What is the purpose of this practice?

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Sweet Pea

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I've been researching the Catholic Church out of curiosity and I have had many questions. There is one that I just can't seem to get an answer to. Why do people kiss bones of dead saints? I saw a skull on a platter (or pillow) and I googled it to find out about it, which led me to another site that showed other saints dressed up in jewels and posed. I have to admit I was bothered by the pictures that I saw. What is that all about?

Below are the links I saw. Just a heads up... the pics in these sites made me sick to my stomach, so don't click if you think it will happen to you. For those who choose not to click, the first one shows pics of skeletons that have been dressed up in jewels and displayed (not trying to be funny, but it reminded me of the ride Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland, but these are real).

The second link is even more disturbing. It has a skull that has a golden mask and is paraded around in front of church members in a gold and glass case. It also shows dead catholic saints being displayed for church members to venerate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art....-explorer.html

Catholic Veneration Of The Dead - Warning !!! Graphic Images Shown - Religion - Nairaland

I also saw other pictures where bones and skulls are on display in catholic churches and one even has a chandelier made out of bones and skulls.

What is the purpose of this? More importantly, is this forbidden in the Bible? I've heard the argument that Elisha's bones support this practice (or expecting miracles from touching the bones or an object that touched it). I also heard someone mention the woman who touched Jesus' hem to be healed. Also how people were healed by Peter's shadow? A cloth? Does this make the practice okay or not?
 

Forsakenone

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More importantly, is this forbidden in the Bible?
Your hooked.

Next God can even do create anything right, look around.... Then comes sin, it not God's but the sinner [your brother and sisters] then and another soul is lost to the darkness of within....

Why does the Almighty GOD need a book to talk to you? He gave us that book that his servants could teach men and women how to read and write so we could go forth and seek his face by learning and working and enjoying life. That you might have life and life more abundantly... It is faith that pleases God, straight from your pure soul that lets you feel his Word, his Power, His Glory, or give it to tree of knowledge of good and evil. [paper from tree] Would that book make you wise? was it pleasant to look at? Watch this post get yanked.
 

FHII

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Sweet Pea said:
I don't really know what you mean?
I don't know what he means either.

I don't know why Catholics do that either. The first thing I thought of was Elisha's bones. Its in the Bible that a dead soldier was thrown into Elisha's tomb and was brought back to life when he landed on Elisha's bones. But that's really all I can think of.... When the woman touched the hem of Jesus' garment and when Peter did those things they were alive. Then again, Jesus also rubbed mud in people's eyes, spit on their tongue and also simply spoke the word and healed people.
 

Sweet Pea

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FHII said:
I don't know what he means either.

I don't know why Catholics do that either. The first thing I thought of was Elisha's bones. Its in the Bible that a dead soldier was thrown into Elisha's tomb and was brought back to life when he landed on Elisha's bones. But that's really all I can think of.... When the woman touched the hem of Jesus' garment and when Peter did those things they were alive. Then again, Jesus also rubbed mud in people's eyes, spit on their tongue and also simply spoke the word and healed people.
So do you think the story of Elisha's bones justifies this practice? Good point on how Jesus and Peter were alive for these incidences.
 

FHII

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Sweet Pea said:
So do you think the story of Elisha's bones justifies this practice? Good point on how Jesus and Peter were alive for these incidences.
No, but then again, I'm not Catholic. I'm surprised one hasn't spoken up at this point to give the Catholic point of view.

The incident in question is very brief (but powerful... he did raise from the dead!) and can be found in 2 Kings 13:21. I was recalling the incident from memory, and I got it wrong when I said he was a soldier. Never says that, but he very well could have been. Overall, I really wonder if it was done for the benefit of the dead man over to show the power of God's annointed man (Elisha). But that is getting off on a tangent.

