WHAT IS PARADISE?

[Doug]

Greetings again Doug,

I believe that Jesus in the form of Jesus' mortal body was raised from the dead, and he was then given immortality. He possesses a substantial physical immortal body. I do not believe that we already possess immortality in the form of an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell immediately after we die and our body is then buried usually in a few days.

Kind regards
Trevor

I asked this...........
So let me get this right
Are you saying we dont have an immortal soul
Jesus will give immortality to the faithful
is this right?

You just gave it a sad. What is wrong with me asking what you are saying? Care to answer the above?

 

[Doug]

I believe that Jesus in the form of Jesus' mortal body was raised from the dead, and he was then given immortality.

I guess you arent responding but let me say this
I think what you are saying is we only get immortal bodies not immortal souls

Jesus was not given an immortality He had immortality......................
[1 Timothy 6:14 KJV] "That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
[1 Timothy 6:15 KJV] "Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
[1 Timothy 6:16 KJV] "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

I think what you are saying is we only get immortal bodies not immortal souls

You seem to be mixed up. The concept of immortal souls is that they consider that each individual already has an immortal soul that lives on in heaven, perhaps your supposed paradise but yours is in the centre of the earth. (what a terrible concept), or hell when the body dies and is buried. We do not at some future time "get" an immortal soul.

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:

This is describing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. He is the only one who has always had immortality, as a quality of His Being. Jesus was a mortal, and after his resurrection he was given immortality.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

Greetings again Doug,

You seem to be mixed up. The concept of immortal souls is that they consider that each individual already has an immortal soul that lives on in heaven, perhaps your supposed paradise but yours is in the centre of the earth. (what a terrible concept), or hell when the body dies and is buried. We do not at some future time "get" an immortal soul.

This is describing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. He is the only one who has always had immortality, as a quality of His Being. Jesus was a mortal, and after his resurrection he was given immortality.

Kind regards
Trevor

Are you saying 1 Timothy 6:14-16 is saying in verses 15 and 16 that both of these verses are about God the Father and not Christ, is this based on newer translations?

I will give the KJV first then the NIV to compare and comment on

[1 Timothy 6:14 KJV] "That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"..................This clearly states who he is talking about. He is talking about Christ Jesus
[1 Timothy 6:15 KJV] "Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"..................Again he is talking about Christ. Which in HIS times which is Christ
[1 Timothy 6:16 KJV] "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."...............WHO only is Christ

[1 Timothy 6:14 NIV] "to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,"
[1 Timothy 6:15 NIV] "which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,"...................this translation says "which God" instead of "his"; there is no justification to do so. "His" is Strongs G2398 which could never be translated as God. This is a blatant corruption of the Word.; It doesn't take a scholar to expose this.

Both the KJV and the NIV say He is king of Kings. The King of Kings can be identified through these verses:
[John 1:29 KJV] "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."..............John Identifies Jesus as the Lamb, which taketh away the sin of the world...................[Revelation 5:6 KJV] "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
[Revelation 5:5 KJV] "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
[Revelation 5:6 KJV] "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
[Revelation 5:7 KJV] "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."....................These verses all point to Christ Jesus as being the slain Lamb. If Jesus is the lamb, then it is He who is King of Kings as affirmed by this next verse; the Lamb is called the King of Kings....................[Revelation 17:14 KJV] "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful."..................Jesus is called the King of Kings, not God the Father.

Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron identifies him as King of Kings:
[Revelation 12:5 KJV] "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne."..................Jesus was to rule the nations....................[Revelation 19:15 KJV] "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
[Revelation 19:16 KJV] "And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."......................from these verses, it can be seen that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. The one who rules with a rod of iron is called King of Kings, Jesus rules with a rod of iron and therefore is King of Kings.........................[Psalm 2:7 KJV] "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
[Psalm 2:8 KJV] "Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession."
[Psalm 2:9 KJV] "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."....................The begotten Son is the Lord Jesus Christ who will break the heathen nations with a rod of iron. It is the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who rules with a rod of iron and is King of Kings, not the Father, but the Son.
[1 Timothy 6:16 NIV] "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.".................The King of Kings is the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore is the one who has immortality.

