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Whats the meaning?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Elf, Apr 2, 2008.

  1. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    Can anyone explain the meanings of these verses? John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."Mathew 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. In Romans 8:30, some will say God knew "For those whom He foreknew" those who would believe in the gospel so these are the ones He predestined (this is not the meaning of foreknowledge). But this would make no sense, Why would God predestine those who He knew would come on their own? Did God peek into the future to see what we would do first? If this were the case, why would He have to call them, "He also called" if He already saw them that would come? Could God have been wrong? John 6:44, No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws them. So all these people who God seen would come to Him, unfortunately cannot, because, they have to first be drawn by the Father.Only thing that makes sense is God is Sovereign, He chose His elect, not based on anything they have done or what they will do, but on God's choice of election. Since Adam, we are all born into sin (original sin) no one seeks God, from the womb we all go astray. And we have no genuine desire for Christ on our own, we are not spiritually sick, but "Dead". The only reason we come to God is because through His grace and mercy He chose some to be saved, and these (His elect) are drawn to Christ through the gospel, by the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. We will not come on our own, we have no desire, like David said Psalm 51:5 We were brought forth in iniquity and in sin we were born. But God in His mercy, while we were yet dead in sin, "MADE US ALIVE" together with Christ, Ephesians 2:1-5. We are saved by grace (unmerited favor, nothing we could ever do earned it) through faith. This is not even of us (we did not possess this, we were dead) it is a gift of God. Not based on anything we could do "not a result of works." Therefore, who can boast? No one! This should leave us speechless people, you who belong to Christ, it was ordained by God Himself. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me", not, amazing grace how sweet the sound that let me save myself. Well this is (partially) my take, with scripture. What does everyone else think? Can you back your belief with scripture?God Bless.
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Dont confuse predestination and free will God predestined some to do certain things to bring about his plan the rest have free will to chose to love God or not, one is sentenced to death that is Satan. God offers grace to all Christ died for all, all have sinnedif free will didnt exist it would not be love and above all God wants our love if it were not for free will true love isnt possable. True love cant not be forced it must be given freely
     
  3. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    Dont confuse predestination and free will God predestined some to do certain things to bring about his plan the rest have free will to chose to love God or not, one is sentenced to death that is Satan. God offers grace to all Christ died for all, all have sinnedif free will didnt exist it would not be love and above all God wants our love if it were not for free will true love isnt possable. True love cant not be forced it must be given freely
    I agree. Free will is not free will if the only choice is 'yes'. To be freewill you must also be able to say 'no'.
     
  4. zadzial

    zadzial New Member

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    (kriss;43931)
    Dont confuse predestination and free will God predestined some to do certain things to bring about his plan the rest have free will to chose to love God or not, one is sentenced to death that is Satan. God offers grace to all Christ died for all, all have sinnedif free will didnt exist it would not be love and above all God wants our love if it were not for free will true love isnt possable. True love cant not be forced it must be given freely
    What is your definition of "free will"? Is it not that one is free to choose without any external influences? You have said as much in your post. So let me ask then, does a slave have free will? Of course not. "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8:34"We know that the law is spiritual; But I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature." Romans 7:14-18.In the beginning, when everything was still good as God created it, Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose to obey God or not. They chose not to. Once sin entered the world humanity no longer had free will but instead was enslaved to sin. Therefore, if we are enslaved to sin, how can we choose God? We cannot, unless he first removes sin from us. Then we can see clearly to choose God. It is God who saves, who sets us free from our sin."To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father - to him be glory for ever and ever! Amen." Rev 1:5 "If you hold to my teachings, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free? "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed." John 8:31-36.You object to predestination because you say that if someone follows Christ all their life but have not been predestined they will not be saved. Let me ask you, how can someone follow Christ unless they have been freed from their sins? And once freed from your sins how can you do anything but follow Christ, not because you have to but because you want to. You may object and say, "But God has freed us from sin and we can choose to follow him or not." However consider this: If someone frees you from a life of slavery, will you not love them and show them your gratitude? "But join with me in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:9There is nothing we have done to earn salvation. It is all God. The fetching concept of "I may choose God or not" still places 'me' in the drivers seat. God is relegated to some kind of savings machine, at our beckon call to satisfy any whim we may have. "Now I shall deign to allow God to enter my life and make me filled with holiness and righteousness". The way of predestination is not a mockery of Love. It is Love. Why would God love us, who betray him with our most casual of thoughts? Who bicker like tired children over the placing of an apostrophe? Who argue the strength of one slightly different version of a text over another though the point remains the same? The most wonderful thing is that he does love us. He has no reason for whom he chooses, he simply selects. There is nothing in me that makes me a valuable asset. The valuable asset in me is Him. He takes me and makes me like Him. Then my reward for this is to be with Him for eternity, in his Presence. I can do nothing to please him save that which he enables me to do by the Spirit. Even then it is Him performing the act, not me. Praise be to God!
     