I've heard that touching or looking at such bones and relics lessens your time in purgatory. I'm not a believer in purgatory, so I wouldn't believe it for that purpose. If purgatory existed (and I actually think it did to some extent) it was done away with when Christ rose from the dead. But again, I'm not Catholic. I heard that from wathing the movie "Luther", which is historically based and pretty accurate according to one book I've read about Martin Luther.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I would consider kissing old bones strange and bizarre .... I just wonder what people think of me .... I pretend to eat the body of Jesus and drink his blood once a month. :)
 

KingJ

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Sweet Pea said:
I've been researching the Catholic Church out of curiosity and I have had many questions. There is one that I just can't seem to get an answer to. Why do people kiss bones of dead saints? I saw a skull on a platter (or pillow) and I googled it to find out about it, which led me to another site that showed other saints dressed up in jewels and posed. I have to admit I was bothered by the pictures that I saw. What is that all about?

Below are the links I saw. Just a heads up... the pics in these sites made me sick to my stomach, so don't click if you think it will happen to you. For those who choose not to click, the first one shows pics of skeletons that have been dressed up in jewels and displayed (not trying to be funny, but it reminded me of the ride Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland, but these are real).

The second link is even more disturbing. It has a skull that has a golden mask and is paraded around in front of church members in a gold and glass case. It also shows dead catholic saints being displayed for church members to venerate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art....-explorer.html

Catholic Veneration Of The Dead - Warning !!! Graphic Images Shown - Religion - Nairaland

I also saw other pictures where bones and skulls are on display in catholic churches and one even has a chandelier made out of bones and skulls.

What is the purpose of this? More importantly, is this forbidden in the Bible? I've heard the argument that Elisha's bones support this practice (or expecting miracles from touching the bones or an object that touched it). I also heard someone mention the woman who touched Jesus' hem to be healed. Also how people were healed by Peter's shadow? A cloth? Does this make the practice okay or not?
History behind the creation of cathedrals is very interesting. Every cathedral had some artefact to draw pilgrims for much needed funding. Today this is hardly needed. I guess it seems like some still retain their artefacts / bones of saints. Interesting.

It is wrong to judge the Catholic church harshly on this. Their 'infallible dogma' does not permit the worship of saints. Only Jesus and God may be worshipped / idolized. Saints are simply to be respected. Prayer is never to them bypassing God, it is supposed to be seen as 'with them' to God. They may uplift saints a tad beyond us mere common Christians, but that is not a grave issue. It will be the same in heaven.

The way I see it is every denomination has their groups of embarrassments :D. Human nature just wants idols / God to be tangible.
 

Mungo

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FHII said:
No, but then again, I'm not Catholic. I'm surprised one hasn't spoken up at this point to give the Catholic point of view.
I (for one) have only just come across this thread.

Why do we honour the relics of dead Saints?

Many people go to the grave of a loved on to honour and remember them They could do this in the comfort of their home but somehow there seems to be more of a connection, and perhaps a sacred moment, from being in the presence of their remains.

It is the same with relics of the saints. Several years ago my wife and I stayed in County Durham in North East England. We took the opportunity to visit the 900 year old Durham Cathedral and in particular the site of the bones of Saint Cuthbert behind the main altar. There was something special to stand there near the bones of that great 7th century Celtic Saint who did much to help evangelise North Eastern England. Later we went to the site of the monastery where Saint Bede, another 7th century Celtic Saint, lived and wrote. Wandering around the ruins connected us to these men who are our spiritual ancestors.

Several hundred years ago people didn’t move around much, and graveyards were around the village church not in separate places. People in the village going to worship God would probably pass by the graves of many of their ancestors, reminding them of their heritage, of those who went before them.

It’s the same with us. Relics of Saints remind us of those who trod the path of holiness before us, and often sacrificed their lives to pass on their precious inheritance to us. They connect us back through the ages to the apostles and to Jesus.

Bones beneath an altar?
John saw the souls of Saints under the altar in Rev 6:9..
All permanent altars have a small relic of a Saint embedded in a small stone which is then encased in the altar. It's not visible.

I agree some of the examples may seem a bit OTT to our modern taste.
 

Sweet Pea

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Mungo said:
I (for one) have only just come across this thread.

Why do we honour the relics of dead Saints?

Many people go to the grave of a loved on to honour and remember them They could do this in the comfort of their home but somehow there seems to be more of a connection, and perhaps a sacred moment, from being in the presence of their remains.

