these ordinaces?
Jesus told his disciples to do what the pharisees say, but not after their works. Because they put burdens on people and are not willing to lift one finger themselves.
Also to beware the leaven or hypocrisy in what they say.


I have been told I need to obey whoever sits in authority because God put them there.
I'm not so sure. I think men put themselves there, and it's up to us to determine who's master they serve.

I try to keep myself seperate from the world for the most part. I have to live in it, but I don't have to partake of it.
Even though politics is a very serious temptation which I fall into often.
I see the injustice and the evil coming out of all governments, not just ours. It's everywhere.
And how does one stay silent when they are watching the world burn?

pondering..
hugs

 

[Lizbeth]

It took me a long time to realize my level of iniquity. It was a real eye opener. Before that I thought I was special to God. I have always been willing to die where I stand...but my inability to see how I could offend God even while doing things I thought were just and right...

Well there is a lot of failure before one learns about ones own proclivities. It's like I've lived at least three lifetimes...learning something that made even my best appraisals to fall short.

But that took walking in the Spirit over a long period...experiencing the cross AND experiencing tremendous testing. There have been so many revelations from God....but it depends what is being built through it all.
Do you know what a Shulamite is?

Being shalem is being in God's "perfect" intimacy...let in on that close walk. But towards the shulamite God says 4 times...repent. Staying humble and broken means that a living sacrifice should not crawl off the altar.

To whom much is given more is required.

I agree.......on a deeper level, as you are saying, we don't even know the half of it until we grow more and the Lord begins shining His light into the deeper depths of our darkness, then we begin realizing the depths of what is in us...and that sin and iniquity isn't just something that we do, it's also what we fundamentally ARE, in our flesh and carnal nature. So it seems a deeper work is also needed to apprehend more of what God has called us to. This I believe is at least part of the picture of the prophet wading deeper into the river that cleanses deeper and deeper in us until we are in over our heads fully immersed and what that implies. So departing from iniquity needs to happen on more than one level, as I understand it, but it doesn't nullify the first small beginnings of departing from iniquity which came as a gift....it had to, because we were just helpless babies who didn't know our right hand from our left yet.

And I just want to say, "Forgetting what lies behind" is not literal, but it means we aren't to camp out there permanently as babes, but keep growing and journeying onward.....the Psalmist even encourages us to remind ourselves of what the Lord has done in the past to stir up our faith. The Israelites in the wilderness often didnt' have faith for the present, because they kept forgetting, as it were, the tremendous miracle God had wrought in getting them out of Egypt in the past. And how can we testify if we literally forget the past.

 

[Lizbeth]

While you admit this, your support lies with the superficial statements of those who oppose holiness and the higher walk. i don't think you are seeing your own iniquity in this.

There is nothing superficial about it....it's a miracle and gift that cost Jesus everything. I just dont' think we should ignore and despise those small beginning like some appear to be doing. And I sure do not oppose holiness and walking in the Spirit......I do not oppose growing up into the Head which is Christ and whatever that looks like in experience and in fact. I do not oppose the placing of the capstone. I wonder if you understand that the cornerstone and capstone are all of one.....Christ. Why it's so important not to dig out and discard and despise the cornerstone and foundation. And I do not oppose the Lord being faithful to complete the good work that He has begun in us. When I look at myself it looks impossible, and it is easy to become discouraged, but when I look at Jesus, well only with Him is there any hope for hope, so I am still hoping against hope in spite of myself.

Well I don't have time or energy to respond to your every point today.....we disagree on the foundation and other things, that's for sure. But I will mention that fear of the Lord is like the peace that passes understanding. It's not the fear that the world gives, but is something spiritual, not of the flesh. We can have fear of the Lord even though His righteousness is imputed to us....they are not mutually exclusive in truth. God gives us what we need when we need it....sometimes we need His fear, other times we need His encouragement and comfort....and He is the one who knows what we need at any given time or circumstance in His wisdom, perfectly.....He is a perfect Father who neither spoils nor embitters/discourages His children beyond measure. To everything there is a season.