  5. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    (Elf;43927)
    Can anyone explain the meanings of these verses? John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."Mathew 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. In Romans 8:30, some will say God knew "For those whom He foreknew" those who would believe in the gospel so these are the ones He predestined (this is not the meaning of foreknowledge). But this would make no sense, Why would God predestine those who He knew would come on their own? Did God peek into the future to see what we would do first? If this were the case, why would He have to call them, "He also called" if He already saw them that would come? Could God have been wrong? John 6:44, No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws them. So all these people who God seen would come to Him, unfortunately cannot, because, they have to first be drawn by the Father.Only thing that makes sense is God is Sovereign, He chose His elect, not based on anything they have done or what they will do, but on God's choice of election. Since Adam, we are all born into sin (original sin) no one seeks God, from the womb we all go astray. And we have no genuine desire for Christ on our own, we are not spiritually sick, but "Dead". The only reason we come to God is because through His grace and mercy He chose some to be saved, and these (His elect) are drawn to Christ through the gospel, by the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. We will not come on our own, we have no desire, like David said Psalm 51:5 We were brought forth in iniquity and in sin we were born. But God in His mercy, while we were yet dead in sin, "MADE US ALIVE" together with Christ, Ephesians 2:1-5. We are saved by grace (unmerited favor, nothing we could ever do earned it) through faith. This is not even of us (we did not possess this, we were dead) it is a gift of God. Not based on anything we could do "not a result of works." Therefore, who can boast? No one! This should leave us speechless people, you who belong to Christ, it was ordained by God Himself. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me", not, amazing grace how sweet the sound that let me save myself. Well this is (partially) my take, with scripture. What does everyone else think? Can you back your belief with scripture?God Bless.
    [1] You quoted, "No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him" Jn 6:44.But in Jn 12: 32, Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME".God draws all people, and them that are open to His calling will come.[2]If you think Predestined in Romans 8: 29, Is that God choses certain people for salvation, You have to put the Bible in it's right context, Read on to v 32."If God spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for for us ALL".[3] At least nine times in the Bible, it says, God in not a respecter of people.And James 2: 9. Says, To be a respecter of people is sin. For God to chose one to salvation, and one to doom, is a respecter of people, Therefore God would be a sinner.[4] God wants everyone to be saved.1 John. 2: 2. 2 Peter 3: 9. Titus 2: 11. 1 Timothy 2: 4. 1 Timothy 4: 10--11. Says, God is the saviour of ALL Men,Then God commands us to teach this.If God commands us to teach that He wants everyone to be saved, [A] Then we should teach it. That does away with "Election. and being predestined to salvation".[5] God has chosen a body, and that body consists of anyone and everyone who will [From free choice] believe and receive God's salvation.
     