It is the same with relics of the saints. Several years ago my wife and I stayed in County Durham in North East England. We took the opportunity to visit the 900 year old Durham Cathedral and in particular the site of the bones of Saint Cuthbert behind the main altar. There was something special to stand there near the bones of that great 7th century Celtic Saint who did much to help evangelise North Eastern England. Later we went to the site of the monastery where Saint Bede, another 7th century Celtic Saint, lived and wrote. Wandering around the ruins connected us to these men who are our spiritual ancestors.

Several hundred years ago people didn’t move around much, and graveyards were around the village church not in separate places. People in the village going to worship God would probably pass by the graves of many of their ancestors, reminding them of their heritage, of those who went before them.

It’s the same with us. Relics of Saints remind us of those who trod the path of holiness before us, and often sacrificed their lives to pass on their precious inheritance to us. They connect us back through the ages to the apostles and to Jesus.

Bones beneath an altar?
John saw the souls of Saints under the altar in Rev 6:9..
All permanent altars have a small relic of a Saint embedded in a small stone which is then encased in the altar. It's not visible.

I agree some of the examples may seem a bit OTT to our modern taste.
Thanks for your response. I definitely have no problem with what you are describing. The photos just didn't seem like what you are describing. I'm trying to understand, but I don't quite. I understand what YOU are saying. Just not the rest of it... can you explain the skull with the golden mask? Also, why display the bodies for everyone to see instead of putting them in a non see-through container? What about the posing of bones and making chandeliers with bones?
 

Mungo

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Sweet Pea said:
Thanks for your response. I definitely have no problem with what you are describing. The photos just didn't seem like what you are describing. I'm trying to understand, but I don't quite. I understand what YOU are saying. Just not the rest of it... can you explain the skull with the golden mask? Also, why display the bodies for everyone to see instead of putting them in a non see-through container? What about the posing of bones and making chandeliers with bones?
I cannot possibly try and explain every occurrance that happed in different ages and in different cultures. As I said some of it seems OTT now. I haven't looked at all the examples, I just skimmed a few. I don't even know if they are genuine. Do you?

People are physical beings and worship (of God) and devotions (to Saints) often involves our senses - sight, touch, sound, smell. This was (I think) particularly true when people were illiterate. All these different things conveyed meaning in a away we have to some extent lost in our literate and sanitised western society.

We have different tastes. If you go into, for example, some very baroque or rococo churches they seem (certainly to me) grossly over elaborate. But at the time they were built they were considered very beautiful and tasteful.

Why can we see bodies or bones? We sometimes want to see - that's why we have photographs and make statues. - physical expressions of memories.
 

Sweet Pea

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Okay, just got a verse from someone:



Jeremiah 8:1-3
King James Version (KJV)


[SIZE=1.25em]8 [/SIZE]At that time, saith the Lord, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
[SIZE=.75em]2 [/SIZE]And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the Lord of hosts..
 

Mungo

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And what relevance has that verse to what we are discussing?

I've never understood the concept of plucking random verses out of context and posting them with no explanation.
 

Mungo

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Sweet Pea said:
I'm not into reading loads of links.

In a discussion forum I expect people to post what they think not expect me to plough through other people's stuff.

If you think the verse is relevant to the relics of Saints then IMO you should be able to say why yourself.
 

Sweet Pea

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I kinda did... I said it was an expression of hatred and contempt. Why the animosity? I had to run my kids to school and didn't have time to type out a long response.

Basically, it's a violation. Disrespectful. A disgrace. A judgement from God (God's just vengeance) for bowing to idols.

http://www.ccel.org/...17.xviii.i.html

This link actually goes into a lot of detail to explain the verse. I think it is worth reading since you asked what relevance it had to the OP:


I Have said that Jeremiah repeats in the first verse what he had before said, — that the Jews would be deprived of their graves, in order that there might be on the dead a mark of God’s vengeance; as though he had said, that after having been destroyed by the hand of enemies, they would have their punishment extended farther by having their dead bodies exposed to the wild beasts and birds. The faithful, as I have said, suffer no loss, when burial is denied them; but yet they do not disregard burial, inasmuch as it is a badge of the resurrection. Though God suffers them to be involved in this disgrace with the reprobate, yet this does not hinder but that God should execute his vengeance on the wicked by such a temporal punishment as turns to a blessing to the faithful. It is therefore no unmeaning denunciation, when the Prophet says that the time was at hand, when their bones would be taken out of their graves.