 

[amigo de christo]

There is nothing superficial about it....it's a miracle and gift that cost Jesus everything. I just dont' think we should ignore and despise those small beginning like some appear to be doing. And I sure do not oppose holiness and walking in the Spirit......I do not oppose growing up into the Head which is Christ and whatever that looks like in experience and in fact. I do not oppose the placing of the capstone. I wonder if you understand that the cornerstone and capstone are all of one.....Christ. Why it's so important not to dig out and discard and despise the cornerstone and foundation. And I do not oppose the Lord being faithful to complete the good work that He has begun in us. When I look at myself it looks impossible, and it is easy to become discouraged, but when I look at Jesus, well only with Him is there any hope for hope, so I am still hoping against hope in spite of myself.

Well I don't have time or energy to respond to your every point today.....we disagree on the foundation and other things, that's for sure. But I will mention that fear of the Lord is like the peace that passes understanding. It's not the fear that the world gives, but is something spiritual, not of the flesh. We can have fear of the Lord even though His righteousness is imputed to us....they are not mutually exclusive in truth. God gives us what we need when we need it....sometimes we need His fear, other times we need His encouragement and comfort....and He is the one who knows what we need at any given time or circumstance in His wisdom, perfectly.....He is a perfect Father who neither spoils nor embitters/discourages His children beyond measure. To everything there is a season.

He who omits the dire need to have to beleive on JESUS THE CHRIST but rather simply teaches aspects about a cross
is much like a man who went to the restroom and stood upon the toliet . that man high on pot ..........
and his thinking will not prevail .

 

[Episkopos]

He who omits the dire need to have to beleive on JESUS THE CHRIST but rather simply teaches aspects about a cross
is much like a man who went to the restroom and stood upon the toliet . that man high on pot ..........
and his thinking will not prevail .

Ludicrous as it is simplistic.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't believe that is a "small" nuance.
That is at the center of a lot of disagreements.
Specially legalism.

I understand these next verses. But I'm getting caught up in the "authority" .


1Pe 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

What happens when man's ordinances are contrary and are sent not by God for the punishment of the righteous?
The world is upside down right now, and the laws being passed are unholy and filled with hypocrisy.

How do we, and should we submit to these ordinaces?
Jesus told his disciples to do what the pharisees say, but not after their works. Because they put burdens on people and are not willing to lift one finger themselves.
Also to beware the leaven or hypocrisy in what they say.


I have been told I need to obey whoever sits in authority because God put them there.
I'm not so sure. I think men put themselves there, and it's up to us to determine who's master they serve.

I try to keep myself seperate from the world for the most part. I have to live in it, but I don't have to partake of it.
Even though politics is a very serious temptation which I fall into often.
I see the injustice and the evil coming out of all governments, not just ours. It's everywhere.
And how does one stay silent when they are watching the world burn?

pondering..
hugs

Yes, we are saved from sin, but the bible ALSO says we are saved from wrath through Him. That is the liberty we have now. Freed from the condemnation of the Law and the kind of fear and bondage it brought. And that is the reason we are admonished not to use this liberty and grace as an occasion for the flesh or license for sin (Gal 5:13, Jude 1:4). There would be no need to admonish this otherwise that I can see.....in Jude it says explicitly not to use grace as a license to sin. So the writers were warding off a misconception and careless attitude, wrongly thinking that because we are under grace and no longer condemned we are therefore free to just do as we please with impunity. We are not our own, we have been bought with a price.....and sin has consequences.....one of which, if persisted in, can harden the heart and potentially cause one to fall away. And on God's part His Spirit can be grieved to such an extent that He departs...ichabod.

On the subject of authority, this is how I believe we are instructed........we are not subject to and under the Law or man's laws....as sons we are exempt Jesus said......but so we do not offend unnecessarily we are to submit ourselves of our own free will to them as long as doing so doesn't involve sin. Paul being no longer under Law, still found it expedient to obey certain ordinances of the Law for the sake of the Jews he was trying to get saved, so as to not offend them unnecessarily and put a stumbling block in their way. It is so as to not bring the gospel into disrepute and so we don't give our enemies any unnecessary excuse to find fault as well. Give to Ceasar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's......we are to give tribute and honour to whomever it is due, pay our taxes, and as we see for example how respectful Joseph and Esther and Daniel were to their authorities, according to the ways of those places and times.

