What Is Your Definition Of Church?

[charlesj]

I KNOW THE TOPIC IS ON THE "SABBATH", BUT Paul ASKED FOR THE DEFINITION OF THE CHURCH (ASSEMBLY).

What is your definition of church?

Many use this term “church” to mean a building or a location where religious people meet. Is this the definition?

How is “church” used in the Bible? Is it a New Testament term? We have to be careful as the way we used a word depends on the idea we have of the thing (word) we have in our mind.

The way we use the word “church” reflects the ideas we have about it.


You may be surprised, but the word “church” is not a peculiarly religious word, nor is it used that way, even in the Bible. The word “church” is NOT religious at all!

In the New Testament, which was originally written in Greek, the word “church” is translated from the Greek word “ekklesia.” The Greek word is taken from two words, “ek” which means “out” and “kaleo” which means “to call out.” This Greek word was used of a group of people who have been called out of some place or relationship into a relationship into another one. Thus, the ekklesia, or church of Christ refers to people who have been called out of the world into Christ by the gospel.


How was the word “ekklesia” used BEFORE Christ came? Was “ekklesia” used in the Old Testament?

We know the Old Testament wasn’t originally written in Greek, but Hebrew. However, the Greek translation called the Septuagint which was made around 250 B.C. which Jesus and the apostles many times quoted from has the word “ekklesia.” It occurs both in a religious and non religious ways.

The word “church” occurs over forty times in the Old Testament.

For example, in Deut 9:10:

10 "And the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone awritten by the finger of God; and on them were all the words which the LORD had spoken with you at the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. (ekklesia)



The term “assembly” is from the word ekklesia in the Septuagint, the same word translated “church” in the New Testament.

We see ekklesia in Deut 4:10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:1,2,3,8 and many others, the word is translated “assembly.”

These passages make it obvious God spoke of the assembly of Jews, i.e. the Jewish nation, whether they were assembled or not. It refers to the people of the nation of Israel.


Use of the Greek word “ekllesia” (Church) In the New Testament.



In the N.T., several passages use the word church where it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. In Acts 19:32, Luke describes Paul’s controversy with the Ephesian silversmiths:



“Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly (ekklesia) was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.”


In Acts 19:32 the word “ekklesia” is translated “assembly” and describes a mob that was trying to kill Paul! It was composed of silversmiths, a group of people who had been “called out” of the city of Ephesus because of a distinctive relationship; i.e. there were all silversmiths.



Now keep in mine some important “concepts” of the word “ekklesia” here in Acts 19:32..

• ekklesia used here is a “mob” (group) of PEOPLE.
• They were “called out” of the city of Ephesus.
• They had a “relationship” with each other. (They were all silversmiths)

In this same chapter 19, verse 39:


“But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.” (Acts 19:39)



In this passage, the word ekklesia refers to the town council, again, a “church” that has nothing to do with Christ! This “church” was another group of people, called out of the town by their relationship to the council.



A third time, this word (EKKLESIA) is used in Acts 19:41:

“And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.”



All three of these passages describe the same thing: a group of people, not a building, not an organization.



In Acts 7:38 we have another passage that uses ekklesia and has NOTHING to do with the church of Christ. In this chapter, Stephen, in giving his defense shortly before his death, rehearses the history of the Jews and says, speaking of Moses:



This is he, that was in the church (ekklesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:



Here in Acts 7:38 we learn that Moses was in the “church” in the wilderness, but Moses did NOT deal with the New Testament church, but with a group of people, the congregation of Israel, the ekklesia described in the Old Testament where this same word is used.


THE CHURCH (OF CHRIST) IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.


In the New Testament references to the church of Christ, the term “church” is ALWAYS a collective noun. While a noun is the name of a person, place or thing, a collective noun is a thing that is composed of a plurality of elements.



Here are some examples of collective nouns: convey; herd; flock; troop; jury; team; crew; family; assembly; pride; school; committee; company; crowd.



One convey of quail is a bunch of quail. One quail is not a convey. Likewise, one herd of cows is many cows, not just one. A flock of sheep contains many sheep; one sheep is not a flock.

A jury consists of several members; one member is not the jury. A school of fish are many, not just one.