He mentions the bones of kings, and of priests, and of prophets, and of the whole people The kings thought that as soon as they were hid in their graves, their dead bodies would be deemed sacred: the same notion prevailed as to rulers, priests, and prophets: but he says that no grave would be untouched or free from the outrage of enemies; and thus he shews, that the city would be rooted up from its foundations. Were the city to remain safe, the graves would be spared. Hence this punishment could not have been inflicted, without the very foundations of the city being dug up by the enemies. In short, he points out here a dreadful and final overthrow; and at the same time he shews the reason why God would manifest such severity towards the Jews.




It was, because they served the sun, and the moon, and the stars It was God’s just vengeance, that their bones should be taken from their graves, in order that the sun and moon and all the stars might be witnesses of his judgment. By these words Jeremiah indirectly reprobates the senselessness of the people for thinking that they performed an acceptable service to the sun and moon. He therefore says, that all the stars and the planets would become as it were spectators of the vengeance which God would execute; as though he had said, that the whole celestial host would approve of that punishment; for nothing is more detestable to creatures, than when the glory of their Maker is ascribed to them. It is indeed true that the sun, moon, and stars are without sense or reason; but the Prophet here attributes reason to them, in order that he might shake off from the Jews that stupidity in which they hardened themselves, while they thought that they were rendering to the sun an acceptable service. At the same time he alludes, as it appears also from other places, to the punishment inflicted on adulterers: for when a harlot is drawn out and led forth in contempt and disgrace in the presence of her adulterers, it is deemed a most just punishment. And thus as the Jews had as it were committed adultery with the sun and the moon and the stars, so the Prophet says here, that their disgrace and baseness would be made manifest in the sight of the sun, and the moon, and the stars.

He says, which they have loved He no doubt alludes to the blind ardor by which idolaters were possessed, when they zealously pursued their illicit devotions; for it was a species of an unbridled and mad passion, as it appears from other places; for no fornicator burns with a more impetuous lust after a woman, than idolaters do, when Satan dazzles their eyes and fascinates their hearts. Of this impure love then does the Prophet now speak; and at the same time, he indirectly condemns the Jews for having alienated themselves without a cause from God, who was their legitimate husband. There is indeed nothing less tolerable than for men thus perfidiously to forsake God, when he has invited them to himself, and contracted as it were with them a holy and an inviolable marriage.

He afterwards adds, whom they have served This was still more base; they devoted themselves to the work of serving the sun, the moon, and the stars. He mentions in the third place, that they walked after them. God had shewn them the right way, and had commanded them to follow him: but they forsook God, says the Prophet, and followed the stars of heaven. He states in the fourth place, that they sought them. By this he refers to their perverseness. Some render the word “consulted,” of which I do not approve, for it is strained and far-fetched. 215 The Prophet, I doubt not, denotes here the persevering attention of the Jews to the objects of their worship; for they followed their idols not by a sudden and momentary impulse, but they resolutely devoted themselves to them and became as it were fixed in their wicked purpose. And he says in the last place, that theyprostrated themselves before them. This was the way in which they served them. It is an evidence of reverence when men prostrate themselves before their idols; and thus they serve them, for it is an act of worship. The Prophet might indeed have sufficiently expressed in one sentence the impiety of the people; but he joins together several sentences for the sake of amplification, in order that he might render more evident the ingratitude of the people in seeking for themselves unknown gods, and in setting up false and fictitious modes of worship, rather than to render obedience to the only true God and to acquiesce in his law, which is a certain rule, and never leads any astray. 216
He afterwards adds, They shall not be gathered, nor be buried; for dung shall they be on the face or surface of the land He confirms what he had said of the punishment before mentioned, — that they had acted disdainfully towards God, and had prostrated themselves before their idols, so after death they would be made base and detestable, so that the mind would revolt at such a hateful sight.This is the meaning. It follows — He intimates in this verse, that all survivors would be doubly miserable, as it would be better for them to die at once than to pine away in unceasing evils: for they who give another meaning to the words, seem not to understand the design of the Prophet. The import then of the passage is, — that however dreadful God’s judgment would be, when slaughters everywhere prevailed, and dead bodies were drawn out which had been previously buried, yet all this would be a slight punishment in comparison with what God would inflict on the rest, such as remained alive: and he also intimates that their life would be more miserable than death itself, yea, than ten deaths.

