What we can prove

[face2face]

If we confine our thoughts to the book of the Acts of the Apostles in which we have a total of nine preaching lectures (Acts 2:22‐42, 3:12‐26, 7:2‐56, 8:30‐39, 10:34‐48, 13:1539, 17:22‐31, 24:14‐21, 26:2‐27), revealing a list of "core doctrines" presented repeatedly:

- The Bible: the word of God, divinely inspired
- One God: the Father and Creator; the Holy Spirit, His power
- Jesus: the Son of God
- Jesus: a mortal man
- Jesus: his perfect life, sacrifice
- Jesus: his resurrection, glorification, and ascension
- Christ as mediator
- The second coming
- Resurrection and judgment
- Promises to Abraham: inheritance of the land
- Promises to David: his kingdom restored
- Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism
- One body: fellowship and breaking of bread

Nowhere within these nine discourses do we find trinitarian theology being taught or preached. In fact, its quiet the opposite.

Months of preaching before thousands of people, yet no mention of the Trinity , or the deity of Christ. Why not? Trinitarians respond that Acts doesn’t record everything the apostles said at every preaching event. Although true, this does not answer the question. Why would the apostles be silent on the subject of Jesus’ deity, particularly if they believed it to be an essential doctrine?

Trinitarians cannot explain this. The Trinity would have been the most important and groundbreaking doctrine of the day, yet we find no mention of it. Nor do we find any evidence of first‐century Christians persecuted for believing that Jesus is God. We do find them persecuted for believing Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Law of Moses has been superseded by a new covenant (e.g. Acts 6:11, 14). We do find riots and assassination attempts resulting from the Jews’ reaction to the Gospel message. But where is the uproar against the notion of a Messiah who is also a God‐man? Where is the backlash against a triune God? There is no such uproar; there is no such backlash; there is no outcry against Trinitarian concepts. On the Trinity and the deity of Christ, the preaching record and the Jewish response are both silent. In light of the Jews’ response to the Gospel message, this is inexplicable unless proto‐Trinitarian doctrines were not preached at all. And if they were not preached, why weren’t they preached?

F2F,
Perhaps we could start another thread to explore these ideas. I am not very familiar with Christadelphians. While I do feel Trinitarian theology most appropriately deals with the NT teaching, (I think John 1 strongly shows Christ's divinity, but certainly isn't the fundamental text for the persons of the Triune God) I wouldn't argue that a Modalist (for instance) cannot know the grace of God. Yet, I do feel Christ's divinity is a foundational doctrine. From what you are proposing, it would seem you would hold a similar position to Apollinarianists or Patripassianists. Is that accurate?

Once again I enjoy your openeness and honesty, refreshing.

Why do you believe Jesus' divinity (his pre-existence), is an foundation doctrine when once again the subject is given no air time throughout the Apostles speeches?

The core message from Acts is Jesus, a human (Son of Man) raised and ressurected to life eternal.

In regards to Apollinarianism, I believe Jesus Christ was fully human and possessed a human mind though resisted its prompting to sin. The wrestling over the cup of suffering is one such instance were we see the battle of two minds. Jesus Christ accepting/submitting to the will of his Father and turning from his own will is something he did continually throughout his life. The Apostle James (and others) deal with the two minds in his epistle (James 1:8). Romans 8 is another chapter dealing with the two minds. How do we reconcile God being Jesus while in possession of a mind at odds against His own?

We find Trinitarians approach Scripture with a priori assumptions about its meaning and impose them onto the text. Personally I am interested in what the Bible is teaching rather than the teachings of men. The above list can be well established with strong Bible evidence and without special pleading.

F2F

 

[FHII]

F2F

I'm not a trinity believer either. I believe in the father, that Jesus was god in the flesh and a manifestation of God, and of course the holy spirit which is the spirit of truth. I just refuse to believe they are separate persons.

 

[newbirth]

F2F

I'm not a trinity believer either. I believe in the father, that Jesus was god in the flesh and a manifestation of God, and of course the holy spirit which is the spirit of truth. I just refuse to believe they are separate persons.

God is not flesh and blood...God was in Christ...
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God sent his Son ...Jesus is the Son of God...the only man born that could contain the fullness of the spirit of God...


Colossians 2:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

 

[epostle1]

If we confine our thoughts to the book of the Acts of the Apostles in which we have a total of nine preaching lectures (Acts 2:22‐42, 3:12‐26, 7:2‐56, 8:30‐39, 10:34‐48, 13:1539, 17:22‐31, 24:14‐21, 26:2‐27), revealing a list of "core doctrines" presented repeatedly:

We get a better picture of we read the Epistles in the light of the Gospels, not the other way around.