SO IT IS WITH THE TERM CHURCH! A church, whether the nation of Jews in the Old Testament, a mob of silversmiths, a city council in the New Testament, or the church of Christ, is a collection of people.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said:



“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”



Jesus spoke of a number of people, a collection of people. He did not speak of an organization, like a corporation. He spoke of people. He did lnot speak of an institution like a university. He spoke of people.



Some are interested in institutionalism and its effects on the religion of Christ (some at this point will not be), the very root of institutionalism is right here. If we view the church of Christ as an institution people get into, we are bound to be institutional in our thinking. The church is not an institution people enter – IT IS PEOPLE!

To be sure, the church was instituted by God, and it has organization, but the church is a plurality of people. To illustrate my point, note that no one looks at a herd of cattle and thinks, “my what a wonderful institution!” A herd of cattle is not an institution; it is simply a bunch of cattle. No one ever remarked about a convey of quail, “what a glorious organization!” No, a convey is a bunch of quail, not an organization.



Think of every passage in the Bible where the word “church” occurs, whether in the Old Testament or int the New Testament. Doesn’t the phrase “bunch of people” fit the context exactly? In 1 Cor 1:2, when Paul spoke of the “church of God at Corinth,” didn’t he speak of the people of God there, a bunch ofr collective of people?



Some object to the use of the word “bunch” as a synonym for church on the ground it doesn’t sound religious enough. That’s exactly why I’ve chosen it: “church” as it’s used in the Bible is not a specially religious word, and yet, with our religious backgrounds, most can hardly separate the idea of religion from it.

With our exposure ot denominational, institutional, and organizational religion, most can hardly think of the workd “church” without those denominational, institutional, and organizational concepts come to mind.



First of all, notice the word “church” is a collective noun: it always stands for a “bunch of people” – whether they’re Christians or not, whether they’re religious or not, whether they even believe in God or not. That’s the way the word is used throughout the Bible.



Also, “Church” is a Non-Descriptive Collective Noun.

The term “church” is not only a collective noun, but it is also non-descriptive, that is, it is a collection of people who are not described by the term itself. It is precisely because the term “church” doesn’t describe the nature of the people in the group that the term “church” can be used of a variety of people; i.e. sometimes Christians, sometimes Jewish nation, sometimes a mob of silversmiths. This usage does no violence to the word “church,” because the term doesn’t describe the kind people in the group.



Other terms in the Bible describe the same group of people, that is, the people of Christ. For example, in Eph. 1L22,23, Paul speaks of the church as the “body” of Christ. Body is another collective noun: one body has many members. Sometimes when one is asked what the church is, the reply is given the church is the body. True, but what is the body? Many are hard pressed to give a reply, other than to say the body is the church. That’s like one old-timer who when asked if he knew that a rattlesnake (we have a lot of them in TEXAS!) meat tasted like, said, “Sure, it tastes like bull snake!” Well, what does bull snake taste like? It’s obvious like rattlesnake! We really don’t know much more than when we first asked the question.



The Bible also speaks of the church as the house or family of God, 1 Tim 3:5. Family is another collective noun. One person is not a family any more than one member is a body. One might say the church is the family, and the family is the church, but he still may not have an idea of what the church is.



So, two collective nouns with flavor, i.e., that describe the kind of people in the group, help illustrate something about the people in the church, a term that in itself has no flavor. A church can be collective of any kind of people. Whever the kind of people who make up it up, though, the church is a bunch of people.

The church of Christ is the people who belong to Christ and are in fellowship with Him.



A question might be, “how do you get into the church?” Or, what church is it?

What is the gospel? How do you obey the gospel. How did the priests of Acts 6:7 obey the faith (gospel)?


The gospel (GOOD NEWS!) is the 1. Death, 2. Burial, 3. Resurrection of Chirst. That’s it, that is how simple it is. (See Romans 15:3,4)

How do you “obey” the gospel? You “emulate” what He did!! Jesus said, “…if you die with me then you will reign with me.” (Rom 6:8)

The apostle Paul was speaking to some Christians and he told them “how and when they were saved.” Read it for yourselves:



Romans 6:3-5:



3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,



These Roman Christians had obeyed the gospel by faith. These Christians had repented of their sins to the Father (whom they sinned against), confessed His Son, Jesus the Christ as savior and then were buried (baptized) WITH HIM. They died WITH HIM! These Christians had “obeyed from the heart, ‘that form of doctrine’ that set them free from sin and they became servants of righteousness. We do the SAME thing today when we obey the gospel.