That those then who would escape death might not think that they gained any advantage, the Prophet says, Chosen shall be death before life by all the residue We hence learn how grievous was to be God’s vengeance; for nothing would be better or more desirable than to undergo death at once, as life would be nothing else but a continued languor and torment. Expected then will be death in all places in which there shall be survivors, where I shall drive them He mentions a reason for this twofold misery, — they would not be allowed to live in their own country, but would become aliens, — and they would find in their exile God’s hand against them, and as it were following them everywhere. 217
 

Mungo

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Sweet Pea said:
I kinda did... I said it was an expression of hatred and contempt. Why the animosity? I had to run my kids to school and didn't have time to type out a long response.

Basically, it's a violation. Disrespectful. A disgrace. A judgement from God (God's just vengeance) for bowing to idols.

http://www.ccel.org/...17.xviii.i.html

This link actually goes into a lot of detail to explain the verse. I think it is worth reading since you asked what relevance it had to the OP:


I Have said that Jeremiah repeats in the first verse what he had before said, — that the Jews would be deprived of their graves, in order that there might be on the dead a mark of God’s vengeance; as though he had said, that after having been destroyed by the hand of enemies, they would have their punishment extended farther by having their dead bodies exposed to the wild beasts and birds. The faithful, as I have said, suffer no loss, when burial is denied them; but yet they do not disregard burial, inasmuch as it is a badge of the resurrection. Though God suffers them to be involved in this disgrace with the reprobate, yet this does not hinder but that God should execute his vengeance on the wicked by such a temporal punishment as turns to a blessing to the faithful. It is therefore no unmeaning denunciation, when the Prophet says that the time was at hand, when their bones would be taken out of their graves.

He mentions the bones of kings, and of priests, and of prophets, and of the whole people The kings thought that as soon as they were hid in their graves, their dead bodies would be deemed sacred: the same notion prevailed as to rulers, priests, and prophets: but he says that no grave would be untouched or free from the outrage of enemies; and thus he shews, that the city would be rooted up from its foundations. Were the city to remain safe, the graves would be spared. Hence this punishment could not have been inflicted, without the very foundations of the city being dug up by the enemies. In short, he points out here a dreadful and final overthrow; and at the same time he shews the reason why God would manifest such severity towards the Jews.




It was, because they served the sun, and the moon, and the stars It was God’s just vengeance, that their bones should be taken from their graves, in order that the sun and moon and all the stars might be witnesses of his judgment. By these words Jeremiah indirectly reprobates the senselessness of the people for thinking that they performed an acceptable service to the sun and moon. He therefore says, that all the stars and the planets would become as it were spectators of the vengeance which God would execute; as though he had said, that the whole celestial host would approve of that punishment; for nothing is more detestable to creatures, than when the glory of their Maker is ascribed to them. It is indeed true that the sun, moon, and stars are without sense or reason; but the Prophet here attributes reason to them, in order that he might shake off from the Jews that stupidity in which they hardened themselves, while they thought that they were rendering to the sun an acceptable service. At the same time he alludes, as it appears also from other places, to the punishment inflicted on adulterers: for when a harlot is drawn out and led forth in contempt and disgrace in the presence of her adulterers, it is deemed a most just punishment. And thus as the Jews had as it were committed adultery with the sun and the moon and the stars, so the Prophet says here, that their disgrace and baseness would be made manifest in the sight of the sun, and the moon, and the stars.

He says, which they have loved He no doubt alludes to the blind ardor by which idolaters were possessed, when they zealously pursued their illicit devotions; for it was a species of an unbridled and mad passion, as it appears from other places; for no fornicator burns with a more impetuous lust after a woman, than idolaters do, when Satan dazzles their eyes and fascinates their hearts. Of this impure love then does the Prophet now speak; and at the same time, he indirectly condemns the Jews for having alienated themselves without a cause from God, who was their legitimate husband. There is indeed nothing less tolerable than for men thus perfidiously to forsake God, when he has invited them to himself, and contracted as it were with them a holy and an inviolable marriage.

