What is the rock in Matthew 16:18?

[tim_from_pa]

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. Galatians 2:11-12Brazen act that Paul did here since Peter was supposedly the rock as you say. And Paul quotes the rock as being Christ: What of I Corinthians 10:4 then? I suppose like the other OT stories of the rock it means nothing to you and the bible has them put there for a scribe's exercise in writing.So you are happy with a little corner of the puzzle that fits together while letting all the other pieces dangle as meaningless (aka "straws" as you call them). Well, I know all the pieces fit for me and I don't have to sweep vital scripture under the rug and ignore it. Denial is a very powerful delusion.

 

[winsome]

(tim_from_pa;55791)
Denial is a very powerful delusion.
It certainly is!

You stick with it.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Well, if that's what you think, even though I directed that at you. Two makes company I guess.Fact is, there IS a rock for the coronation and the throne is God's throne and scripture states it. It's amazing how we Americans seem to have more respect for the queen than Brits do. It seems some other representative on this earth wants that throne and rock and that's how Satan always was jealous of it. Some cast out devils by the devil.The Catholic church for example denies the lost tribes of Israel. Right there is a very serious doctrinal error which allows me to cut off from hearing any garbage they say. If someone can't get 7/8's of the bible correct, then they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[winsome]

(tim_from_pa;55796)
The Catholic church for example denies the lost tribes of Israel. Right there is a very serious doctrinal error which allows me to cut off from hearing any garbage they say. If someone can't get 7/8's of the bible correct, then they don't know what they are talking about.
You have totally lost me on this one.

 

[tomwebster]

winsome,You may believe the Church is built on Peter, I will continue to believe the Church is built on Christ, the solid Rock.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Well, with all due respect, this is why one has to compare scripture to scripture in order to establish a doctrine. You for example think that Matthew 16:18 speaks of Peter as being the rock? Maybe out of context it sure sounds that way until.... we get to passages like Matthew 18:18 which gives the same privileges to those other than Peter, but we do not hear much teaching on that. Likewise, Peter compares us to "lively stones" (I Peter 2:5) and I'm sure he was just a humble man that would be aghast of the concept that Christ's own church would be built around him. It is dangerous to base a doctrine off of one verse or passage alone. Now pertaining to the rock that I called Jacob's pillar, I have many scriptures. And since Peter was actually an apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles, if I had to "pick" one over the other, I'd have to go with Paul since I am Gentile. But hear this. Even though I use Jacob's Pillar as the physical counterpart of Christ, I do NOT endorse venerating it like some do with Peter. The Queen could throw the thing into the ocean for all we cared and still the real rock (and basis for our salvation) is Christ. The rock is merely a representation of this. Nothing would be changed.Likewise, just because the Queen is chosen does not make her saved (although I believe she is but that's my opinion). A person can be chosen of God and still face damnation.Nevertheless, as shown in my genealogy in my signature, she is of the lineage of King David.Now, if you believe in Christ, and I know you do, then according to Peter you too are a lively stone. Peter would believe he was to be the last person to venerate---- he would want you to look to Christ and not be concerned with his own personage.As for what I said about lost tribes and the throne of David, that is the position that the site owner and global moderator takes, and I agree which is why I feel comfortable here. Now we won't damn anyone for not believing this, but if one rejects it after careful study, we don't think they have their heads together either as the bible is basically a book about Israel, and not the church (as one perceives the church). This is called British-Israel teaching and we believe the bible endorses it, and the stone is VERY much a part of it. I pray for the Queen often, and I like her a lot. I won't say she is perfect, as nobody is, but God placed her where she is for a reason, and I respect that.