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,​

and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:17,18)​

That "form of teaching" that these Romans Christians obeyed is the "gospel." Read the whole "context" of Romans 6. The word "form" in this verse is the Greek word "tupos" and means "mold or pattern." (See Heb 8:5 where Moses was told to build the tablernacle "according to a PATTERN" (TUPOS). Verses 17 & 18 sum up what Paul said in verses 3 and following.



At this time, when they obeyed the gospel, “God ADDED THEM TO THE CHURCH!” (Acts 2:47). What “church” is this? This is the church IN HEAVEN where their names were written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. This “assembly” (church) contains all the righteous from Adam to the present time (and growing daily!) This is the 'universal church" and IS NOT on earth, but in heaven.

This is what God says to all the saved when they are added to the church:

Hebrews 12:22-24:

“ you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than he blood of Abel.”​

Hebrews 12:22ff is not speaking of a "local church," but is speaking of the "universal church" in heaven... the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem... the general assembly and church of the first born...' PRAISE GOD!


Have you been "added" to the assembly in heaven? (Acts 2:47)

If I were to preach/teach the gospel in San Antonio, Texas and someone obeyed the gospel and then I went to Africa (or anyplace in the world) and preached/taught the gospel and someone obeyed it I would have the same result in San Antonio as I do in Africa, that is, a Christian is born! When one obeys the gospel, they become a "Christian"... nothing else! Man has divided us with denominations etc, we all need to go by whom we follow, that is Christ, we are Christians (followers of Christ). We are not to be Catholic, Protestant, or any of the 38,000 denominstional names, but only "Christians."​

When the church started in 33 A.D. in Jerusalem when the 3000 obeyed the gospel, they were just Christians. This gospel spread like wildfire and "assemblies" (churches) of Christians met together all over the Roman Empire overnight! These assemblies had a minister, elders and deacons over each flock. ​

Today, you have anything but what the first century assembly looked like. We need to go back to the way Christ set up the church in the first century. ​

If you have any question(s) write me. I will welcome the email. ​

Your servant in Christ,

Charles Jemeyson

[email protected]


San Antonio, Tx ​

 

[Selene]

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said:



“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”



Jesus spoke of a number of people, a collection of people. He did not speak of an organization, like a corporation. He spoke of people. He did lnot speak of an institution like a university. He spoke of people.



Some are interested in institutionalism and its effects on the religion of Christ (some at this point will not be), the very root of institutionalism is right here. If we view the church of Christ as an institution people get into, we are bound to be institutional in our thinking. The church is not an institution people enter – IT IS PEOPLE!

Hello Charles,

Okay. I found your post. It was near the bottom, and no one has responded to it. I agree that "Church" is an assembly of people. But it does not mean that it is a small assembly or a large assembly. It is simply "people." And that is exactly what we are. We have never said that the Church is a building. The Catholic Church is a people. When we say "Catholic Church," we are referring to the Catholic people. The word "Catholic" means "Universal." Our Assembly is over a billion and growing., When Christ told His Apostle to go to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, He was telling His Apostles to bring all these people to Him. That is why our assembly has grown very large. And it is still growing today especially in Africa and Asia.

However, God's Church has always been a hierarchy.

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

As you can see, it is the bishops who was to rule this "Assembly" of God. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Andrew was the Bishop of Constaniople, and James was the Bishop at Jerusalem. The Apostles appointed others to become Bishops like themselves to rule God's Church, and as the population of the people increased, they appointed priests as well. See the Scripture below:

Acts 6:1-7 And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying was liked by all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte of Antioch. These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. And the word of the Lord increased; and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly: a great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith.