What are the words for Baptism?

- The Bible: the word of God, divinely inspired
- One God: the Father and Creator; the Holy Spirit, His power
- Jesus: the Son of God
- Jesus: a mortal man
- Jesus: his perfect life, sacrifice
- Jesus: his resurrection, glorification, and ascension
- Christ as mediator
- The second coming
- Resurrection and judgment
- Promises to Abraham: inheritance of the land
- Promises to David: his kingdom restored
- Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism
- One body: fellowship and breaking of bread

Nowhere within these nine discourses do we find trinitarian theology being taught or preached. In fact, its quiet the opposite.

Months of preaching before thousands of people, yet no mention of the Trinity , or the deity of Christ. Why not? Trinitarians respond that Acts doesn’t record everything the apostles said at every preaching event. Although true, this does not answer the question. Why would the apostles be silent on the subject of Jesus’ deity, particularly if they believed it to be an essential doctrine?

Silent?
John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

Trinitarians cannot explain this. The Trinity would have been the most important and groundbreaking doctrine of the day, yet we find no mention of it.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
also
"And forthwith coming up out of the water he saw the Heavens opened and the Spirit as a Dove descending and remaining on Him. And there came a Voice from Heaven; 'Thou art My Beloved Son; in Thee I am well pleased'." St. Mark 1:10-11

Nor do we find any evidence of first‐century Christians persecuted for believing that Jesus is God. We do find them persecuted for believing Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Law of Moses has been superseded by a new covenant (e.g. Acts 6:11, 14). We do find riots and assassination attempts resulting from the Jews’ reaction to the Gospel message. But where is the uproar against the notion of a Messiah who is also a God‐man? Where is the backlash against a triune God? There is no such uproar; there is no such backlash; there is no outcry against Trinitarian concepts. On the Trinity and the deity of Christ, the preaching record and the Jewish response are both silent. In light of the Jews’ response to the Gospel message, this is inexplicable unless proto‐Trinitarian doctrines were not preached at all. And if they were not preached, why weren’t they preached?

The Apostles preached the Trinity every time someone was baptized. They followed Jesus' instructions on what to say. The term "trinity" came later.

Divinity:
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin."
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110). (a student of John the Apostle)

Trinity
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove."
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

Once again I enjoy your openeness and honesty, refreshing.

Why do you believe Jesus' divinity (his pre-existence), is an foundation doctrine when once again the subject is given no air time throughout the Apostles speeches?

I think you are presupposing.

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

The core message from Acts is Jesus, a human (Son of Man) raised and ressurected to life eternal.

What authority determines what core message or discourses are essential and which are not?

In regards to Apollinarianism, I believe Jesus Christ was fully human and possessed a human mind though resisted its prompting to sin. The wrestling over the cup of suffering is one such instance were we see the battle of two minds. Jesus Christ accepting/submitting to the will of his Father and turning from his own will is something he did continually throughout his life. The Apostle James (and others) deal with the two minds in his epistle (James 1:8). Romans 8 is another chapter dealing with the two minds. How do we reconcile God being Jesus while in possession of a mind at odds against His own?

Apollinarianism was a 4th-century explanation of the nature of Jesus Christ that was rejected by the Christian church. Its author, Apollinaris of Laodicea (310-90), trying to arrive at a formula that would explain how Jesus could be both human and divine, taught that human beings were composed of body, soul, and spirit, and that in Jesus the human spirit was replaced by the Logos, or the second person of the Trinity. This teaching was opposed by Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Gregory of Nyssa because it implied that Christ was not fully human. Apollinarianism was declared a heresy by the First Council of Constantinople in 381.



Teachings always predate terms. The term "trinity" was formulated based on what was always believed.
Theophilus was bishop of Antioch, and use the Greek “trias”, which was Latinized into “trinitas” about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term of course, had been in use before his time.

Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi).
In the next century the term is in general use,
but the teaching is in the deposit of faith from the Apostles.

 

[newbirth]

Teachings always predate terms. The term "trinity" was formulated based on what was always believed.
Theophilus was bishop of Antioch, and use the Greek “trias”, which was Latinized into “trinitas” about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term of course, had been in use before his time.

Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi).
In the next century the term is in general use,
but the teaching is in the deposit of faith from the Apostles.

false teaching always pre-date terms...the teaching is not in scripture...the term is not in scripture...trinitarians injected it into the scripture...but were exposed.."comma johannine"

 

[Barrd]

false teaching always pre-date terms...the teaching is not in scripture...the term is not in scripture...trinitarians injected it into the scripture...but were exposed.."comma johannine"

Our good brother Kepha has shown you the truth from the Bible.
Yet you continue to reject it.
The term "trinity" may not be in the Bible, but there are terms that are in the Bible that indicate Christ's divinity.
Most of us know that the term "Elohim" refers to a plurality...God is plural.
Most of us realize that "Godhead" is the term that describes this plurality.
And we understand that:

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

definitely makes Him divine.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[brakelite]

What can we prove? Definitively? Without debate or argument? Not a lot really, except one. There is a God. Who He is, His nature, even His purposes are all up for grabs, along with everything else, because there will always be someone who will argue, debate, disagree, and not believe even that which is placed under their nose. God has deliberately left open the option to disagree and not believe. That is why the church developed as it did over the last 2000 years. It is why there are today tens of thousands of denominations, independents, home churches and internet forums which all disagree over at least one and usually more doctrines, with all participants swearing black and blue that the Bible backs them up. Oh, except for Catholicism. For the Catholic, tradition trumps scripture if the bosses say so. And of course there will be some who will debate that.
As for the nature of God, before we tackle the trinity, we must settle on the nature of Christ, because before settling on the nature of the Holy Spirit, the trinity stands or falls first on how you view Christ.
If Christ is not God, then the trinity is null and void.
If Christ is God, then we need to decide why, and does our conclusion on why harmonize with the standard trinitarian formula?

So really, rather than proving anything, because everyone here will disagree with at least one point I make, all I can offer is my perspective, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"
Starting with...1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So, first point to be taken from the above...we have two separate individual personalities. The Father being the source of all things, and what we are comes from the Father, but through Jesus.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

Jesus, a separate personality that pre-existed creation, and He called God His Father.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Next, we have one of those persons, Jesus or whatever He was known as before His incarnation, becoming flesh, a pre-existent only begotten Son of God, a unique individual personality coming into this world and becoming a man. This cannot be a son such as Adam...he was hand-crafted...nor can we place Jesus among the angels for they were created sons...and as for man, well because we are fallen and thus lost our natural sonship through our sinful declaration to another, we are children, once saved, by adoption. So Jesus is the only true natural born Son of God.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What kind of flesh was Christ born into...sinless Adam before the fall, or fallen Adam...clearly, according to the above scriptures, He was born into the fallen human race, becoming as one of us, weakened by 1000s of years of human genetic degradation, "tempted in all points such as we are"...."yet without sin".

However, so far, what does that evidence above tell us regarding the concept of Jesus being addressed as 'God'? If we are to be consistent with nature, and with our understanding of father/son relationships, and in conjunction with the above scripture which declares the Father as being the source of all things, then we can conclude that whatever nature the Son has, it must be of a similar character to the Father, and if the Father's nature is 'good' and perfect, then so also is the Son's, and not only that, but the Son must also inherit the divine nature of the Father...the omnipresence...omniscience...and omnipotence...along with whatever other prerogatives and attributes that contribute to deity.
So does the above gel with scripture?

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

I can of my own self do nothing...this says it all. Everything came to Jesus from His Father, even life itself, yet the very same life that the Father has...eternal and self sustaining.

In conclusion, I am able to declare with full confidence and assurance, without adding any extra-biblcal interpretation , that through inheritance and the natural attributes and prerogatives received as an only begotten Son, that Jesus Christ, or Jeshua HaMessiach, can lawfully and rightly be called God and be worshiped as such.

Those of you who understand the traditional and current understanding of the place the Son of God holds within the concept of trinity, does the above fit squarely and securely and in harmony with that concept?

 

[face2face]

If Christ is not God, then the trinity is null and void.
If Christ is God, then we need to decide why, and does our conclusion on why harmonize with the standard trinitarian formula?

Take this thread as a good example of why the trinity must fall over.
A trinitarian will endeavor to daisy chain a few verses, or twist a word or two to establish the very complex formula.
Kepha tried by posting up verses but failed to show the complex formula from these passages.
Overall I am unimpressed by their efforts.
A better response would be "yes the Acts of the Apostles are silent on the doctrine and clearly was unknown to them at that stage"
F2F

 

[brakelite]

This would, I believe, be the more honest response. If a so-called fundamental doctrine of Christianity needs a convoluted gymnastic type routine to come to a conclusion that is then termed a "mystery", it is astonishing the Christian faith actually has any converts. I am convinced that if Christianity embraced 1 Corinthians 8:6 and left it at that, there would be thousands of more Jewish and Muslim converts than we are seeing today.