You have said Christ was only a mortal. You have been exposed to false teaching in saying Christ is a mortal or have been led astray by the newer translations. Christ is the Lord God who came in the flesh; This had to be removed by the newer Bible translators who apparently hold to the doctrine that rejects the deity of Christ.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light

I do not have spare time this morning Australian time to answer in detail. Only God the Father is the one who lives in unapproachable light, and no man has seen or can see him..

You have said Christ was only a mortal.

Yes, he was crucified and died.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

I do not have spare time this morning Australian time to answer in detail. Only God the Father is the one who lives in unapproachable light, and no man has seen or can see him..

I would like you to answer my post#64
I laid out why Jesus is the one who has immortality and is the one spoken of thru 1 Timothy 6:14-16

Jesus was crucified and died. Jesus became flesh

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

I would like you to answer my post#64
I laid out why Jesus is the one who has immortality and is the one spoken of thru 1 Timothy 6:14-16

[1 Timothy 6:16 KJV] "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."...............WHO only is Christ

I suggest that this must apply only to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. He alone "hath" immortality as an essential part of His Being. He has granted Jesus immortality. Jesus, when he returns will manifest God His Father. Jesus has been seen and can be seen.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Where does it say The Father is the lamb?

You are using a faulty deduction.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Can you show me a scripture that says the Father is the lamb

You can apply that type of deduction to ALL the attributes of Jesus. Yahweh is David's Shepherd Psalm 23. Jesus is the Good Shepherd John 10. A proper syllogism takes into consideration all the factors relating to the various items. Psalm 23 can be the thoughts and words of Jesus. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the Shepherd to Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

I see no scripture saying the Father is the Lamb.

I am at a loss as to what you are trying to prove by your confused circuitous reasoning.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

To prove otherwise you need to produce scripture which identifies the Father to be the Lamb in order to be called King of Kings.

You are using a faulty syllogism. I have already given the example of Yahweh is Shepherd, Jesus is Shepherd, but you cannot claim that from this Jesus is the Yahweh of Psalm 23.

Are you suggesting that God the Father is not King of Kings? There are and have been many kings and rulers in the world. Are you suggesting that God the Father is not a King, a Supreme Being with authority and power over and superior to all these mortal rulers?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

If there isnt any scripture (and there isnt) that says the Father is king of Kings then it cant be said he is, that's an opinion

You seem to be ignoring the normal meaning of words. God the Father is the King of all the earth and universe. He is Lord of heaven and earth.
Matthew 11:25 (KJV): At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Jesus entered into his full role of Lord, King of Kings after his death and resurrection, after he was the Lamb of God that would take away the sins of the world.
Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Jesus, the Lamb of God is now Lord and Christ, in other words King of Kings.

Scripture identifies Jesus as being the Shepherd elsewhere

Perhaps you do not understand what I am claiming. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was David's Shepherd. He was not looking for a supposed God the Son as his shepherd.

Perhaps you have never studied syllogisms.
A dachshund is a dog.
An alsatian is a dog.
Therefore a dachshund is an alsatian.

Judging from what you say, you would add another criteria and state
A dachshund is a German dog.
An alsatian is a German dog.
They are not English dogs.
Therefore a dachshund is definitely an Alsatian.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Jesus is God .................[John 1:1 KJV] "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:1 states "the Word was God". It does not say Jesus is God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

[Hebrews 1:8 KJV] "But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Perhaps you should look at the range of usage of the Hebrew word "Elohim" as it is also applied to Angels, human Judges and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Anyway, this is off topic and I am not interested in getting too deeply involved in another Trinitarian vs Biblical Unitarianism. This has all been done before.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Very well, but I will say, I see all the time people discarding what they dont like or doesnt fit their beliefs by pleading the what the Greek says. I can read the english in the KJV who could translate the Greek better than me

I consider that your objection is not valid with respect to what I stated concerning the Hebrew word "Elohim" being applied to Angels, human Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ. Even the KJV reveals that fact when you consider the various passages. In part of the answer Jesus gave to the false accusation of the Pharisees, Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 which speaks of the Unjust Judges who were given the title "Elohim". In other words it is part of the general understanding of what Jesus is teaching here.

John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Kind regards
Trevor