In Christ,
Selene

 

[charlesj]

Hello Charles,

Okay. I found your post. It was near the bottom, and no one has responded to it. I agree that "Church" is an assembly of people. But it does not mean that it is a small assembly or a large assembly. It is simply "people." And that is exactly what we are. We have never said that the Church is a building. The Catholic Church is a people. When we say "Catholic Church," we are referring to the Catholic people. The word "Catholic" means "Universal." Our Assembly is over a billion and growing., When Christ told His Apostle to go to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, He was telling His Apostles to bring all these people to Him. That is why our assembly has grown very large. And it is still growing today especially in Africa and Asia.

However, God's Church has always been a hierarchy.

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

As you can see, it is the bishops who was to rule this "Assembly" of God. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Andrew was the Bishop of Constaniople, and James was the Bishop at Jerusalem. The Apostles appointed others to become Bishops like themselves to rule God's Church, and as the population of the people increased, they appointed priests as well. See the Scripture below:

Acts 6:1-7 And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying was liked by all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte of Antioch. These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. And the word of the Lord increased; and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly: a great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith.


In Christ,
Selene

Selene:

The word "bishop" and "elder" are taken from the SAME GREEK WORD. I am going to write on this and will let you know when I post it. I will show you "elder, pastor, bishop and overseer" are one and the same and ALWAYS mentioned in scripture in the plural.

I hope you don't think the word "priests" here refers to those of the Christian assembly. The "priests" here were JEWISH (Levitical) priests that were not Christians UNTIL they obeyed the gospel. (They "obeyed the faith"(gospel))

love,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas

 

[forgivenWretch]

the church is the assembly of born again believers coming together in fellowship to praise and worship God, which form the body

 

[charlesj]

Hello Charles,

Okay. I found your post. It was near the bottom, and no one has responded to it. I agree that "Church" is an assembly of people. But it does not mean that it is a small assembly or a large assembly. It is simply "people." And that is exactly what we are. We have never said that the Church is a building. The Catholic Church is a people. When we say "Catholic Church," we are referring to the Catholic people. The word "Catholic" means "Universal." Our Assembly is over a billion and growing., When Christ told His Apostle to go to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, He was telling His Apostles to bring all these people to Him. That is why our assembly has grown very large. And it is still growing today especially in Africa and Asia.

However, God's Church has always been a hierarchy.

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

As you can see, it is the bishops who was to rule this "Assembly" of God. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Andrew was the Bishop of Constaniople, and James was the Bishop at Jerusalem. The Apostles appointed others to become Bishops like themselves to rule God's Church, and as the population of the people increased, they appointed priests as well. See the Scripture below:

Acts 6:1-7 And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying was liked by all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte of Antioch. These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. And the word of the Lord increased; and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly: a great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith.


In Christ,
Selene

Selene:

See my post on "Preachers are not Pastors".... http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/12633-preachers-are-not-pastors/

Christian love,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas

 

[charlesj]

the church is the assembly of born again believers coming together in fellowship to praise and worship God, which form the body

Hello "forgivenWrentch":

The assembly (church) on earth is made up of both believers who have obeyed the gospel and also some will “say” they are believers, but are unsaved. If you asked ten people “are you a Christian”? Eight of them will respond “yes,” but maybe only one or two have obeyed the gospel.


When one “obeys the faith” (gospel) In Acts 6:7 Luke tells us that “many priests were obedient to the faith.”

Acts 6:7 And the word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


What is “the faith, or the gospel?”


The gospel (good news) is the DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION of our Lord. That’s the good news. He died, He was buried, and He resurrection to His former Glory.

IT’S THAT SIMPLE!! That’s the “good news.”


That’s the “faith” that the priests in Acts 6:7 obeyed. How do you obey the gospel?



When one repents to the Father (whom he/she has sinned against), confesses Jesus Christ as their savior and then buried (baptism) WITH Him they have obeyed the gospel.

They have “emulated” what Christ did! That is, they died to their sins (repentance), confessed Christ and then was buried (baptism waters) WITH HIM and they were raised WITH Him to walk in newness of life. (THIS IS A “HEART THING” and one obeys by faith and trust in the Lord)

If one does this, God adds them to the assembly in heaven, Angels rejoice and they are added to the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Read what the apostle Paul says of this. In this account, Paul is speaking to some Roman Christians and telling them “how and when” they were saved.