A better response would be "yes the Acts of the Apostles are silent on the doctrine and clearly was unknown to them at that stage"
F2F

 

[face2face]

This would, I believe, be the more honest response. If a so-called fundamental doctrine of Christianity needs a convoluted gymnastic type routine to come to a conclusion that is then termed a "mystery", it is astonishing the Christian faith actually has any converts. I am convinced that if Christianity embraced 1 Corinthians 8:6 and left it at that, there would be thousands of more Jewish and Muslim converts than we are seeing today.


A better response would be "yes the Acts of the Apostles are silent on the doctrine and clearly was unknown to them at that stage"
F2F

I couldn't agree more with 1 Corinthians 8:6 which is based on OT teaching and not the theologians of this world.

 

[Barrd]

Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Here, Jesus proved Who He was, and the crowd standing around knew exactly what He was showing them.
Who can forgive sins but God only?
The answer, of course, is that only God has the authority to forgive sins.
And yet, Jesus went around all the time, saying "your sins are forgiven".
He healed all kinds of diseases.
He opened blind eyes.
He gave new strength to crippled legs.
He raised the dead.
He had the power to turn stones into bread.
He even controlled the elements...He could stop a raging storm by telling it to be still.
No man was ever able to do the things He did, either before, or since.
And what men have done, we have done "through Christ which strengthens us".

As the men in this story knew, for a man to say that he could forgive sins, would be blasphemy.

Unless, of course, that Man were our Immanuel....our God Incarnate...

 

[Barrd]

It is beyond ridiculous to think that we could ever wrap our finite minds around the nature of an Infinite God.
Even as we say such words as "omnipotent", "omniscient", or even "omnipresent"....we don't really understand them. "Can God," asks the skeptic, "create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it?"

I'd have better luck trying to explain quantum physics to my little Shih Tzu. He's a pretty smart little fellow, for a dog...

Could God, if He chose, clothe Himself in flesh and walk among men as a Man?
If you say He could not, then He is neither omnipotent, nor omniscient.
If you say that He could, then why would you reject the notion that He has done exactly that, for your sakes?

 

[face2face]

Could God, if He chose, clothe Himself in flesh and walk among men as a Man?
If you say He could not, then He is neither omnipotent, nor omniscient.
If you say that He could, then why would you reject the notion that He has done exactly that, for your sakes?

You do realise there are some things which are not possible with God because of His righteousness?
For instance God cannot lie. God cannot sin. God cannot dwell in a vile corrupting body, nor can that vile body stand in His presence. Some such reasons being His brightness consumes all flesh and His eyes will not look upon sin. Flesh nature and the pride of man cannot glory in His presence and doubtless many more reasons exist as to why God cannot become man.
Thankfully his Son which he raised up out of man was able to uphold His righteousness and declare it in the giving of his life and body.
NET provides a great verse for your consideration.

God publicly displayed Jesus at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate His (Yahweh) righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed Romans 3:24,25ESV

F2F

 

[Barrd]

You do realise there are some things which are not possible with God because of His righteousness?
For instance God cannot lie. God cannot sin. God cannot dwell in a vile corrupting body, nor can that vile body stand in His presence. Some such reasons being His brightness consumes all flesh and His eyes will not look upon sin. Flesh nature and the pride of man cannot glory in His presence and doubtless many more reasons exist as to why God cannot become man.
Thankfully his Son which he raised up out of man was able to uphold His righteousness and declare it in the giving of his life and body.
NET provides a great verse for your consideration.

God publicly displayed Jesus at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate His (Yahweh) righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed Romans 3:24,25ESV

F2F

So, you think that your Holy God can create evil....or is there another Divinity somewhere?....He can create these "vile, corrupting bodies" that He cannot stand to so much as look upon...but it would be impossible for Him to clothe Himself in flesh and walk among men? He can create filth, but He cannot stand to look at His own mess, is that it?

Your God is much too much of a wuss for me to worship. The God I know and love was (and is) more than willing to roll up His sleeves and get His hands dirty in order to redeem His children. No coward, He! He went looking for Satan, in His human form, to challenge him.

Your God may be Holy, but He is limited. His love is as weak as dishwater. He's basically useless in all His glory.
Seriously, do you pray to a God Who cannot bear to so much as look at you? How can He hear you? He is disgusted by you, what makes you think He'd want to hear your silly little complaints, anyway?

