what the early church fathers taught about the pre trib rapture

[teamventure]

i have read some writings of the early church fathers where they taught a pre trib rapture.

Ephraim the syrian wrote in AD 373: because all saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the Lord.

Cyprian, Tertullian, and Irenaeus also preached a pre trib rapture.

so enough of this jon darby was the first. you know that's not true anyway.

 

[veteran]

i have read some writings of the early church fathers where they taught a pre trib rapture.

Ephraim the syrian wrote in AD 373: because all saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the Lord.

Cyprian, Tertullian, and Irenaeus also preached a pre trib rapture.

so enough of this jon darby was the first. you know that's not true anyway.

Cyprian - ""...the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..."

That doesn't show a pre-trib rapture.



See this link for the below quote from Dave MacPherson who well documented false twists of the early Church fathers by those like Grant Jeffery. What those pre-tribulationalists do is called REVISIONISM:
http://www.tribwatch.com/davemac.htm

"You've probably heard that the pretribulation rapture view was published by a Rev. Morgan Edwards in 1788 and also by a Medieval writer called Pseudo-Ephraem 1000 years earlier. The Edwards claim (promoted by John Bray and copied by Frank Marotta, Thomas Ice, Tim LaHaye etc.) is based on a 1980 book by Thomas McKibbens and Kenneth Smith, while the claim for Pseudo-Ephraem (promoted by Grant Jeffrey and copied by Thomas Ice, J. R. Church, Jerry Falwell, Tim LaHaye, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, Hal Lindsey etc.) rests on a 1985 book by Paul Alexander. Not only have these promoters covered up and twisted what McKibbens/Smith and Alexander have written, but they've also concealed and perverted Morgan Edwards' and Pseudo-Ephraem's own words!"
....
(Dave MacPherson)

 

[teamventure]

Cyprian - ""...the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..."

That doesn't show a pre-trib rapture.



See this link for the below quote from Dave MacPherson who well documented false twists of the early Church fathers by those like Grant Jeffery. What those pre-tribulationalists do is called REVISIONISM:
http://www.tribwatch.com/davemac.htm

"You've probably heard that the pretribulation rapture view was published by a Rev. Morgan Edwards in 1788 and also by a Medieval writer called Pseudo-Ephraem 1000 years earlier. The Edwards claim (promoted by John Bray and copied by Frank Marotta, Thomas Ice, Tim LaHaye etc.) is based on a 1980 book by Thomas McKibbens and Kenneth Smith, while the claim for Pseudo-Ephraem (promoted by Grant Jeffrey and copied by Thomas Ice, J. R. Church, Jerry Falwell, Tim LaHaye, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, Hal Lindsey etc.) rests on a 1985 book by Paul Alexander. Not only have these promoters covered up and twisted what McKibbens/Smith and Alexander have written, but they've also concealed and perverted Morgan Edwards' and Pseudo-Ephraem's own words!"
....
(Dave MacPherson)

how do i know he's not the one who's lying or twisting the truth?

 

[veteran]

so enough of this jon darby was the first. you know that's not true anyway.

You're right, John Darby wasn't the first to believe the pre-trib rapture theory. He got it from Edward Irving in 1830's Britain.


Text of Pseudo-Ephraim, revealing the real text attributed to the Syrian Ephraim had a Post-tribulational stance, not a pre-trib rapture stance:

