What is the New Covenant

[brakelite]

There is much confusion as to exactly what the new covenant is really all about, and the worst result of that confusion is the very popular belief that the new covenant has somehow removed the demands of obedience to the laws of God from Christian thought and practice. So here is a short explanation of how I view the difference between the old and new covenants.

Hebrews tells us that the new covenant was based on better promises. So what promises were wrong in the old covenant? Certainly they could not have been God's promises, so the faulty promises must have been those of the people.
Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The old covenant was faulty (Hebrews 8:7) because of the above promise.(v6). God found fault with them, because they could not keep their promise. The new covenant is certainly different, because it is founded on better promises. Promises this time not of the people who were unable to keep them, but promises of God Who is Himself faultless and well able to accomplish them.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, (please take careful noted of what is going on here...God is finding fault yes, but not with the law, but with the people). and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Israel promised to keep the law. "all that the Lord hath said we will do."
They could not do this however, because they refused to enter into a personal relationship with God. They asked Moses to be their mediator, they did not want to hear God speak to them directly. (Exodus 20:18-21)
They were attempting to obey in their own strength, and had no personal connection with the power that would have given them the enabling. But God calls us to enter into a relationship with Him that He may now fulfill His promises to us.
Through knowing Him; through our direct connection with the source of all power, we may now walk in His love, fulfilling all the requirements of the law, for love is the fulfilling of the law.
Let none say that the new covenant does away with the law. It was not the law that was at fault. It is us. It is not the law that needed to be changed or removed. It is us. It is by God's love dwelling in our hearts that we are able to keep all God's commandments.
Jesus, when asked what is the greatest commandment, quoted Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And the second, Jesus said, was like unto it, and quoted Levit 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Mathew 22:34-40

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus magnified this very same concept, that is by loving one another, we are fulfilling the law. This is known by all of us as the golden rule.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

"Loving your neighbour as yourself" and "doing unto others as ye would have them do unto you" are saying the same thing. And Jesus said that this is the law. He did not say that love cancels out the law, nor abrogates it, does away with it, annuls or blots it out. No. Jesus said that love is the law! It is by love that the law is obeyed, honoured, kept, and fuilfilled. Not the end of the law, but the goal of it.

1 John 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That final passage in case you didn't notice, informs us very succinctly what law love fulfils.

The "law of Christ" is mentioned in only one place. It is mentioned in context with loving your neighbour. So the law of Christ of loving your neighbour is precisely the same law that Christ gave Moses on Sinai. They are interchangeable and synonymous.

 

[DONO]

Hebrews 8:13
(NASB)
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

2 COR 3
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Jesus was speaking in the old covenant. The new covenant began with His death on the cross..

ROM 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[zeke25]

Hebrews 8:13
(NASB)
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

2 COR 3
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Jesus was speaking in the old covenant. The new covenant began with His death on the cross..

ROM 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Dono,

Nice try, but brakelite has already dismissed your Scriptures as unimportant. Look at his very first sentence in his opening post.

Brakelist told you that there was "much confusion". Your Scriptures must be part of that confusion. I mean, if he were to take them to heart, then he must delete his entire post as erroneous. What chance, do you think, is there that he will do that?

Brakelite is going to push his agenda, no matter how many Scriptures he must ignore, clip from the Bible, or redefine. He is not here to learn. He is here to cause "much confusion" for the weak and immature.

But thanks for trying anyway Dono.

Zeke25

There is much confusion as to exactly what the new covenant is really all about, and the worst result of that confusion is the very popular belief that the new covenant has somehow removed the demands of obedience to the laws of God from Christian thought and practice. So here is a short explanation of how I view the difference between the old and new covenants.

Hebrews tells us that the new covenant was based on better promises. So what promises were wrong in the old covenant? Certainly they could not have been God's promises, so the faulty promises must have been those of the people.
Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Brakelite,

Come on Brakelite. Do you really expect us to believe that the Hebrews were making a promise that they then broke and this was the promise that 2 Co 3:6-11 was speaking about? Please, explain how 2 Cor. fits into your exegesis. And when you are through with that there are plenty more Scriptures from other books of the Bible that will need to be addressed as well.

Zeke25

 

[DONO]

Sorry. New guy here.

 

[zeke25]

Sorry. New guy here.