  6. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (zadzial;43949)
    What is your definition of "free will"? Is it not that one is free to choose without any external influences? You have said as much in your post. So let me ask then, does a slave have free will? Of course not. "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8:34"We know that the law is spiritual; But I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature." Romans 7:14-18.In the beginning, when everything was still good as God created it, Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose to obey God or not. They chose not to. Once sin entered the world humanity no longer had free will but instead was enslaved to sin. Therefore, if we are enslaved to sin, how can we choose God? We cannot, unless he first removes sin from us. Then we can see clearly to choose God. It is God who saves, who sets us free from our sin."To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father - to him be glory for ever and ever! Amen." Rev 1:5 "If you hold to my teachings, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free? "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed." John 8:31-36.You object to predestination because you say that if someone follows Christ all their life but have not been predestined they will not be saved. Let me ask you, how can someone follow Christ unless they have been freed from their sins? And once freed from your sins how can you do anything but follow Christ, not because you have to but because you want to. You may object and say, "But God has freed us from sin and we can choose to follow him or not." However consider this: If someone frees you from a life of slavery, will you not love them and show them your gratitude? "But join with me in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:9There is nothing we have done to earn salvation. It is all God. The fetching concept of "I may choose God or not" still places 'me' in the drivers seat. God is relegated to some kind of savings machine, at our beckon call to satisfy any whim we may have. "Now I shall deign to allow God to enter my life and make me filled with holiness and righteousness". The way of predestination is not a mockery of Love. It is Love. Why would God love us, who betray him with our most casual of thoughts? Who bicker like tired children over the placing of an apostrophe? Who argue the strength of one slightly different version of a text over another though the point remains the same? The most wonderful thing is that he does love us. He has no reason for whom he chooses, he simply selects. There is nothing in me that makes me a valuable asset. The valuable asset in me is Him. He takes me and makes me like Him. Then my reward for this is to be with Him for eternity, in his Presence. I can do nothing to please him save that which he enables me to do by the Spirit. Even then it is Him performing the act, not me. Praise be to God!
    Amen!
     
  7. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Elf, I agree with you and know where you are coming from. I do believe in predestination (God's sovereignty). However, before the free choicers chime in some more, let me say this. God works in eternity where there is no time or space as we know it, and we work in the "here and now". I believe that both can coexist----- think of it like those si-fi movies with parallel universes.How about a more mundane example? Ever fall head over heals with someone of the opposite sex? You were "chosen" in the sense that the event occurred where they ran into you. Before you knew that person, there was nobody to love. Their entry into your life was out of your control (like predestination). But once you met that person, there was an irresistible attraction. There's still free choice involved here, but in a way so compelling that it's "in the stars" so-to-speak. I think if we interpret the bible from a somewhat romantic view (like husband and wife) and with concepts involving the family, spiritual truths would be understood better. Why do you think Satan is trying to ruin the definition of the "traditional" marriage and family? Destroy that, and spiritual understanding goes out the window.
     
  8. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    Interesting, let me answer this part first.
     
  9. Morning_Joy

    Morning_Joy New Member

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    If God only chose some to be saved, then wouldn't that mean all the others are totally shut out from His presence and love, ever since they were born?
     