He afterwards adds, whom they have served This was still more base; they devoted themselves to the work of serving the sun, the moon, and the stars. He mentions in the third place, that they walked after them. God had shewn them the right way, and had commanded them to follow him: but they forsook God, says the Prophet, and followed the stars of heaven. He states in the fourth place, that they sought them. By this he refers to their perverseness. Some render the word “consulted,” of which I do not approve, for it is strained and far-fetched. 215 The Prophet, I doubt not, denotes here the persevering attention of the Jews to the objects of their worship; for they followed their idols not by a sudden and momentary impulse, but they resolutely devoted themselves to them and became as it were fixed in their wicked purpose. And he says in the last place, that theyprostrated themselves before them. This was the way in which they served them. It is an evidence of reverence when men prostrate themselves before their idols; and thus they serve them, for it is an act of worship. The Prophet might indeed have sufficiently expressed in one sentence the impiety of the people; but he joins together several sentences for the sake of amplification, in order that he might render more evident the ingratitude of the people in seeking for themselves unknown gods, and in setting up false and fictitious modes of worship, rather than to render obedience to the only true God and to acquiesce in his law, which is a certain rule, and never leads any astray. 216
He afterwards adds, They shall not be gathered, nor be buried; for dung shall they be on the face or surface of the land He confirms what he had said of the punishment before mentioned, — that they had acted disdainfully towards God, and had prostrated themselves before their idols, so after death they would be made base and detestable, so that the mind would revolt at such a hateful sight.This is the meaning. It follows — He intimates in this verse, that all survivors would be doubly miserable, as it would be better for them to die at once than to pine away in unceasing evils: for they who give another meaning to the words, seem not to understand the design of the Prophet. The import then of the passage is, — that however dreadful God’s judgment would be, when slaughters everywhere prevailed, and dead bodies were drawn out which had been previously buried, yet all this would be a slight punishment in comparison with what God would inflict on the rest, such as remained alive: and he also intimates that their life would be more miserable than death itself, yea, than ten deaths.

That those then who would escape death might not think that they gained any advantage, the Prophet says, Chosen shall be death before life by all the residue We hence learn how grievous was to be God’s vengeance; for nothing would be better or more desirable than to undergo death at once, as life would be nothing else but a continued languor and torment. Expected then will be death in all places in which there shall be survivors, where I shall drive them He mentions a reason for this twofold misery, — they would not be allowed to live in their own country, but would become aliens, — and they would find in their exile God’s hand against them, and as it were following them everywhere. 217

So, nothing relevant to the topic then.
 

Sweet Pea

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It was very relevant to the topic. What part of it do you not understand? I'm not being rude... genuine question. According to the website, t's a disgrace to be treated in that manner and was seen as a punishment from God for worshiping other gods. Why would the catholic saints be treated in this manner? Did they fall into heresy? Did they have other gods? Were they bowing down and worshiping idols? Isn't that what the verse says the punishment if for? It seems a catholic should be concerned that their saints are being treated in this manner.
 

Mungo

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Sweet Pea said:
It was very relevant to the topic. What part of it do you not understand? I'm not being rude... genuine question. According to the website, t's a disgrace to be treated in that manner and was seen as a punishment from God for worshiping other gods. Why would the catholic saints be treated in this manner? Did they fall into heresy? Did they have other gods? Were they bowing down and worshiping idols? Isn't that what the verse says the punishment if for? It seems a catholic should be concerned that their saints are being treated in this manner.
Saint's relics are treated with great reverance.

Catholics do not worship other gods.

So what is your point?
 

Sweet Pea

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I don't see how making them into chandeliers is being treated with great reverance. I know you are Catholic, so you are desensitized to seeing their bodies like the photos portray, but it's really shocking to others. The Bible shows this was a disgrace to dig up their bodies and scatter their bones. This is what is being done to the saints in the catholic church. I know you can see my point.