DONO,

Hey, don't take me wrong. You're doing a great job so far. Make up your own mind about brakelite - he might listen to you. I just could't past up the chance to needle him for a moment. After dealing with so many on this blog, I needed a little levity for a minute. But if he comes back with a challenging answer, I'll have to dig deeper with my next response. He might even challenge you. Be ready. Have a nice day.

Zeke25

 

[brakelite]

Hebrews 8:13
(NASB)
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hi Dono. Notwithstanding Zeke's attempt to pillory any response I may have to your post, here goes anyway. Nowhere in my opening post did I, nor was it my intention to, claim that the old covenant was anything other than 'old'. Certainly, as is clear throughout the NT, (and in portions of the OT such as the promise in Jeremiah, ) we are living under the ministry of the new covenant. No argument there, no debate.

2 COR 3
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed. Why? Because by the law comes the knowledge of sin! Now Romans 8:1 gives us the NT solution to this. 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit'. Our freedom from condemnation does not come because the law has been removed, but rather because through Calvary we are now dead to the law. The ministry of death which the law brings to sinners has no more claim on Christians because Christ died in our place. The Father considers our just death as having been included in His Son's. The law however remains. It is the ministry of condemnation and its attendant glory that for the Christian, has faded away. And as you quoted Romans 8:2...we are free from the law of sin and death...now verse 3... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:....

Now Dono the reason why all this has taken place on our behalf comes in the next verse for here comes the ministry of righteousness spoken of in 2 Cor. 3:9...continuing in Romans 8...4:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How is the righteousness of the law fulfilled in Christians? Through the new covenant promise that God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Thus it is not the law itself that has changed, but the ministry of death has changed to the ministry of righteousness. From condemning the sinner the law becomes a heart attitude of the righteous. How can the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us if that same law is no longer in effect?

Yes, Jesus spoke in the old covenant. However, I would not dare claim that for that reason we may now discount everything Jesus said prior to the cross. Like for example,

Matt. 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt. 22:34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or is it that love for our neighbor being the law and the prophets an OT concept now 'fading away'.

 

[zeke25]

Hi Dono. Notwithstanding Zeke's attempt to pillory any response I may have to your post, here goes anyway. Nowhere in my opening post did I, nor was it my intention to, claim that the old covenant was anything other than 'old'. Certainly, as is clear throughout the NT, (and in portions of the OT such as the promise in Jeremiah, ) we are living under the ministry of the new covenant. No argument there, no debate.


Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed. Why? Because by the law comes the knowledge of sin! Now Romans 8:1 gives us the NT solution to this. 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit'. Our freedom from condemnation does not come because the law has been removed, but rather because through Calvary we are now dead to the law. The ministry of death which the law brings to sinners has no more claim on Christians because Christ died in our place. The Father considers our just death as having been included in His Son's. The law however remains. It is the ministry of condemnation and its attendant glory that for the Christian, has faded away. And as you quoted Romans 8:2...we are free from the law of sin and death...now verse 3... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:....

Now Dono the reason why all this has taken place on our behalf comes in the next verse for here comes the ministry of righteousness spoken of in 2 Cor. 3:9...continuing in Romans 8...4:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How is the righteousness of the law fulfilled in Christians? Through the new covenant promise that God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Thus it is not the law itself that has changed, but the ministry of death has changed to the ministry of righteousness. From condemning the sinner the law becomes a heart attitude of the righteous. How can the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us if that same law is no longer in effect?

Yes, Jesus spoke in the old covenant. However, I would not dare claim that for that reason we may now discount everything Jesus said prior to the cross. Like for example,

Matt. 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt. 22:34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or is it that love for our neighbor being the law and the prophets an OT concept now 'fading away'.

brakelite & dono,

I apologize for my moment of folly in ridiculing brakelite. It was not the right thing for me to do.

However, I will be back with a more serious response.

Zeke25

 

[logabe]

Hi Dono. Notwithstanding Zeke's attempt to pillory any response I may have to your post, here goes anyway. Nowhere in my opening post did I, nor was it my intention to, claim that the old covenant was anything other than 'old'. Certainly, as is clear throughout the NT, (and in portions of the OT such as the promise in Jeremiah, ) we are living under the ministry of the new covenant. No argument there, no debate.


Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed. Why? Because by the law comes the knowledge of sin! Now Romans 8:1 gives us the NT solution to this. 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit'. Our freedom from condemnation does not come because the law has been removed, but rather because through Calvary we are now dead to the law. The ministry of death which the law brings to sinners has no more claim on Christians because Christ died in our place. The Father considers our just death as having been included in His Son's. The law however remains. It is the ministry of condemnation and its attendant glory that for the Christian, has faded away. And as you quoted Romans 8:2...we are free from the law of sin and death...now verse 3... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:....

Now Dono the reason why all this has taken place on our behalf comes in the next verse for here comes the ministry of righteousness spoken of in 2 Cor. 3:9...continuing in Romans 8...4:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How is the righteousness of the law fulfilled in Christians? Through the new covenant promise that God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Thus it is not the law itself that has changed, but the ministry of death has changed to the ministry of righteousness. From condemning the sinner the law becomes a heart attitude of the righteous. How can the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us if that same law is no longer in effect?

Yes, Jesus spoke in the old covenant. However, I would not dare claim that for that reason we may now discount everything Jesus said prior to the cross. Like for example,

Matt. 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt. 22:34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or is it that love for our neighbor being the law and the prophets an OT concept now 'fading away'.

I couldn't said it better. Good job.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[zeke25]

Hi Dono. Notwithstanding Zeke's attempt to pillory any response I may have to your post, here goes anyway. Nowhere in my opening post did I, nor was it my intention to, claim that the old covenant was anything other than 'old'. Certainly, as is clear throughout the NT, (and in portions of the OT such as the promise in Jeremiah, ) we are living under the ministry of the new covenant. No argument there, no debate.


Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed. Why? Because by the law comes the knowledge of sin! Now Romans 8:1 gives us the NT solution to this. 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit'. Our freedom from condemnation does not come because the law has been removed, but rather because through Calvary we are now dead to the law. The ministry of death which the law brings to sinners has no more claim on Christians because Christ died in our place. The Father considers our just death as having been included in His Son's. The law however remains. It is the ministry of condemnation and its attendant glory that for the Christian, has faded away. And as you quoted Romans 8:2...we are free from the law of sin and death...now verse 3... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:....

Now Dono the reason why all this has taken place on our behalf comes in the next verse for here comes the ministry of righteousness spoken of in 2 Cor. 3:9...continuing in Romans 8...4:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How is the righteousness of the law fulfilled in Christians? Through the new covenant promise that God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Thus it is not the law itself that has changed, but the ministry of death has changed to the ministry of righteousness. From condemning the sinner the law becomes a heart attitude of the righteous. How can the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us if that same law is no longer in effect?

Yes, Jesus spoke in the old covenant. However, I would not dare claim that for that reason we may now discount everything Jesus said prior to the cross. Like for example,

Matt. 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt. 22:34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or is it that love for our neighbor being the law and the prophets an OT concept now 'fading away'.

Hi Brakelite,

brakelite said: Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed.

Zeke25 replied: You are speaking of 2 Co 3:6-11. You have tried to parse the “work or purpose” of the Law, from the Law itself, and you are using 2 Co 3 to prove your point. You are calling the “work or purpose” of the Law the “Ministry of Death”. Then you claim that the “Law” is separate from and different from its “work or purpose”. This is double-speak.

Let’s look at this same scenario in another example.

I hire a man to dig a ditch for me. While he is digging Christ shows up. Christ says to the man, I’ll finish this job for you. When Christ finished digging the ditch he dismisses the man and tells him he is no longer needed, the job is done. So, the man goes away. Work is honorable and there is glory in it, but a completed job has greater glory. The whole purpose of the hired man was to complete a job. But the job was too big, he never would have completed it if Christ hadn’t come along and done it for him.

Then my foreman shows up and it very upset. He says to Christ, “Where is the man hired to dig the ditch?” Christ said, I fulfilled his requirements, I finished the ditch, the job is done, he was no longer needed, and I dismissed him. The foreman was wroth. He sought out the man and brought him back and told him to get back to work. But he had no work to get back to. So, he just started digging useless ditches all over the place. The foreman, having no understanding, was very happy. The foreman looked at Christ and said, “See, now we don’t need You!” You can go away, I have my workman back.