"...He will effect all the wonders Which Our Lord performed within the created order, Except that he will not be able to resurrect the dead, For he will not have authority over (the) spirits (of the dead). Lightening-flashes will be his messengers, And are the sign of his advent; Demons are his armies And the commanders of the devils are his pupils; He will dispatch the heads of his legions To distant lands Where they will display marvelous powers and healings And mislead the whole of creation. Behold, the Apostle has penned a warning for us In his epistle to the Thessalonians: ‘Let no word or no letter Trouble you that is not from us. For the rebellion comes first, Also the Man of Sin And he will exalt himself over God, Making himself to be God.’ And when the Accursed One comes And displays his mighty works and wonders, The nations will gather together and come As (if) they were going to see God. Groups and nations will join him, And every person will renounce their deity; Everyone will say of him to their fellow That they should acknowledge him, the Son of Destruction! Peoples will fall upon one another, Slaying each other with swords. The elect will flee from his presence To the peaks of mountains and hills, And there will be calamity on earth Unlike any that came before. Fear will fall upon all people And they will be overcome with terror. Children will renounce their father And follow after the Evil One; Priests will abandon their altars To serve as his heralds. People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: ‘Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions! But as for us, woe is us! For when we die, Vultures will serve as escort for us!’ And if the days of that time were not shortened, The elect would never survive The calamities and afflictions. For Our Lord revealed (and) disclosed to us In his Gospel when He said: ‘Those days will be shortened For the sake of the elect and the saints.’ And when he has harassed the whole of creation, (When) the Son of Destruction (has bent it) to his will, Enoch and Elijah will be sent That they might persuade the Evil One. With a gentle question The saints will come before him, In order to expose the Son of Destruction Before the assemblies surrounding him: ‘If you are indeed God, Tell us what we ask of you: Where is the place that you have hidden The elders Elijah and Enoch?’ The Evil One will respond and say To the saints at that time: ‘When I wish (it), they are in the height(s), Or again should I choose, they are within the sea; For I have authority over habitations, Since there is no other god apart from me And I can make anything On earth (and) also in heaven!’ They will answer The Son of Destruction as follows: ‘If you are truly God, Call out to the deceased so that they will rise! For it is written within the books Of the prophets and the apostles That when the Messiah reveals Himself, He will resurrect the dead from the graves. If you cannot show us this (sign), Then the One who was crucified is greater than you! For he roused and resurrected those who were dead, And was exalted in great splendor.’ Then the Evil One will become enraged With the saints at that time; He will draw his terrible sword And sever the necks of the righteous ones. But Gabriel will arise (and) descend (With) Michael (as) military commanders; They will resurrect those saints While the Evil One stands confused with his servants. They will approach and seize that Accursed One And the Lord will rebuke (him) from heaven; Then He will destroy the Accursed One And all of his forces. Angels will suddenly approach And cast him into Gehenna, And all of those who believed in him Will be thrust into the flame(s). Then the Lord will come from above In splendor and with a company of His angels, And between earth and heaven A throne-chariot will be fixed there. He will admonish the sea and it will dry up; The fish within it will perish. He will dissolve the heavens and the earth, And there will be (only) darkness and gloom. He will dispatch fire upon the earth, And it will burn there for forty <days> Purifying it of iniquity And of pollution and of sins. A great throne will be adorned And the Son will be seated on the right; Seats will be positioned For the twelve apostles of the Son; And couches will be decorated for the martyrs And a royal chamber for the righteous ones. The Watchers will blow trumpets And the dead will arise from the dust; Fiery entities will suddenly go forth And assemble all the descendants of Adam. They will gather the wheat in a storehouse And throw the straw into the fire; The good will go forth into the Kingdom, And the bad will remain in Gehenna; The righteous will fly up to the height, And the sinners will burn in fire. The martyrs will float to the couch; The wicked will go out into darkness. And Christ will reign forever, He will be sovereign over each generation. To Him be the glory, and His mercy is over us For all time, amen, amen!"

(Translated from the text in Edmund Beck, ed., Des heiligen Ephraem des Syrers Sermones III (CSCO 320; Louvain: Secrétariat du Corpus SCO, 1972), 60-71; see also 79-94 for Beck’s translation. The text is based on two manuscripts: (1) Codex Vaticanus Sir. 566, and (2) Codex Dublinensis (Trinity College) B 5.19. Editio princeps: Thomas Josephus Lamy, ed., Sancti Ephraem Syri Hymni et Sermones (4 vols.; Mechliniae: H. Dessain, 1882-1902), 3:187-212.)