Romans 6:3-6:

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;



This chapter (Romans 6) is very interesting. Here in verse 6 Paul tells us, if we do this (baptism) then we are no longer slaves to sin…. Now go to verse 17 & 18, still in context, Paul tells us more about baptism (gospel).



17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



Paul continues on here in Rom 617,18 and tells the Roman Christians that when they “obeyed that form of teaching” they were “freed from sin, and they became slaves of righteousness.”

This verse is very strong and narrows it down to what teaching this is in the fact Paul says “that form.” The Greek word for “form” here is the Greek word “TUPOS.”

Tupos means a “mold, a pattern.” If you give a woman a pattern to make a dress from, then every dress made from that pattern will LOOK IDENTICAL to the original dress. This is the idea of obeying the gospel. If one obeys the gospel in San Antonio Texas and another obeys the gospel in Bremerhaven, Germany you get the same result, A CHRISTIAN! (Nothing else, not Protestant, not Catholic, not Orthrodox, etc. etc, just Christian)



To get a better idea of TUPOS, take a look at Hebrews 8:5 where it is translated “pattern.” When you look at this verse, you will get the idea of what ‘tupos” means.

Hebrews 8:5:

5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "See," He says, "that you make all things according to the pattern (tupos) which was shown you on the mountain."



Moses HAD to build the tabernacle EXACTLY the way God showed him in Mt. Sinai. It was a TUPOS, A PATTERN! Look in Leviticus 10 and see what happened to Nadab and Abihu, these were Levitical Priests, sons of Aaron, because they did not obey the pattern rules they were struck dead by God.



When one obeys the gospel, God will add them to the assembly. (Acts 2:47) Which “assembly” is that? It’s the assembly in heaven (also called the Universal Chruch) and contains all the righteous from Adam’s time to the present (and is growing daily). All in this assembly are saved! This "Universal Church" in NOT on earth!



One “joins” a local assembly. But, not all in the “local assembly” (on earth) are saved.



Thanks for your comments.



May the Lord be with you,

Your servant in Christ,

Charles Jemeyson

[email protected]

San Antonio, Texas



“Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,” -Romans 6:8

 

[jiggyfly]

Translating ekklesia as "church" is an error made by the KJV which has been carried on by most English translations today. Back when I used to be a participant in religious liturgy, I could not begin to tell you how many times I had heard the lie, "isn't good to be in the house of the Lord today" or "welcome to God's house" and the like. Jesus is building His ekklesia but I doubt He is using lies to do it.

 

[charlesj]

Translating ekklesia as "church" is an error made by the KJV which has been carried on by most English translations today. Back when I used to be a participant in religious liturgy, I could not begin to tell you how many times I had heard the lie, "isn't good to be in the house of the Lord today" or "welcome to God's house" and the like. Jesus is building His ekklesia but I doubt He is using lies to do it.

Hello jiggfly.


AMEN!! Thanks.


Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonnio, Texas

p.s. How did you choose "jiggfly" as a handle?
Just curious.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello jiggfly.


AMEN!! Thanks.


Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonnio, Texas

p.s. How did you choose "jiggfly" as a handle?
Just curious.

It is a nickname given to me by a friend some years back from a TV commercial and it just stuck. I used it as my handle on another christian forum and I have just stayed with it.

 

[charlesj]

It is a nickname given to me by a friend some years back from a TV commercial and it just stuck. I used it as my handle on another christian forum and I have just stayed with it.

jiggyfly:

I had to smile when I saw your handle. It reminded me of a "lure" for fishing.
My wife and I go to Mustang Island State Park every year and spend anywhere from 3 to 5 months at the state park. We work 12 hours each and have the rest of the week off. We are the "park hosts." (Volunteers)
We stay with our electricty, water, and sewer for our RV free.
Of course we fish, swim etc & in the Gulf of Mexico. I did pretty good in fishing this year, but last year I caught a ton of fish (speckled trout, reds, jack carvelle, etc.)