Brakelite, you have a fair grasp on that which you explained afterward. However, our requirement to keep the Law is gone. It has already been kept for us, because we were unable to keep it ourselves. If I break the Law everyday by accident or ignorance, I am forgiven because Christ fulfilled the requirements for me. The Law, not just its “work or purpose”, has been nailed to His tree. There is no room for a new covenant, while the old covenant is still in effect. New wine cannot be poured into old wineskins. See also Hebrews 8:12-13.

Zeke25

 

[brakelite]

Hi Zeke. I haven't suggested, and I am sorry if I have intimated in any way such a suggestion, that our priority or goal in life as either a means to salvation, or even a maintenance of salvation, is to 'obey the law'. As your post said, such an attempt to attain to righteousness is doomed to failure.
However, I still believe the law to be still standing. But the goal or focus for the Christian ought not be the law, but rather our relationship with Jesus. Abiding in Him must be our priority. Seeking His kingdom, and His righteousness. And it is as we grow closer to Him that we take upon ourselves His character. We become partakers of His nature. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. Our obedience or law-keeping is in fact a fruit of our relationship with Christ. As I said in my previous post, love is the fulfilling of the law. Love is the very first virtue mentioned in the list of fruit of the Spirit. So our law-keeping....our steadfast reluctance to commit adultery, theft, murder, covetousness etc etc, comes not from our own independent self-willed determination, but a natural result of becoming like our Master and Savior. Like Jesus says, "without Me ye can do nothing". It is "by beholding we become changed" ...changed into His image and likeness...obedient law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of God. Not through our own efforts, but by God's love infused into our hearts by the active work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[zeke25]

Hi Zeke. I haven't suggested, and I am sorry if I have intimated in any way such a suggestion, that our priority or goal in life as either a means to salvation, or even a maintenance of salvation, is to 'obey the law'. As your post said, such an attempt to attain to righteousness is doomed to failure.
However, I still believe the law to be still standing. But the goal or focus for the Christian ought not be the law, but rather our relationship with Jesus. Abiding in Him must be our priority. Seeking His kingdom, and His righteousness. And it is as we grow closer to Him that we take upon ourselves His character. We become partakers of His nature. Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. Our obedience or law-keeping is in fact a fruit of our relationship with Christ. As I said in my previous post, love is the fulfilling of the law. Love is the very first virtue mentioned in the list of fruit of the Spirit. So our law-keeping....our steadfast reluctance to commit adultery, theft, murder, covetousness etc etc, comes not from our own independent self-willed determination, but a natural result of becoming like our Master and Savior. Like Jesus says, "without Me ye can do nothing". It is "by beholding we become changed" ...changed into His image and likeness...obedient law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of God. Not through our own efforts, but by God's love infused into our hearts by the active work of the Holy Spirit.

Hi brakelite,

brakelite said: As your post said, such an attempt to attain to righteousness is doomed to failure.

Zeke25 replies: You are splitting hairs. You claim that you do not obtain righteousness by the Law, but then you attempt to retain righteousness by the Law. Gal. 5:4-5 addresses both situations:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. After your salvation, if you continue to make obeying the Law your goal to continued righteousness, then you have fallen from grace and have no salvation at all. Besides, this Law is described by the Scriptures as weak and incomplete. Christ introduced us to new and better requirements, requirements of the heart, not of the letter. Read of His new requirements in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. As pointed out by another poster in this forum already, adultery was not permitted in the 10 Commandments, but in the new and improved version one should not even think about adultery much less do it. By following the Law you have set a lower and incomplete standard for yourself.

I have a question for you. Who was the Law given to?

Zeke25

 

[brakelite]

Zeke, you speak of righteousness, and also the sermon on the mount, and I agree with you in part, but let me take things somewhat further. for I believe you misunderstand how righteousness relates to the gospel. Whatever righteousness is, it comes highly recommended.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

First point we must all realize, is that the ‘righteousness’, referred to above is Christ’s own righteousness. Not our own, not someone elses, not the church’s. Isaiah said our own righteousness is worthless, so what we must answer is the question “what is Christ’s righteousness?” For it is that righteousness that we must hunger and thirst for, it is that righteousness we must seek for on equal priority to His kingdom.
We all, as professing Christians, have accepted Christ’s kingdom. We have all acknowledged His propitiation and atoning death. But His righteousness? What is that? And how do we get it?
Paul answers both questions here…