 

[mark s]

Here is a summary of citations I've been able to find from the pre-Nicene writers:


Irenaeus (circa 180 ad, Vol. 1 pg 558) and Tertullian (c. 210, Vol. 3, pgs 231, 455, 462, 565, 575) specifically wrote of the rapture. None of these citations contain a definitive statement regarding the timing of the rapture.

Of the Great Tribulation:
Hermas (c. 150 Vol 2 pg 11, 18), Irenaeus (vol 1.558, Hippolytus (c. 200 vol 5.179,190, 217), Tertullian (3.565), and Commodianus (c. 240, 4.212) wrote.
Hermas (Vol. 2 pg 11) said, “This beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then you prepare yourselves, repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it.” This seems to me to come from a Pre-Trib view, but I don't consider it conclusive.

Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Tertullian do not make definitive statements regarding the rapture in these citations. Commodianus speaks of those who will suffer under the antichrist in the third person, indicating that he did not identify with that group. Again, indicative, but not conclusive.

Writing of the antichrist:
We have Justin Martyr (c. 160, 1.253,254), Irenaeus (1.553, 554, 559, 560), Hippolytus (5.182, 184, 190, 206, 207, 214, 215), Tertullian (3.565), Commodianus (4.211), Origen (c. 248, 4.593), Cyprian (c. 250, 5.346, 349, 556), Victorinus (c. 280, 7.354, 356), and Lactantius (c. 304, 4.593-595, 5.204-219, 7.215).

Lactantius wrote a fair amount on this topic, and I have not completed reading what he wrote. From my brief survey, he stays rather generic on the identity of who it is that suffers under the antichrist, using such terms as “the righteous ones” and “the followers of truth”, I did find this that he wrote, that “two thirds of the worshippers of God will perish as well. But the third part, which will have proved faithful, will remain.” This seems to be in accord with Zechariah 13:8-9, of the Jews only. Justin Martyr identifies with those suffering under antichrist, saying “us Christians”. Cyprian does the same, saying “he will destroy us if we resist”. Commodianus speaks of antichrist’s dealings with the Jews only. The others do not make definitive statements.

The Woman Clothed in the Sun:
Hippolytus (5.217), Victorinus (7.355), and Methodias (c. 290, 6.336-337) wrote about this. Methodias and Victorinus allegorize this passage, to the point that it is not about the end of the age. Hippolytus and Victorinus both identify this person as the Church. Hippolytus is specific to say that it is the Church that is persecuted for 1260 days.

Some other relevant quotes:
Tatian (c. 160, vol 2 pg 67) “We believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consumation of all things.”
Melito (c. 170, 8.755-756) “The just will be preserved from His anger.”

All in all, it seems to me that the general tone and trend of the pre-Nicene writers is towards post-trib rapture. But by post-trib, that's none of this pre-wrath stuff. They were, so much as I've been able to find, post-trib, post-wrath, post-armaggedon, post everything.

Now, with that being said, I would add . . .

• While oftentimes highly venerated, these writers were not writing Scripture. Only Scripture is Scripture. Their interpretations are the interpretations of men, just as ours are, and are to be vigorously compared with Scripture.
• Major doctrines of Christianity have taken some great lengths of time to become understood. Just working out the Trinity took a couple of hundred years. Kind of like, "What just happened???" Is there any wonder that eschatology (the study of last things) is the last major doctrine of Scripture to be worked out?.
• There are some fairly serious matters some of these people were flat out wrong about. Take, for instance, Irenaeus writing about church structure and 'government'. He basically imported the OT priesthood into the NT assembly.
• The collection of early church writings may or may not be actually representative of what the early church on the whole thought. These are simple the writings we have available today. It could be random sampling, and it could be cherry-picked. We don't actually know, nor can we know.

Personally, I think the primary value in reading this early church writers is to see what a mixed bag they were, just like we are today. So many had so many different ideas about things, just like we do. I think it's always interesting to get different points of view, and they had some pretty different points of view!

Love in Christ,
Mark

On "Pseudo-Ephraim", of course being pseidopigrapha, we take it with grain of salt. And then there is the Syriac/Latin distinction, as the Latin appears to take a definite pre-trib stance, while the Syriac (quoted above) does not. But are we to now debate which version of a pseudopigrapha???