 

[winsome]

(tim_from_pa;55802)
As for what I said about lost tribes and the throne of David, that is the position that the site owner and global moderator takes, and I agree which is why I feel comfortable here. Now we won't damn anyone for not believing this, but if one rejects it after careful study, we don't think they have their heads together either as the bible is basically a book about Israel, and not the church (as one perceives the church). This is called British-Israel teaching and we believe the bible endorses it, and the stone is VERY much a part of it. I pray for the Queen often, and I like her a lot. I won't say she is perfect, as nobody is, but God placed her where she is for a reason, and I respect that.
I'm really curious about this. The global moderator probably won't let this be discussed as it will be considered denominational. Also I'm about to go away for almost two weeks.However if you could post me a link or two I would be interested to find out what you mean by this. I'll follow any links when I get back.Thanks

 

[tim_from_pa]

(winsome;55804)
I'm really curious about this. The global moderator probably won't let this be discussed as it will be considered denominational. Also I'm about to go away for almost two weeks.However if you could post me a link or two I would be interested to find out what you mean by this. I'll follow any links when I get back.Thanks
I'll post 5.The first one is Kriss' study about this stone found here:http://www.christianityboard.com/jacobs-ladder-t7859.htmlThe second one is another web site regarding this stone:http://www.asis.com/users/stag/stone.htmlHere's a typical site on British Israel site coming from your nation no less:http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/Their old site has in it the big yellow box with 5 steps to understanding Israel's role which is very important to read (click on it for a summary of British-Israelism). [url="http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/old/]http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/old/[/url]And lastly, here's a site of an Orthodox Jewish gentleman who talks about lost tribes. I point him out because he is NOT a Christian, but still acknowledges the truth of God's Word. I figure nobody would know more about Israel than a Jewish man himself.http://www.britam.org/(Now we know where Tom Webster gets his avatar.

)Don't let these fellows in fish hats despise your nation ruling from Rome which is what they do. You are from Ephraim, one of the chosen birthright tribes of Israel.

 

[waquinas]

If the Lord did not mean Peter, why did He say it that way? I mean why not just say, this saying you just said Peter is the rock? He is talking to his disciples and we all agree a foundational statement is being made, it just seems odd to suggest He is being obtuse here.

 

[haanne]

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow mI precieve it like this: Jesus is the head of the church. He gave peter the responsibility of the Church on earth after he left. You read : He gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom. What do Keys do? they open. So in a since Peter opened the door to the Christian faith ministry our good and Faithful Christ came and died for . Since it was Peter, Christ was speaking to, and Peters confession , I believe everything above to be true. There is one true church (Christs church) and Jesus chose Peter to start his gathering here on earth. Peter himself ,in the physical deeds ,his mouth in his confession that Jesus is the Christ and his willingness to share it with others. I love Peter he has a big mouth look at the next couple of verses21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. He really shows his heart, hes like, "Jesus dont let yourself suffer", and Jesus rebukes him becuase he is not seeing the bigger picture. It is so Identifiable with what we go through . Often we cant see why we suffer but We like Peter cannot see the bigger picture... ...

 

[Latter-day Saint]

I have enjoyed the discussion up to this point and I have one more interpretation to throw into the mix.I think that it is very possible that Christ is using the petros/petra Greek wordplay to refer to Peter as being part of the rock. Certainly Peter, as Christ's mouthpiece on the earth after the Savior's ascension into heaven, was part of the foundation on which the Church would be built.I also think that Christ was referring to Himself as the Rock of the Church. Another prophet on another occasion said "Remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whilrlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."Paul tells about the foundation of the Church in Ephesians 2;20: "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone."On the occasion recorded in Matthew 16:18, however, it is quite possible that Jesus is telling Peter that it is upon the rock of revelation that He will build His Church. "This rock" that Jesus refers to is the rock of verse 17, the fact that Peter did not have his knowledge of the Son of God from men, but received it from God the Father, through the Holy Ghost. "This rock" is revelation. It is necessary that the Church be built upon revelation, the connection between Peter (petra) and Christ (the Rock of Israel). Christ's Church today is one that is built upon revelation.

 

[haanne]

Hi again:angel9: I guess I still think that they all roll into one, all of the "interpretations fit together" It is Christ Revealing the plans the Church and for salvation through himself its like a big puzzle and the pieces fit together.. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. * Jesus builds HIS church on the Foundation of the Cross the revelation given by God and on Peters willing ness to submit and Confess and goforth with the church.I d16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.* confession41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. *deeds and action