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So the Galatians were thinking that they could be justified by following the law, but Paul says justification must be by faith. And he equates justification with righteousness. The cross, the shedding of blood, justifies us. Throughout Biblical history the sacrifice of the animal and the shedding of blood removed sin from being as impediment in the relationship and a wall between God and man. We are ‘accounted’ righteous in the sight of a holy God, and we then have free access to the throne of grace.
But did God desire that Israel continually sin because they had a “get out of jail free card” grazing in the back paddock? Not at all. In fact several times God showed His great displeasure in the rivers of blood that constantly flowed from the temple altar.

Isaiah 1:10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

What is going on here? It was in Eden that God Himself set up the sacrificial system. And later a whole range of various annual festive sabbaths and holy days and services and sacrifices for the express purpose of gaining forgiveness, yet here is God saying He wants them to stop? What’s missing? Isaiah in the next few verses gives the answer. And after, John the Baptist confirms this.

16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Matthew 3:7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Phil 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom. 13:10
Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

It has been said that we take but two things to heaven with us from this world. The souls we have have helped save through our witness, and our characters. Eternity is dependent upon what characters we develop now, whether Christ’s or the prince of this world.

Eph.4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,….22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Thus righteousness is both imputed, (justification) and imparted (sanctification.) Both are essential, both are Christ’s, and both can be ours if we have but faith.

Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[zeke25]

Zeke, you speak of righteousness, and also the sermon on the mount, and I agree with you in part, but let me take things somewhat further. for I believe you misunderstand how righteousness relates to the gospel. Whatever righteousness is, it comes highly recommended.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

First point we must all realize, is that the ‘righteousness’, referred to above is Christ’s own righteousness. Not our own, not someone elses, not the church’s. Isaiah said our own righteousness is worthless, so what we must answer is the question “what is Christ’s righteousness?” For it is that righteousness that we must hunger and thirst for, it is that righteousness we must seek for on equal priority to His kingdom.
We all, as professing Christians, have accepted Christ’s kingdom. We have all acknowledged His propitiation and atoning death. But His righteousness? What is that? And how do we get it?
Paul answers both questions here…

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So the Galatians were thinking that they could be justified by following the law, but Paul says justification must be by faith. And he equates justification with righteousness. The cross, the shedding of blood, justifies us. Throughout Biblical history the sacrifice of the animal and the shedding of blood removed sin from being as impediment in the relationship and a wall between God and man. We are ‘accounted’ righteous in the sight of a holy God, and we then have free access to the throne of grace.
But did God desire that Israel continually sin because they had a “get out of jail free card” grazing in the back paddock? Not at all. In fact several times God showed His great displeasure in the rivers of blood that constantly flowed from the temple altar.

Isaiah 1:10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

What is going on here? It was in Eden that God Himself set up the sacrificial system. And later a whole range of various annual festive sabbaths and holy days and services and sacrifices for the express purpose of gaining forgiveness, yet here is God saying He wants them to stop? What’s missing? Isaiah in the next few verses gives the answer. And after, John the Baptist confirms this.

16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Matthew 3:7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Phil 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom. 13:10
Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

It has been said that we take but two things to heaven with us from this world. The souls we have have helped save through our witness, and our characters. Eternity is dependent upon what characters we develop now, whether Christ’s or the prince of this world.

Eph.4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,….22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Thus righteousness is both imputed, (justification) and imparted (sanctification.) Both are essential, both are Christ’s, and both can be ours if we have but faith.

Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

brakelite,

I guess I missed your point. I see no discussion of that which you began with: No ministry of death and no keeping the Law. So, I must ask, what is your point? Also, I still asked, who do you say the Law was given to?

Zeke25

 

[brakelite]

Hi Brakelite,

brakelite said: Please read the above quote again, and carefully. Ask yourself this...what is it precisely that the scripture says is fading away? Another question could be, what precisely does the glory belong to? Is not the answer to both questions the ministry of death? Verse 9 confirms this, calling it the ministry of condemnation. It is the ministry, or the work or purpose, of the law that has the glory, and which fades away. It is the ministry or work of righteousness that has more glory. It is not the law itself that the author is speaking of, it is the effect that the law had on those to whom it was revealed.