One of the good things, as a park host, we have 48 sites available for RV's and unlimited spaces for camping "on the beach." I meet all kinds of people from all parts of Texas and the world. It gives me an opportunity to talk about th gospel if the "door" opens. Sometimes I open the door, but it's not the time.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.
I like the name!

your servant in Messiah,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas

p.s. Mustang Island State Park: http://www.tpwd.stat...mustang_island/

 

[Selene]

Translating ekklesia as "church" is an error made by the KJV which has been carried on by most English translations today. Back when I used to be a participant in religious liturgy, I could not begin to tell you how many times I had heard the lie, "isn't good to be in the house of the Lord today" or "welcome to God's house" and the like. Jesus is building His ekklesia but I doubt He is using lies to do it.

The problem with the English language is that one word can have several different meanings. According to dictionary.com, the word "Church" has 14 defintions and all these definitions have something to do with God in that it speaks about worsipping God or speaks about a group of people belonging to God.

CHURCH

noun 1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. public worship of god or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom. 4. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church. 5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc. 6. a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church. 7. ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him. 8. the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination. 9. the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church. 10. ( initial capital letter

) the Christian Church before the Reformation. 11. ( initial capital letter

) the Roman Catholic Church. 12. the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church. 13. a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion. 14. any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church.



Now, let's look at the word "Assembly" in the English language. According to Dictionary. com, it lists 6 different definitions for Assembly, and some of these definitions have nothing to do with God, but a government or machinary; therefore, I would conclude that the KJV used the best English word for "Ekklesia."

ASSEMBLY

noun, plural -blies. 1. an assembling or coming together of a number of persons, usually for a particular purpose: The principal will speak to all the students at Friday's assembly. 2. a group of persons gathered together, usually for a particular purpose, whether religious, political, educational, or social. 3. ( often initial capital letter

) Government . a legislative body, esp. the lower house of the legislature in certain states of the U.S.: a bill before the assembly; the new york State Assembly. 4. Military . a. a signal, as by drum or bugle, for troops to fall into ranks or otherwise assemble. b. the movement of forces, tanks, soldiers, etc., scattered by battle or battle drill, toward and into a small area. 5. the putting together of complex machinery, as airplanes, from interchangeable parts of standard dimensions. 6. Machinery . a group of machine parts, esp. one forming a self-contained, independently mounted unit.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[charlesj]

The problem with the English language is that one word can have several different meanings. According to dictionary.com, the word "Church" has 14 defintions and all these definitions have something to do with God in that it speaks about worsipping God or speaks about a group of people belonging to God.

CHURCH

noun 1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. public worship of god or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom. 4. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church. 5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc. 6. a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church. 7. ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him. 8. the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination. 9. the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church. 10. ( initial capital letter

) the Christian Church before the Reformation. 11. ( initial capital letter

) the Roman Catholic Church. 12. the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church. 13. a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion. 14. any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church.



Now, let's look at the word "Assembly" in the English language. According to Dictionary. com, it lists 6 different definitions for Assembly, and some of these definitions have nothing to do with God, but a government or machinary; therefore, I would conclude that the KJV used the best English word for "Ekklesia."

ASSEMBLY

noun, plural -blies. 1. an assembling or coming together of a number of persons, usually for a particular purpose: The principal will speak to all the students at Friday's assembly. 2. a group of persons gathered together, usually for a particular purpose, whether religious, political, educational, or social. 3. ( often initial capital letter

) Government . a legislative body, esp. the lower house of the legislature in certain states of the U.S.: a bill before the assembly; the new york State Assembly. 4. Military . a. a signal, as by drum or bugle, for troops to fall into ranks or otherwise assemble. b. the movement of forces, tanks, soldiers, etc., scattered by battle or battle drill, toward and into a small area. 5. the putting together of complex machinery, as airplanes, from interchangeable parts of standard dimensions. 6. Machinery . a group of machine parts, esp. one forming a self-contained, independently mounted unit.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene:
Why use a secular dictionary? These are MEN, they are NOT inspired! Why not use the Bible, especially the New Covenant as it defines itself?
The dictionary has it's place, but maybe not here.

You never answered my question. Are you a Catholic nun?
I know, being as you are on a small island, you have as much time on your hands as I do! LOL


Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas

"knowledge gained and not shared is knowledge stolen"

 

[jiggyfly]

The problem with the English language is that one word can have several different meanings. According to dictionary.com, the word "Church" has 14 defintions and all these definitions have something to do with God in that it speaks about worsipping God or speaks about a group of people belonging to God.

