Behold
Well-Known Member
Your verse is the way to heaven, or the way to hell.
No commandments.
NO water.
No church membership
No self effort, or works.
What Is Salvation In The Bible?
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Your verse is the way to heaven, or the way to hell.
No commandments.
NO water.
No church membership
No self effort, or works.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The struggle with sin, is found by trying to keep the law and commandments, believing that this is how you stop sinning.
"The law is the power of sin".
So, sin, is empowered by trying to keep the law and the 10 commandments.
This is the curse of the law.........it empowers your sinning, and then defines you as a sinner.
See that?
That is the CURSE OF THE LAW.
"Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the Law"..
"Christ is the END of the LAW...for Righteousness, to everyone who BELIEVES".
Why? How ?????
Because when you are born again, you are.... "not under the LAW....but under Grace".
"where there is no LAW, there is no SIN..(Transgression)
The born again are "not under the law, but under Grace".
"The Law came by Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ."
My point was simple, Paul was concerned with on going sin in Corinth of which the church repented and sorted.
They were not trying to keep the law and commandments, they were failing to live a life of love in communion with Jesus.
My previous interactions on similar issues is the argument simply ignores things that contradict the held theology.
I remember a point of being yoked to Jesus was bondage, but when it was pointed out that we are to learn from Jesus
and our walk is to be in love and His grace, or we have rejected the gospel the response changed.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:29-30
If grace means there is nothing to learn or grow into why did Jesus say the above?
Jesus was keen to encourage believers to forgive from the heart. His warning was if we do not forgive from the heart we will not be forgiven.
In one sense this is a commandment, in another it is a spiritual warning. If salvation stands purely on a belief without forgiving others from the heart, then Jesus is just contradicting this.
This is because the reality goes deeper, it goes into who we are and what we need to let go to walk in the Kingdom. The Lord knew David and worked with him regarding his dealing with Bathsheba and her husband. It was worked out over time, with tests along the way to check he was still faithful to God and would repent of his behaviour. So following Jesus is not just a one off event but a life choice and a path to walk. It is not earning something, it is becoming something different through the transforming of our lives and behaviour.
And this change Jesus describes as being lights on a hill, driving good works, to show the life and love Jesus brings. And what a glorious life He brings.
God bless you
"Our salvation is our walk with Jesus. We are cleansed and purified so that we can know Him and have His love flowing through our lives to others." .....
"Jesus demonstrated through the cross He is worthy to be trusted and believed in and accepted. "............
****"Theology is often the mechanics of the words but NOT really their content.".........
#11 WalkInLight
Amen to the above TRUTHS you have brought forth, that I have copied!
******"And HYPER GRACE holds sin is NO LONGER the issue it is faith in Jesus or disbelief"....... #15 WalInLight
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This above is a fallacy perpetrated from the father of LIES, and causes folks to think they haver zero responsibility & WON'T be held accountable!
"Jesus demonstrated through the cross He is worthy to be trusted and believed in and accepted. "............
****"Theology is often the mechanics of the words but NOT really their content.".........
#11 WalkInLight
Amen to the above TRUTHS you have brought forth, that I have copied!
******"And HYPER GRACE holds sin is NO LONGER the issue it is faith in Jesus or disbelief"....... #15 WalInLight
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This above is a fallacy perpetrated from the father of LIES, and causes folks to think they haver zero responsibility & WON'T be held accountable!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Salvation is "Grace through Faith".
Jesus died to provide it, and the believer is given what Jesus completed on the Cross.
1.) "The Gift of Salvation"
2.) "The Gift of Righteousness."
So, that is THAT...
And then, there is Discipleship.
Thats the part that we do, that isn't Salvation.
Its the part we do, subsequent to receiving : "The Gift of Salvation".
Salvation is what Jesus completed and our Discipleship is not that pert.
This is that "revelation hurdle" that is the one big one that has to be surmounted, or the believer exists in a un-renewed mind situation where there is no spiritual growth, found.
There is just a lot of talk about it.
A lot of talk about doing works, as if this is spiritual growth.
Let me show you something interesting.
Hebrews 13:9 is where a born again Christian has to LIVE, spiritually, In that requirement.
And if they don't, then the 2nd part of that verse, will happen to them.
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You are right, we are emphasising different things, sensitive to different issues and putting the gospel around our emphasis.
When I was young I wondered what it would be like to fall in love. Then I did. You can know all the theory in the world, but
being in love is an event.