  10. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    First, if God wanted everyone to be saved, then, Everyone will be saved!
    II Peter 3
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
  11. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    Ok, back to the beginning. First by my explanation I in no way intend to insult you, you are entirely entitled to your opinion and belief. And I respect your belief. (Alanforchrist;43953)
    [1] You quoted, "No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him" Jn 6:44.But in Jn 12: 32, Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME".God draws all people, and them that are open to His calling will come.
    John 12:32, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." What does this mean? "That everyone by there free will will be saved and brought to heaven?" I don't think so! What does context say? John 12:20-36. v:20 Now there were certain "Greeks" among those who were going up to worship. Not only Jews but, Greeks also. v:31 the ruler of this world shall be cast out, The enemy can no longer deceive the Gentile nations. v:32, will draw all men to Myself. This is just a hint, check it out for yourself.---------- "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. All men, not Just the Jews, men from every tongue tribe and nation. In "context" it does not mean every person will be or can be saved, nor does it teach (in context) God wants all men to be saved.
    [2]If you think Predestined in Romans 8: 29, Is that God choses certain people for salvation, You have to put the Bible in it's right context, Read on to v 32."If God spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for for us ALL".
    ([​IMG] How will he not also with Him freely give us all things? Who is Paul talking about? Everyone in the world? Think about that, do you really believe that? ---Look at the next verse, here is your answer: Romans 8:33, Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;Paul is talking to and about the "elect" those who are saved! Romans 8:26, And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should. Whose weakness does the spirit help to pray, Everyone in the world? Or born again believers (elect)? This just supports my verse, thanks for the help. But to really keep this in context, read Romans Ch 8-9, actually the whole book.
    [3] At least nine times in the Bible, it says, God in not a respecter of people.
    First show me the nine times, in context.
    And James 2: 9. Says, To be a respecter of people is sin. For God to chose one to salvation, and one to doom, is a respecter of people, Therefore God would be a sinner.
    This does not even relate to the issue at hand, Consider looking this verse over in its context, notice James 2:1-6 Even verse 7: Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
    [4] God wants everyone to be saved.
    Ok lets have a look.
    1 John. 2:2. 2 Peter 3:9. Titus 2: 11. 1 Timothy 2: 4.
    Arminian view is: Christ is the propitiation for all sins of all Christians, and not for Christians only, but also for every single person in all places and at all times. The Reformed view is:Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all Christians to which John was writing, and not only them, but for all Christians throughout the world, Jew, Gentile, at all times and in all places. After all, words do have their limits to their meaning by context, don't you agree? John 11:49-52, But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish." Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
    1 Timothy 4: 10--11. Says, God is the saviour of ALL Men,
    "Saviour of all people" The general call to repentance and salvation is extended to all people, Matthew 11:28, Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.--- "Especially of those who believe" Salvation is God's gift, in particular to those who trust His provision in Christ Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen.", Romans 8:30, and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.---To believe in this in another way would be universalism, and scripture completely destroys universalism!
    Then God commands us to teach this.If God commands us to teach that He wants everyone to be saved, [A] Then we should teach it. That does away with "Election. and being predestined to salvation".
    This is universalism.
    [5] God has chosen a body, and that body consists of anyone and everyone who will [From free choice] believe and receive God's salvation.
    An empty statement! The true teaching of scripture is "Limited Atonement" or better said, "Particular Atonement". Who really limits the atonement? Arminians or Calvinists? --Arminians say Christ died for no particular person, His death was not effective for any particular person or persons, and the hope is some will come and be saved, but this is not guaranteed! Calvinism says, Christ's death was effective for individual persons (a multitude) and they will be saved, they cannot be anything but saved. Guaranteed! And all those who are saved, they are saved infallibly and their salvation is secure. ---Who is it that really limits the atonement?
     
  12. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Alanforchrist;43953)
    [1] You quoted, "No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him" Jn 6:44.But in Jn 12: 32, Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME".God draws all people, and them that are open to His calling will come.[2]If you think Predestined in Romans 8: 29, Is that God choses certain people for salvation, You have to put the Bible in it's right context, Read on to v 32."If God spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for for us ALL".[3] At least nine times in the Bible, it says, God in not a respecter of people.And James 2: 9. Says, To be a respecter of people is sin. For God to chose one to salvation, and one to doom, is a respecter of people, Therefore God would be a sinner.[4] God wants everyone to be saved.1 John. 2: 2. 2 Peter 3: 9. Titus 2: 11. 1 Timothy 2: 4. 1 Timothy 4: 10--11. Says, God is the saviour of ALL Men,Then God commands us to teach this.If God commands us to teach that He wants everyone to be saved, [A] Then we should teach it. That does away with "Election. and being predestined to salvation".[5] God has chosen a body, and that body consists of anyone and everyone who will [From free choice] believe and receive God's salvation.
    (kriss;43931)
    Dont confuse predestination and free will God predestined some to do certain things to bring about his plan the rest have free will to chose to love God or not, one is sentenced to death that is Satan. God offers grace to all Christ died for all, all have sinnedif free will didnt exist it would not be love and above all God wants our love if it were not for free will true love isnt possable. True love cant not be forced it must be given freely
    The only reason we love God, is because He first loved us!
     