CHURCH

noun 1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. public worship of god or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom. 4. ( sometimes initial capital letter

) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church. 5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc. 6. a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church. 7. ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him. 8. the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination. 9. the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church. 10. ( initial capital letter

) the Christian Church before the Reformation. 11. ( initial capital letter

) the Roman Catholic Church. 12. the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church. 13. a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion. 14. any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church.



Now, let's look at the word "Assembly" in the English language. According to Dictionary. com, it lists 6 different definitions for Assembly, and some of these definitions have nothing to do with God, but a government or machinary; therefore, I would conclude that the KJV used the best English word for "Ekklesia."

ASSEMBLY

noun, plural -blies. 1. an assembling or coming together of a number of persons, usually for a particular purpose: The principal will speak to all the students at Friday's assembly. 2. a group of persons gathered together, usually for a particular purpose, whether religious, political, educational, or social. 3. ( often initial capital letter

) Government . a legislative body, esp. the lower house of the legislature in certain states of the U.S.: a bill before the assembly; the new york State Assembly. 4. Military . a. a signal, as by drum or bugle, for troops to fall into ranks or otherwise assemble. b. the movement of forces, tanks, soldiers, etc., scattered by battle or battle drill, toward and into a small area. 5. the putting together of complex machinery, as airplanes, from interchangeable parts of standard dimensions. 6. Machinery . a group of machine parts, esp. one forming a self-contained, independently mounted unit.

In Christ,
Selene

Hey Selene, do you know what etymology is? It is the study of a word's history and origin and such a study of the English word "church" reveals that it comes from the Greek word kuriakos and not ekklesia. Kuriakos means "the Lord's" and it is found twice in the scriptures, here in 1Cor. 11:20 concerning "the Lord's supper" and in Rev.1:10 concerning "the Lord's day".

Clearly using the word "church" to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" is an grave and deliberate error on the part of the translators.

 

[charlesj]

Hey Selene, do you know what etymology is? It is the study of a word's history and origin and such a study of the English word "church" reveals that it comes from the Greek word kuriakos and not ekklesia. Kuriakos means "the Lord's" and it is found twice in the scriptures, here in 1Cor. 11:20 concerning "the Lord's supper" and in Rev.1:10 concerning "the Lord's day".

Clearly using the word "church" to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" is an grave and deliberate error on the part of the translators.

Hey jiggyfly:
Write me more on this in private. [email protected].
I've done the etymology of church long ago, but did not see this. I would apprecite you sending me what you have.
thanks,
Charles Jemeyson
San Antonio, Texas

 

[Selene]

Hey Selene, do you know what etymology is? It is the study of a word's history and origin and such a study of the English word "church" reveals that it comes from the Greek word kuriakos and not ekklesia. Kuriakos means "the Lord's" and it is found twice in the scriptures, here in 1Cor. 11:20 concerning "the Lord's supper" and in Rev.1:10 concerning "the Lord's day".

Clearly using the word "church" to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" is an grave and deliberate error on the part of the translators.

Hello Jiggyfly,

If one is to translate the Bible from the Greek language to the English language, I would think that one would choose the best word in the English language that would most appropriately be aligned with the Greek. Therefore, to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" into the English language, the KJV is correct to use the English word "Church" because "Assembly" can also mean a "business assembly," an "educational assembly" or even "an assembly line." The word, "Church" on the other hand is always associated with God at all times. Is there such thing as a "business church" or a "church of business?"

In Christ,
Selene

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello Jiggyfly,

If one is to translate the Bible from the Greek language to the English language, I would think that one would choose the best word in the English language that would most appropriately be aligned with the Greek. Therefore, to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" into the English language, the KJV is correct to use the English word "Church" because "Assembly" can also mean a "business assembly," an "educational assembly" or even "an assembly line." The word, "Church" on the other hand is always associated with God at all times. Is there such thing as a "business church" or a "church of business?"

In Christ,
Selene

Yes, actually you have done very well in describing "church" as a business. We seem to disagree on this, the two Greek words ekklesia and kuriakos have not been used interchangeably in scripture, so while you may want to ignore these facts they cannot be denied. It is an errant translation and a history study will also prove that it was a deliberate manipulation by the KJV translators.