What appealed to me about Jesus was His desire for justice, truth, and empathy. The Lord of all became a man so He could walk with
us, teach us His ways, and hold out the hand of friendship and being together.
The ten lepers who were healed only one came back to say thank you.
What is difficult in man is his heart and his stubbornness to humble his heart and repent. In my life with all I had, it was the hardest
thing I needed to do, to bow the knee, to give up and ask the Lord to help and forgive.
What fascinated me about heaven was the offer of teaching us how to love and openly give and receive it. In a family lost in each
individuals feelings and incapable of showing love or even admitting this was healthy, heaven was a place I wanted to go to.
Now the spiritual, emotional, straightening out of ones heart is heaven come down to earth, the fulfilment of Gods intention for
man. So for me to hear Jesus say if you love me you will follow my commandments, this is not me trying to do something
I am not made for, this is where I want to go, because Gods commandments are music to my ears.
I know believers who will say they know Jesus but the law is condemnation to their souls. Paul would say this is simply this is their conscience telling them of sins they need to repent of. The beginning of Jesus's ministry was John the Baptist baptising Jesus.
The criticism of the Pharisees was their sin and lack of repentance. If any believer is condemned by their conscience, they need to resolve this. A believer cannot walk with Jesus is love does not dwell in them.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence
1 John 3:18-19
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 4:7-8
Love is eternal, it is God, and as children of God with the Holy Spirit, then this love works out.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Do you know what Legalism is?? WalkinLight?
It Is the teaching that doing works is required to be saved or stay saved.
The Legalism emphasis is generally more on staying saved.
A good majority of people who are preaching the Gospel of works, as SALVATION..... are really just teaching that.... ""Jesus saved me, but now i have to keep myself saved". ""Let me show you and talk about all my works im doing so that by doing them, i can stay saved and go to heaven."
See that ?
That is broken faith.
Real faith believes that Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved, and that faith will never try to add their self effort, or commandments or anything at all to the Savior who saved them and keeps them saved.
So, when we give all credit to Christ, alone, for saving us and keeping us saved then we are not involved in trying to do any of that, which if we do, we are now "fallen from Grace", and become a Legalist.
Here is how a Legalist, "fallen from Grace", sounds.
"yes brother, i know that Jesus saved me, and i know that Jesus is the Savior....but now i have to DO DO DO DO DO , and do some more, or i dont stay saved".
See that?
That is "self saving".... that is pretending to have Faith in Christ., and doesn't.
They faith in Self.
Thats : Legalism. "fallen from Grace".
Legalism is following a set of rules for the rules sake.
If anyone reads "If you love me you will obey my commands" as legalism, they have not loved Jesus.
The law is the law not to spoil people, or make them feel guilty, but to shine a light on a need.
For some the need is Jesus and letting Him deal with the guilt and nothing else changes.
For some it is realising we need Jesus in our lives, a real emotional shift in bonding and love, and then they will find they obey the commands
because we are loving people.
Now this is a spiritual miracle. In prisons when people find Jesus and shift, it is obvious, not pretend or trying, they have changed.
It is much harder for conformists in a loving structured family to see how this works other than is a tick box exercise.
Being born again is not a mild claim, it shifts who we are. Letting love into ones heart is hard, because it requires forgiveness and hope in
a cynical world that tricks and betrays people all the time.
I know Jesus's love and sometimes getting overwhelmed by the anger and bitterness and hardness of others can be over powering until
you come back to the cross and hear Him speaking again.
How many truly find this love? The Lord knows but it is not obvious until you spend time with folk.
Many have been hurt and hide their light because they know honesty but its tough to be rejected over who one really is.
But the Lord was real with His friends, and one betrayed Him to His death, but He had learnt how He could handle this so literally we
all could be saved, because we all betrayed Jesus, we all killed Him, and yet He has forgiven us, when we see and walk with Him.
I was talking to my daughter about her dog. She shared how picking up poop with the dog and caring for it would be too much.
And then she fell in love with the dog, and its just what you need to do to continue the relationship which is just so good.
Love changes things, because we were born to be open loving people of the Kingdom, if we see and claim this birth right Jesus
is offering.
God bless you
I had a debate with an individual that lasted years. He was convinced I was a pretend righteous hypocrite, saying the words but they
were lies. Another believer felt speaking the creeds was just brainwashing and they meant nothing.