But that's under fairly normal circumstances of "all things being equal"....what do we do in cases when some laws are oppressive.....what do we do then? I have been pondering that lately. Eg, in cases of exorbitant taxes in times when people are struggling to afford the most basic necessities and are basically slaves to the government company store so to speak, just working to pay taxes to the government while they and their families can't afford to eat and have a roof over their heads. Would it be okay in God's sight, for example to get a second job and get paid for cash without paying taxes on the extra income, under such circumstances? I wonder if we can apply the law in circumstances like that which allows for the poor to essentially "steal" from fields of crops in order to eat. Not to be rebellious, but just to live for heaven's sake...? This is where the Law shows forth God's mercy and grace and violates ( so to speak) it's own letter. It's against the Law to steal what doesn't belong to you....but on the other hand there is mercy and grace to essentially break the Law under certain circumstances. Just thinking out loud here. I don't believe God is unreasonable or cruel....it appears there can be extenuating circumstances that the Law itself acknowledges in principle. But not to do so out of a rebellious heart, only if it is needful.

There is a case in scripture of a man whose job it was to help an ailing king....that king went into his pagan temple and bowed down to idols.....the man who was helping him asked God to overlook when he had to bow down in front of the idol in tandem with the king in order to do his job and help the king who was partially disabled (or something like that, forget the details).......and the Lord allowed for that. David and his hungry troop violated the Law when they went into God's temple and ate the sacred shewbread when it was a necessity for them. He KNEW His God, His mercy. Esther broke the king's law too when she went in to him unbidden....because of extenuating circumstances.....and the king extended his scepter of grace......she knew her King too, though she didn't take him for granted but still feared him and this was shown in the trouble she took to prepare herself. Nice lesson there for us.......not to take Jesus and His salvation for granted but work out our salvation with fear and trembling, in sincerity, doing our best, giving Him our best.

Oh I know what you mean about politics sister.....in these days of decline it can push our buttons and I often have to remind myself not to get too caught up in it. It is not always easy, I really have guard my heart. Politics is not our battleground as believers...we aren't to be entangled in civil affairs because we've been called to be soldiers in a different kind of war, a spiritual one. If all this strife and folly in government is God sending judgment....well He even told the Israelites to submit to the Babylonians rather than fight them, and it didn't go well for those who fought rather than humble themselves under the mighty hand of God. Goes against the grain of our flesh. (I don't mean we can't do simple practical things like cast a vote or speak sense into a situation, etc, if we think it might help, but we sure need to guard our hearts and remember Whose servants we are.)

I'm sorry to be so rambly and long winded....I'm not young anymore, and some days are better than others, but you brought up subjects worthy of discussing I believe, and really wanted to share these thoughts. Thanks for listening! I hope your Dad is still improving and regaining strength...? And praying for the Lord to keep giving you strength too!

 

[Lizbeth]

He who omits the dire need to have to beleive on JESUS THE CHRIST but rather simply teaches aspects about a cross
is much like a man who went to the restroom and stood upon the toliet . that man high on pot ..........
and his thinking will not prevail .

And there's a lot of it going around unfortunately. You be encouraged brother.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ludicrous as it is simplistic.

What is ludicrous to me is thinking we have "claim" to no benefits from being born again and knowing Christ and being washed in His Blood and having His Spirit dwelling in us. Not that we "claim" them in that attitude, but we see and read and grow in understanding the magnitude of what we have been rescued from and have been brought into and are amazed and humbled by it and grateful. If we have FAITH to believe it.

 

[Ziggy]

I'll be leaving shortly to go visit dad today. Going to bring him some corn chowda.. lol He likes it, I hope he eats it.
I didn't visit yesterday the chores needed attending. But I called last night and they said he was doing well.
Thank you


In the OT there are laws about when you harvest a field, don't glean it thoroughly, but leave what is left behind for the poor.
It's too bad the governments of the world don't follow this rule.
The US is the worst slave master. We bring in foreignors to work our fields because they say no one here wants to do it.
Maybe that's true I don't know. I worked raking blueberries a few summers and had enough money to go to the fair in the fall.
It's the incentives that are lacking. If you tell hungry people they can eat for free the crops they are picking, maybe their belly would put them to work.
But the government and the corporations work together for subsidies and other perks, so they make a propfit from people they bring in to use as slave labour.

When they wake up and realize they are being treated unfairly there will be a revolt. The government to stupid to see this, they tooo short sighted by their own greed.

So much to say and so little time, lol
I be back later and follow up. You put a lot on that plate and I'd like to chew on it with you.

Hugs