But the point is, a pre-trib statement exists long before Darby or Irving. But a greater point is, it doesn't really matter. What matters is,

Does the Bible teach it?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Cyprian - ""...the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..."

That doesn't show a pre-trib rapture.

That doesn't show a really good grasp on prophetic understanding, either . . .

And that's also a common thread in these early church writers. They thought it was coming at that time, and was already happening. But it wasn't. These guys aren't really authoratative.

Only Scripture is Scripture.

 

[veteran]

That doesn't show a really good grasp on prophetic understanding, either . . .

And that's also a common thread in these early church writers. They thought it was coming at that time, and was already happening. But it wasn't. These guys aren't really authoratative.

Only Scripture is Scripture.

I don't have any problem understanding how the early Church fathers, especially of the 1st - 2nd centuries, were agreed about the Antichrist coming first with a time of great tribulation upon the saints, and then Christ's coming and our gathering after that. When they spoke of great trials and tribulations upon the saints, that's a given that they were agreed Christ's coming and our gathering being after the Antichrist's appearance first.

Where their divisions appear to be strongest, was with the identity of the final Antichrist and the ten horned beast idea.

Thus they are... authoritive with being in agreement about the 'order' and 'type' of end times events.

 

[mark s]

I don't have any problem understanding how the early Church fathers, especially of the 1st - 2nd centuries, were agreed about the Antichrist coming first with a time of great tribulation upon the saints, and then Christ's coming and our gathering after that. When they spoke of great trials and tribulations upon the saints, that's a given that they were agreed Christ's coming and our gathering being after the Antichrist's appearance first.

Where their divisions appear to be strongest, was with the identity of the final Antichrist and the ten horned beast idea.

Thus they are... authoritive with being in agreement about the 'order' and 'type' of end times events.

The times they were going through, its easy to understand how they thought the great tribulation was upon them. But that shows how they didn't truly understand the signs, and the prophecies, in their finer points. If they did, they would have realized that it was not yet. They had a rough understanding, that was all. That being true, I can only disagree that they should be considered authoritative, And again, only Scripture is Scripture. Let the Bible be true . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

The times they were going through, its easy to understand how they thought the great tribulation was upon them. But that shows how they didn't truly understand the signs, and the prophecies, in their finer points. If they did, they would have realized that it was not yet. They had a rough understanding, that was all. That being true, I can only disagree that they should be considered authoritative, And again, only Scripture is Scripture. Let the Bible be true . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

I really don't see differences with their generations of time as changing any... of the order or type of events written in God's Word for the end. That kind of info they had then, just as we do today.

The only differences I see, is how today, we can see more of the finer details like you said. It's obvious they would not be accurate in determining then the ten horn structure, simply because what is manifesting today didn't yet exist in their days, at least not on the globalist level it has today. Yet in the reformers era, they understood about Antichrist, but they could only assign him to one they could see and they thought based on events of their time. That did not change their witnesses to the order and pattern types of the prophecies.

 

[wigglytug]

how do i know he's not the one who's lying or twisting the truth?

because he isnt the one thes twisting the words of early church fathers and scholars and taking them out of context

Here is a summary of citations I've been able to find from the pre-Nicene writers:


Irenaeus (circa 180 ad, Vol. 1 pg 558) and Tertullian (c. 210, Vol. 3, pgs 231, 455, 462, 565, 575) specifically wrote of the rapture. None of these citations contain a definitive statement regarding the timing of the rapture.

Of the Great Tribulation:
Hermas (c. 150 Vol 2 pg 11, 18), Irenaeus (vol 1.558, Hippolytus (c. 200 vol 5.179,190, 217), Tertullian (3.565), and Commodianus (c. 240, 4.212) wrote.
Hermas (Vol. 2 pg 11) said, “This beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then you prepare yourselves, repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it.” This seems to me to come from a Pre-Trib view, but I don't consider it conclusive.

Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Tertullian do not make definitive statements regarding the rapture in these citations. Commodianus speaks of those who will suffer under the antichrist in the third person, indicating that he did not identify with that group. Again, indicative, but not conclusive.

Writing of the antichrist:
We have Justin Martyr (c. 160, 1.253,254), Irenaeus (1.553, 554, 559, 560), Hippolytus (5.182, 184, 190, 206, 207, 214, 215), Tertullian (3.565), Commodianus (4.211), Origen (c. 248, 4.593), Cyprian (c. 250, 5.346, 349, 556), Victorinus (c. 280, 7.354, 356), and Lactantius (c. 304, 4.593-595, 5.204-219, 7.215).

Lactantius wrote a fair amount on this topic, and I have not completed reading what he wrote. From my brief survey, he stays rather generic on the identity of who it is that suffers under the antichrist, using such terms as “the righteous ones” and “the followers of truth”, I did find this that he wrote, that “two thirds of the worshippers of God will perish as well. But the third part, which will have proved faithful, will remain.” This seems to be in accord with Zechariah 13:8-9, of the Jews only. Justin Martyr identifies with those suffering under antichrist, saying “us Christians”. Cyprian does the same, saying “he will destroy us if we resist”. Commodianus speaks of antichrist’s dealings with the Jews only. The others do not make definitive statements.

The Woman Clothed in the Sun:
Hippolytus (5.217), Victorinus (7.355), and Methodias (c. 290, 6.336-337) wrote about this. Methodias and Victorinus allegorize this passage, to the point that it is not about the end of the age. Hippolytus and Victorinus both identify this person as the Church. Hippolytus is specific to say that it is the Church that is persecuted for 1260 days.

Some other relevant quotes:
Tatian (c. 160, vol 2 pg 67) “We believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consumation of all things.”
Melito (c. 170, 8.755-756) “The just will be preserved from His anger.”

All in all, it seems to me that the general tone and trend of the pre-Nicene writers is towards post-trib rapture. But by post-trib, that's none of this pre-wrath stuff. They were, so much as I've been able to find, post-trib, post-wrath, post-armaggedon, post everything.

Now, with that being said, I would add . . .

• While oftentimes highly venerated, these writers were not writing Scripture. Only Scripture is Scripture. Their interpretations are the interpretations of men, just as ours are, and are to be vigorously compared with Scripture.
• Major doctrines of Christianity have taken some great lengths of time to become understood. Just working out the Trinity took a couple of hundred years. Kind of like, "What just happened???" Is there any wonder that eschatology (the study of last things) is the last major doctrine of Scripture to be worked out?.
• There are some fairly serious matters some of these people were flat out wrong about. Take, for instance, Irenaeus writing about church structure and 'government'. He basically imported the OT priesthood into the NT assembly.
• The collection of early church writings may or may not be actually representative of what the early church on the whole thought. These are simple the writings we have available today. It could be random sampling, and it could be cherry-picked. We don't actually know, nor can we know.

Personally, I think the primary value in reading this early church writers is to see what a mixed bag they were, just like we are today. So many had so many different ideas about things, just like we do. I think it's always interesting to get different points of view, and they had some pretty different points of view!

Love in Christ,
Mark

On "Pseudo-Ephraim", of course being pseidopigrapha, we take it with grain of salt. And then there is the Syriac/Latin distinction, as the Latin appears to take a definite pre-trib stance, while the Syriac (quoted above) does not. But are we to now debate which version of a pseudopigrapha???

But the point is, a pre-trib statement exists long before Darby or Irving. But a greater point is, it doesn't really matter. What matters is,

Does the Bible teach it?

Love in Christ,
Mark



That doesn't show a really good grasp on prophetic understanding, either . . .

And that's also a common thread in these early church writers. They thought it was coming at that time, and was already happening. But it wasn't. These guys aren't really authoratative.