We are emotional creatures and what we believe is true is linked to our emotional reactions to the words. When you read this sentence you will have a feeling that you agree and like this, or disagree and feel bad about this. It is the emotion that carries the meaning to ourselves, and going through the proposition confirms how we feel. It means I can put a sentence down and two different people will come out with very different responses.
We can be in a prison because of this, where our emotional life is protected from anything that might change it. Jesus came to help us lower the defences, look at how our lives are built and become a new person by being a child up and learning anew.
When you break behaviour down it is our emotional history that makes us who we are. Jesus is telling us He can bring life, bring resolution and open doors of healing and restoration of innocense.
I write this because I realise unless the heart can sing and hope resides there the theological discussions are just that. This is why Stephen got annoyed with the Pharisees, who heard and saw Jesus's claim and resurrection, and the affect this had on the apostles, but their response was blasphemy, stone them.
I find it ironic when a believer said my position was worse than the crime of murder. If he had authority that would have been the end of me. How can someone sharing Jesus's words about love be guilty of murder by sharing this? Any sane person would realise if this is their conclusion they are condemning Jesus to death, which puts them on the wrong side of judgement day.
As people we anchor ourselves to certain positions and this becomes our identity. I suspect this is either with Jesus or not, and it will be revealed when we meet Him face to face.
God bless you
Behold
Well-Known Member
If you are trying to do that to stay saved, then that is : Legalism
If you are trying to do that to BE saved : then that is Legalism
If you are trying to do that to : go to heaven, then that is : Legalism
Behold
Well-Known Member
You keep posting the same similar story, a lot.
Listen.
I dont cling to "certain positions".
I teach Pauline Theology.
Only.
Interesting cause and effect.
Driving a car is driving a car from its departure point to its destination. It is how you get to where you need to go.
If one abandons the journey you never arrive.
When we learn to drive we are still driving, just with more intervention from the teacher.
When we are expert the teacher is more of a passenger.
For me the mistake is to call the journey anything else than the journey.
It is dwelling with Jesus, it is heavens walk that continues into heaven when we die or go to be with Him.
The term straw man argument is constructing a framework and demolishing it, assuming the framework is an
accurate depiction of a situation.
It struck me simply, to walk away from Jesus is to abandon heaven and His ways. The thing that is missed is heaven is not far away, it is here.
And the lostness of man is to not know what is right in front of them every day. Sinners imagine there is this impossible gulf between
God and man, but actually it is about who we are and how we frame everything, even this conversation.
So non-believers want stunning miracles to believe Jesus is there, or angel feathers, or jewels appearing, or being slain in the Spirit,
or a prophet speaking some unusual propositions. And I am not spiritual because I am talking about our transformation and the
renewing of our minds by the Holy Spirit. Worse still non-believers claim God will heal on their command, that there is an epidemic
of one leg shorter than the other which God can cure to show He is real.
And God changing who we are as we walk with Him is heresy and evil earning ones way to heaven.
I do confess I have had to learn the language and ideas of such teaching, and how Jesus fits in with this.
Until one sees the whole counsel of God, it is a jigsaw without a full picture.
I pray we all grow deeper and fuller in Gods love and grace and know His will and ways in our lives day to day.
God bless you
I admit I see things from a defined perspective because it is clear to me.
In discussions with others I have found they mould scripture and interpret it to their view, and change meaning of words to
fit with their interpretation. So repentance is changing ones mind about an issue, not conviction about sin, asking for forgiveness
and desiring to behave differently.
Elijah sinned because he got scared of Jezebel because fear is unbelief, and unbelief in God is the unforgiveable sin in a world where all
sin other than unbelief is forgiven.
There is literally no way such a position is Pauline theology, but dispensationalists and hyper grace followers believe so.
So the sermon on the mount is for jews to convict them of failure and so they see Jesus as the solution.
In one sense after interacting with such folk, the calvanist view some are predestined to see Jesus and some not becomes
more persuasive. More recently I find rewording the out workings of love in the believers life fit with Paul and Jesus's words.
That encourages me, because I am a servant and follower of Jesus, so its testimony to His word bearing fruit in my life.
I am not here to prove anything, just to share what has happened to me with Jesus. We are called to serve one another
and encourage good things in Jesus and walking in His ways.
God bless you
You tapped that one, you are addressing rightly.....
****Hyper grace, Calvinistic Paulinian! *****
Amen.......
Fyi..... White is not defined as a color because it is the sum of all possible colors.
Black is not defined as a color because it is the ABSENCE OF LIGHT, and therefore the absence of color.