The real God is much more robust. He is Holy enough to get down on His knees with a basin of water and a towel, and wash the feet of His disciples. His glory is in His amazing love.
You can keep your porcelain god. Give me the Real Deal!

There is nothing at all "righteous" in demanding a human sacrifice...much less "displaying" it. Now, that is vile and corrupt...

 

[FHII]

Well, the bible says God did create evil.

I can also see the point that God can't stand ti look at us, but fortunately for us, our sins are covered up by the blood of Jesus.

 

[face2face]

Well, the bible says God did create evil.
I can also see the point that God can't stand ti look at us, but fortunately for us, our sins are covered up by the blood of Jesus.

True.

So, you think that your Holy God can create evil....or is there another Divinity somewhere?....He can create these "vile, corrupting bodies" that He cannot stand to so much as look upon...but it would be impossible for Him to clothe Himself in flesh and walk among men? He can create filth, but He cannot stand to look at His own mess, is that it?

Yes impossible.
Understanding God’s limitations will help and lead you to understand His righteousness. i.e. God cannot lie – there is no error in Him – so to use your above logic is to say “it is possible for God to lie” which of course would be wrong teaching of who God is.

Your God is much too much of a wuss for me to worship. The God I know and love was (and is) more than willing to roll up His sleeves and get His hands dirty in order to redeem His children. No coward, He! He went looking for Satan, in His human form, to challenge him.

This is rather unusual reasoning isn’t it?
I mean, we have the Scriptural message of God being in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and as I see our difference, you require God to be Christ, whereas I accept the Father in Spirit and in thought was in His Son.
And by the way God doesn’t have dirty hands ;)

Your God may be Holy, but He is limited. His love is as weak as dishwater. He's basically useless in all His glory.

Yes, and I would love to share the beautiy of His holiness if we had the opportunity.
It’s a shame your speech is without honour.

Seriously, do you pray to a God Who cannot bear to so much as look at you? How can He hear you? He is disgusted by you, what makes you think He'd want to hear your silly little complaints, anyway?

Not at all. Are you being serious now?
Your God loves sin? Your God is willing to accept your sins and delight in them?

The truth Barrd is God insists that our restoration in fellowship be directly related to our willingness to see the wickedness of our sin, to see our disobedience as He sees it (2 Chron. 7:14; 1 John 1:8, 10).

The real God is much more robust. He is Holy enough to get down on His knees with a basin of water and a towel, and wash the feet of His disciples. His glory is in His amazing love.
You can keep your porcelain god. Give me the Real Deal! There is nothing at all "righteous" in demanding a human sacrifice...much less "displaying" it. Now, that is vile and corrupt...

Yes God demanded a human sacrifice of Abraham not that He delighted in seeing a young lad slain but the principles of sacrifice and obedience is what He delights in.
The relatity which you teach I am sure is not accepted by many of your fellow Christians. They understand sin is disgusting to God. Though He shows grace to repentant sinners, He cannot look upon sin itself with the least degree of tolerance.

“But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. ‘There is no peace,’ says my God, ‘for the wicked’ ” (Isa. 57:20–21).

The wicked know not a son who of his own free will independent of God showed obedience unto death, and that the death of the cross, by one who so shares human nature as to be completely men’s representative in taking their sins upon him, these principles cannot be reconciled with the doctrine of the Trinity as defined in the creeds.

The eternal God cannot die like He cannot lie.

Failure on your part to see His righteous limitations can only mean a failure on your part to understand those things He delights in.

Search out His limitations and learn by them.

 

[Barrd]

Yes impossible.

I will not believe that. God created life, and He loves His creation.
God created evil. Now, don't ask me to explain why....I have my own ideas about that, but I don't claim to actually know the mind of God.

Understanding God’s limitations will help and lead you to understand His righteousness. i.e. God cannot lie – there is no error in Him – so to use your above logic is to say “it is possible for God to lie” which of course would be wrong teaching of who God is.

My God has no limitations. Could God lie? A better question is, why would He?

This is rather unusual reasoning isn’t it?
I mean, we have the Scriptural message of God being in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and as I see our difference, you require God to be Christ, whereas I accept the Father in Spirit and in thought was in His Son.
And by the way God doesn’t have dirty hands ;)

Your God, according to you, creates "vile corrupting bodies" that He cannot even bear to look upon. He creates filth, and then sends a man to go and die in order to clean up His mess.
The way I see it, your God's hands are covered with blood.