Only Scripture is Scripture.

no the latin version doesnt teach rapture either see this http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm

 

[veteran]

because he isnt the one thes twisting the words of early church fathers and scholars and taking them out of context


no the latin version doesnt teach rapture either see this http://www.bible.ca/...arby-1830ad.htm

Right, the Pre-trib ideas are not in the Latin translation either. Pre-tribbers get confused on that because the word 'rapture' comes from the Latin language word 'raptus' for Greek 'harpazo'. One can agree there will be a 'rapture' without it automatically meaning a Pre-tribulational type rapture. The Pre-trib schools have adopted the word 'rapture' for their stance and promoted it with just using the word 'rapture' by itself so that today when many hear 'rapture', they think it means Pre-trib.

 

[Trekson]

Hi, I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution".
Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.
The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second
"
Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things intpo the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth
a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "
...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)
Hippolytus -
"Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary (Antichrist)...that refers to the 1260 days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the the Church" Treatise on Christ and the Antichrist AD 60, 61
Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli
"...That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God...Since, then, the scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the christian hope in the very end of the world..." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv cf. Scorpiace xii
Cyprian - commenting on the tribulation in the Olivet Discourse - "
With the exhortation of His foreseeing word, instructing, and teaching and preparing and strengthening the people of His church for all endurance of things to come." Treatise VII
Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

[sup]251[/sup] For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein."

[sup]256[/sup] This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.257
And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour

339 shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.
2. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions."

340 For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding.341 The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature;
The little boy, therefore, who guided Samson by the hand,

46 pre-typified John the Baptist, who showed to the people the faith in Christ. And the house in which they were assembled signifies the world, in which dwell the various heathen and unbelieving nations, offering sacrifice to their idols. Moreover, the two pillars are the two covenants. The fact, then, of Samson leaning himself upon the pillars, [indicates] this, that the people, when instructed, recognized the mystery of Christ.
XXVIII.
"And the man of God said, Where did it fall? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in there, and the iron floated."

47 This was a sign that souls should be borne aloft (a0nagwgh=syuxw=n) through the instrumentality of wood, upon which He suffered who can lead those souls aloft that follow His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact, that when the holy soul of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies.48 For just as the wood, which is the lighter body, was submerged in the water; but the iron, the heavier one, floated: so, when the Word of God became one with flesh, by a physical and hypostatic union, the heavy and terrestrial [part], having been rendered immortal, was borne up into heaven, by the divine nature, after the resurrection.

 

[veteran]

One of the problems today is that some Pre-tribulational scholars are trying to 'revise' what the early Church fathers said about the Church going through the great tribulation our Lord Jesus foretold.

Those men are 'wolves' dressed in sheep's clothing, having crept into Christ's Body today. It is very easy for the fearful to get swayed into their Pre-trib secret rapture doctrines, and those wolves know it.

God first hinted at the idea of foolish prophets over His people that hunt souls to make them fly (see Ezekiel 13:20-23). God referred to those as foxes in the desert. They say, "The LORD saith: and The LORD hath not sent them..." (Ezek.13:6).

 

[wigglytug]

well take a look at what these people are saying about ireanus....holy historical revisionisms batman! http://www.fresh-hope.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8286

 

[blessedhope]

Darby>What> Yes the Early church did teach the rapture> Its Todays Church{APOSATE} that that laughs at it >something to think about.

 

[blessedhope]

1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief

 

[blessedhope]

Its very intro that the Apostated Church that is here and now preaches a kingdom on earth thing. Because they are apostate and have lost their way, For our kingdom is in heaven and not of this earth.The church is of heaven and Israel is of Earth but most people are thought of the kingdom of the church is of this earth, but this is not what the bible states. Enjoy.

 

[blessedhope]

One of the problems today is that some Pre-tribulational scholars are trying to 'revise' what the early Church fathers said about the Church going through the great tribulation our Lord Jesus foretold.
BS!

 

[blessedhope]

Chapter 12






1


And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Matt 24:21 Mark 13:19




2


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




3


And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.




4


But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.




5


Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.




6


And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?




7


And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.




8


And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?




9


And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. And as I see it the puzzle is coming together!