 

[Selene]

Yes, actually you have done very well in describing "church" as a business. We seem to disagree on this, the two Greek words ekklesia and kuriakos have not been used interchangeably in scripture, so while you may want to ignore these facts they cannot be denied. It is an errant translation and a history study will also prove that it was a deliberate manipulation by the KJV translators.

Hello Jiggfly,

Actually, I don't think the English word "Church" ignored the Greek word "kuriakos." As I pointed out, the English word "Church" is always associated with worshipping God or having to do with God's people. Also, I provided for you the origin of the English word "Church" below from Dictionary.com. If you know a better English word that you think is best aligned with the Greek word "ekklesia," could you share it with us?

Church
Origin:
bef. 900; ME chir ( i ) che, OE cir ( i ) ce ≪ Gk kȳri ( a ) kón ( dôma ) the Lord's (house), neut. of kȳriakós of the master, equiv. to kȳ́ri ( os ) master ( kŷr ( os ) power + -ios n. suffix) + -akos, var. of -ikos -ic; akin to D kerk, G Kirche, ON kirkja. See kirk

In Christ,
Selene

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello Jiggfly,

Actually, I don't think the English word "Church" ignored the Greek word "kuriakos." As I pointed out, the English word "Church" is always associated with worshipping God or having to do with God's people. Also, I provided for you the origin of the English word "Church" below from Dictionary.com. If you know a better English word that you think is best aligned with the Greek word "ekklesia," could you share it with us?

Church
Origin:
bef. 900; ME chir ( i ) che, OE cir ( i ) ce ≪ Gk kȳri ( a ) kón ( dôma ) the Lord's (house), neut. of kȳriakós of the master, equiv. to kȳ́ri ( os ) master ( kŷr ( os ) power + -ios n. suffix) + -akos, var. of -ikos -ic; akin to D kerk, G Kirche, ON kirkja. See kirk

In Christ,
Selene

Assembly.

 

[Selene]

Assembly.

Thank you, Jiggfly. It would be interesting to hear your explaination on why you think the English word "Assembly" is the best one compared to "Church" (as used by the KJV), and how it is supportive with the Greek word "kuriakos"

In Christ,
Selene

 

[jiggyfly]

Thank you, Jiggfly. It would be interesting to hear your explaination on why you think the English word "Assembly" is the best one compared to "Church" (as used by the KJV), and how it is supportive with the Greek word "kuriakos"

In Christ,
Selene

Simply because the ekklesia is much more than the Lord's possession ( kuriakos).
Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in [fn]you? 1Cor. 3:16
Yes, the body has many different parts, not just one part. The eye can never say to the hand, "I don't need you." The head can't say to the feet, "I don't need you." In fact, some of the parts that seem weakest and least important are really the most necessary. And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect from the eyes of others those parts that should not be seen, while other parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other equally. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad. Now all of you together are Christ's body, and each one of you is a separate and necessary part of it. 1Cor. 12:20-27
We who believe are carefully joined together, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. Eph.2:21
Under his direction, the whole body is fitted together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love. Eph.4:16
And now God is building you, as living stones, into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are God's holy priests, who offer the spiritual sacrifices that please him because of Jesus Christ. 1Peter 2:5
As you can see God is assembling us together and it is not a religious system or institution, but rather something spiritual. I'll have to finish this later.


OK sorry for the interruption. Now there are a couple of reasons that I believe the English word "church" is an errant translation for the Greek word "ekklesia". First, as I said before, is the etymology of "church", it comes from the Greek word "kuriakos" which is an adjective meaning "the Lord's" and obviously "ekklesia" is a noun. So it simply doesn't work as a good translation because it breaks the linguistic rules.

Secondly, to refer to the ekklesia (assembly) as the kuriakos (the Lord's) fails to relate the full picture of the ekklesia. While it is true that the ekklesia is the Lord's, everything in heaven and earth are His. He is the Creator of all things, but the ekklesia has a special design and purpose apart from all creation. All humanity are God's children, but the ekklesia is a special group, all humanity will be reconciled to God but not all will be part of the ekklesia. So hopefully you can see how kuriakos lacks definitive characteristics to describe the full and proper understanding of the ekklesia.