Yes, and I would love to share the beautiy of His holiness if we had the opportunity.

That's okay. I can see the beauty of His holiness, whenever I look at Christ.

It’s a shame your speech is without honour.

Because I am driven to my knees in awe of a God Who would lay aside His glory for love of His wayward children? Because I want to shout from the housetops that God, Himself, came to us to teach us how to live, and that He gave Himself to us, to redeem us from our own foolishness? Because LOVE, my friend, is truly Holy...

Not at all. Are you being serious now?

Very serious. You are the one who has said that, in God's eyes, you are a loathsome, filthy, corrupt bit of filth, right? He cannot stand to so much as look at you....what makes you think He wants to listen to you? Your vile complaints can be of no interest to Him....even the very sound of your disgusting voice grates on His Holy eardrums. Your God is much too Holy to bother Himself with a nasty, vile bit of garbage like you...
Going by your description of God, of course.

My God is Holy in that He loves you enough not only to hear you in your vile, corrupt state, but to reach out to you where you are, to save you.

Your God loves sin? Your God is willing to accept your sins and delight in them?

Of course not, no one ever even hinted at such a thing. My God can see past my sin, into my heart. He knows the woman I want to be, and He is willing to lend me His strength toward that end.

The truth Barrd is God insists that our restoration in fellowship be directly related to our willingness to see the wickedness of our sin, to see our disobedience as He sees it (2 Chron. 7:14; 1 John 1:8, 10).

Exactly.

Yes God demanded a human sacrifice of Abraham not that He delighted in seeing a young lad slain but the principles of sacrifice and obedience is what He delights in.

And didn't God also keep Abraham from harming the boy? Or did you miss that bit?

The relatity which you teach I am sure is not accepted by many of your fellow Christians. They understand sin is disgusting to God. Though He shows grace to repentant sinners, He cannot look upon sin itself with the least degree of tolerance.

My fellow Christians would be those who understand Who Jesus actually is. And yes, we understand that sin is disgusting to God. That is why He came here in Person to deal with it. That is the grace He has shown to repentant sinners.

“But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. ‘There is no peace,’ says my God, ‘for the wicked’ ” (Isa. 57:20–21).

Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

The wicked know not a son who of his own free will independent of God showed obedience unto death, and that the death of the cross, by one who so shares human nature as to be completely men’s representative in taking their sins upon him, these principles cannot be reconciled with the doctrine of the Trinity as defined in the creeds.

The wicked know not the true love of God, that He could and would step down from His throne so that He could put His Own blood on the altar of our salvation.

The eternal God cannot die like He cannot lie.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Failure on your part to see His righteous limitations can only mean a failure on your part to understand those things He delights in.

Failure on your part to accept His flawlessness can only mean a failure on your part to understand His great love. The thing He delights in the most is a gentle, loving heart...

Search out His limitations and learn by them.

Search out His love, and learn from Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

Quote
The eternal God cannot die like He cannot lie.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Yes, God cannot die,God is Spirit,, if God was to die, as if He could, than He would no longer exist, and if God doesnt exist, than neither will we. it is Him that keeps everything together.

 

[face2face]

Yes, God cannot die,God is Spirit

Yes as the Apostle Paul wrote "that no flesh should glory in His presence"
Those who believe He took on flesh may like to ponder its absurdity.
F2F

 

[epostle1]

Take this thread as a good example of why the trinity must fall over.
A trinitarian will endeavor to daisy chain a few verses, or twist a word or two to establish the very complex formula.

I think Jesus was quite explicit in Matthew 28:19, ""Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Kepha tried by posting up verses but failed to show the complex formula from these passages.

Showing the complexity of the Trinity was not my intention. The teaching of the Trinity comes from Jesus and the Apostles.You demanded proof texting and I gave it. The essense of the Trinitarian doctrine can be found in scripture, but the details required clarification at the Council of Nicae was necessary to refute the heresiarch Arius. (who denied the Trinity) Affirmations of the Trinity were necessary when Apollinarius was running around teaching that Jesus was not fully human. (a denial of the Trinity) Apollinarianism was declared a heresy by the First Council of Constantinople in 381. These guys were interpreting the Bible independently of the Church, as did every heretic.

Overall I am unimpressed by their efforts.
A better response would be "yes the Acts of the Apostles are silent on the doctrine and clearly was unknown to them at that stage"
F2F

What are the words for baptism?

A better response would be, "Since when does the Book of Acts contain comprehensive treatises on all aspects of the Christian faith?