There are absolutes in the word of God just as the difference between, black / white as described above!
Light is revealing; darkness obscures the way we think,the way we look @ ourselves, even how we understand the word of God through the Spirit. Therefore we must walk in LIGHT & avoid the darkness!
When we walk in the light, we are that beacon set on a hill, lighting the way for others to see the word of God IN US!
An absolute is a summary of a situation. The boundary point between two position and the context often make things more subtle.
Scripture is full of emotional context language. So we love our neighbour, and show love to all, even our family, except we have to
hate our family in comparison to our love for God. Morality if broken down often comes down to ultimates and ownership. God owns
everything and we are mere stewards of the gift of life, so it is His principles and boundaries we need to follow. If our morality is founded
on self or the group we belong to, we can take what we want, because our desire rise above everyone elses.
I watched a film about cannibals whose heighest ethic was betrayal of an enemy. When the gospel was explained to them Judas was their
hero, until the chiefs son had to be given as the peace child to the other tribe to stop a war. The emotional context showed our true
loyalties and loves that found our lives, and how the Lord addresses them.
Annaniase and Saphara lied to the Holy Spirit about giving all the money for the field to the community. In one sense it was a small thing, done for show, but this was Holy and Gods new work among His people, and such a sin was paid with their lives.
Some have suggested to talk against the Lords anointed leads to judgement. But then such leaders often have a lot of hidden sin which they are not being open about, and unfortunately things will not fair well for them.
God bless you
I have found, in my time here, the responsibility I owe to God for my own words, thoughts & actions are just that mine.
In observing the words & REACTIONS of others it is on them & it is theirs, there is nothing hidden before him.
We cannot all come together with the thought, " I am right & you are wrong"; it must be only that the word of God is righteous & all our words & actions MUST BE IN / OF THE SPIRIT. Having the mind of Christ is a renewing of our minds daily by the Holy Spirit.It is by enlightenment of the word we study that we must walk therein. I can not see the heart nor mind of another but can ONLY judge by their words & reactions to things others say.
In closing, I will state this thought, we ought to examine ourselves daily & be prepared to take up our cross & follow him, and him only !
We all must be teachable & open to listening & learning of the truth!
In observing the words & REACTIONS of others it is on them & it is theirs, there is nothing hidden before him.
We cannot all come together with the thought, " I am right & you are wrong"; it must be only that the word of God is righteous & all our words & actions MUST BE IN / OF THE SPIRIT. Having the mind of Christ is a renewing of our minds daily by the Holy Spirit.It is by enlightenment of the word we study that we must walk therein. I can not see the heart nor mind of another but can ONLY judge by their words & reactions to things others say.
In closing, I will state this thought, we ought to examine ourselves daily & be prepared to take up our cross & follow him, and him only !
We all must be teachable & open to listening & learning of the truth!
Amen
What I have learnt is two layers are major. Who we think we are and how we react and the drivers of these reactions.
The world makes people chaotic and often unpredictable to themselves and others, held together with a cultural form of expression.
I used to think we could be analysed and could work things out. I now realise we need to be remade, driven by Gods love, which
resolves our individual complexity and odd behaviours. It takes time and a walk. Ironically at the start everything is hazy and confusing but as the light dawns and issues resolve it all gets much clearer. Forums unfortunately show peoples current expression of position, but often such expressions are closed and not self contemplative.
The result can be exaggerated conflict and real anger, which had surprised me, but then until you experience you only know your own perspectives.
It is easy for a preacher to speak generically on salvation, and have the listeners agree but actually have different models in their minds.
When you start to ask for definitions, you discover how varied things are, and how coming to faith is more complicated than you can imagine.
It took 3 years for the apostles to see Jesus as the Son of God, which is significant. The revelation is the walk of trust and friendship, that needed to be established. Discipleship is no different, because we are wheat not superficial husks, to be blown away in the wind.
So to think knowing Jesus is a one hit wonder is just so naive, even blind, truly spiritual blind to what the gospels are.
The gospels are friendship and love letters describing how the relationship started and grew. The content that mattered was
the interactions and not their order or even location. Jesus wanted this as His testimony, not a human factual telling of dry
testimony, but of men and women changed and who fell in love with the Lord of Lords. And though it was 3 years, it was enough,
and also too little to be intended or invented by the apostles, which again is testimony to the Lords ways and wisdom.
God bless you
Than you.
You write with much passion & proficiency and as an avid reader it is appreciated.
God's blessings to you & yours
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