Zeke25 replied: You are speaking of 2 Co 3:6-11. You have tried to parse the “work or purpose” of the Law, from the Law itself, and you are using 2 Co 3 to prove your point. You are calling the “work or purpose” of the Law the “Ministry of Death”. Then you claim that the “Law” is separate from and different from its “work or purpose”. This is double-speak.

Let’s look at this same scenario in another example.

I hire a man to dig a ditch for me. While he is digging Christ shows up. Christ says to the man, I’ll finish this job for you. When Christ finished digging the ditch he dismisses the man and tells him he is no longer needed, the job is done. So, the man goes away. Work is honorable and there is glory in it, but a completed job has greater glory. The whole purpose of the hired man was to complete a job. But the job was too big, he never would have completed it if Christ hadn’t come along and done it for him.

Then my foreman shows up and it very upset. He says to Christ, “Where is the man hired to dig the ditch?” Christ said, I fulfilled his requirements, I finished the ditch, the job is done, he was no longer needed, and I dismissed him. The foreman was wroth. He sought out the man and brought him back and told him to get back to work. But he had no work to get back to. So, he just started digging useless ditches all over the place. The foreman, having no understanding, was very happy. The foreman looked at Christ and said, “See, now we don’t need You!” You can go away, I have my workman back.


Brakelite, you have a fair grasp on that which you explained afterward. However, our requirement to keep the Law is gone. It has already been kept for us, because we were unable to keep it ourselves. If I break the Law everyday by accident or ignorance, I am forgiven because Christ fulfilled the requirements for me. The Law, not just its “work or purpose”, has been nailed to His tree. There is no room for a new covenant, while the old covenant is still in effect. New wine cannot be poured into old wineskins. See also Hebrews 8:12-13.

Zeke25

Hi Zeke. I do not think it is 'double-speak' as you put it, to differentiate between the law, and the use for which God puts it. Even Paul said that there are different ways one may use the law, 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; he continues to explain that the law is set for sinners, for those who transgress the law. Paul does not say that the law for the righteous has been done away,he simply means that it no longer has condemning value. The ministry of death, the condemnation, is now of no effect. And yes, because as you said, it has been kept for us. Its demands have been fully met in every aspect through the life and death of Jesus. Its righteous demands of right living has been kept on our behalf in Christ's life, and the consequences of the law's transgression has been fully met through His death. Thus when I appear before God's throne to answer for my life, regardless of how well I may have been keeping the law since becoming a Christan, I will still need the advocacy and mediatorial priesthood of my Savior to plead my cause.
But Zeke, I would ask you a very serious question. To what end the life and death of Jesus? What was the purpose of all that Christ accomplished? What purpose the gospel? Was it solely to result in our being given eternal life, or was there a deeper purpose? Any ideas? I will give you an opportunity to ponder on that question before I continue.

 

[zeke25]

Hi Zeke. I do not think it is 'double-speak' as you put it, to differentiate between the law, and the use for which God puts it. Even Paul said that there are different ways one may use the law, 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; he continues to explain that the law is set for sinners, for those who transgress the law. Paul does not say that the law for the righteous has been done away,he simply means that it no longer has condemning value. The ministry of death, the condemnation, is now of no effect. And yes, because as you said, it has been kept for us. Its demands have been fully met in every aspect through the life and death of Jesus. Its righteous demands of right living has been kept on our behalf in Christ's life, and the consequences of the law's transgression has been fully met through His death. Thus when I appear before God's throne to answer for my life, regardless of how well I may have been keeping the law since becoming a Christan, I will still need the advocacy and mediatorial priesthood of my Savior to plead my cause.
But Zeke, I would ask you a very serious question. To what end the life and death of Jesus? What was the purpose of all that Christ accomplished? What purpose the gospel? Was it solely to result in our being given eternal life, or was there a deeper purpose? Any ideas? I will give you an opportunity to ponder on that question before I continue.

brakelite,

It feels as if you are trying to take us in circles. I have work to do. You ignore anything I give you that merits your attention and response. You are becoming a broken record. Sorry I'm not buying it. Catch you some other time. The children are hungry and they are not being fed while I'm dialoging with you.

Zeke25