  13. Morning_Joy

    Morning_Joy New Member

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    Elf--Did you consider the question I previously posted?Does limited atonement teach that everyone else out of the elect are doomed the moment they are born?
     
  14. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (tim_from_pa;44037)
    Elf, I agree with you and know where you are coming from. I do believe in predestination (God's sovereignty). However, before the free choicers chime in some more, let me say this. God works in eternity where there is no time or space as we know it, and we work in the "here and now". I believe that both can coexist----- think of it like those si-fi movies with parallel universes.
    Interesting. I also believe in "Divine Providence"
    How about a more mundane example? Ever fall head over heals with someone of the opposite sex? You were "chosen" in the sense that the event occurred where they ran into you. Before you knew that person, there was nobody to love. Their entry into your life was out of your control (like predestination). But once you met that person, there was an irresistible attraction. There's still free choice involved here, but in a way so compelling that it's "in the stars" so-to-speak. I think if we interpret the bible from a somewhat romantic view (like husband and wife) and with concepts involving the family, spiritual truths would be understood better. Why do you think Satan is trying to ruin the definition of the "traditional" marriage and family? Destroy that, and spiritual understanding goes out the window.
    Wow, I never heard it explained this way before. I am going to chew on this for awhile. Thank you for your wise and kind words, they are indeed uplifting and refreshing to hear.God Bless
     
  15. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (tim_from_pa;44037)
    Elf, I agree with you and know where you are coming from. I do believe in predestination (God's sovereignty). However, before the free choicers chime in some more, let me say this. God works in eternity where there is no time or space as we know it, and we work in the "here and now". I believe that both can coexist----- think of it like those si-fi movies with parallel universes.How about a more mundane example? Ever fall head over heals with someone of the opposite sex? You were "chosen" in the sense that the event occurred where they ran into you. Before you knew that person, there was nobody to love. Their entry into your life was out of your control (like predestination). But once you met that person, there was an irresistible attraction. There's still free choice involved here, but in a way so compelling that it's "in the stars" so-to-speak. I think if we interpret the bible from a somewhat romantic view (like husband and wife) and with concepts involving the family, spiritual truths would be understood better. Why do you think Satan is trying to ruin the definition of the "traditional" marriage and family? Destroy that, and spiritual understanding goes out the window.
    (Morning_Joy;44039)
    If God only chose some to be saved, then wouldn't that mean all the others are totally shut out from His presence and love, ever since they were born?
    Answer this question for yourself with scripture. Start here, Romans 9: 14, What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!--- Or here, Romans 9:19, You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?". By the way, here is your answer, Romans 9:20, On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?------------------Guess I am jumping around? Ok, forget all that and start here, Romans 9:11-24, And just to be sure this is not just meant for the Jews Romans 9:24, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
     
  16. Morning_Joy

    Morning_Joy New Member

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    Elf--Could we message each other about this?
     
  17. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Denver;44047)
    II Peter 3
    2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.Again, words do have limits to their meanings by context! Do you agree? Who is Peter writing to? Everyone in the world, Christian and non Christian alike? Nope, just Christians, 2 Peter 1:1 "To those who have a faith of the same kind as ours" Where do you find Peter change this? No where! Peter was warning and encouraging the Christians, about false teachers and mockers, 2 Peter 3:3-7, who even deny, and mock the Lord's return. Encouragement 2 Peter 3:8, But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.------:9, The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.--------So hang in there beloved, and be comforted, the Lord is not slow as some see it, When the last elect is come to salvation, the end will come. So the "not wishing for any to perish, is the elect, and God is patiently waiting for the last one to come to repentance. IMO.
     
  18. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Morning_Joy;44055)
    Elf--Did you consider the question I previously posted?Does limited atonement teach that everyone else out of the elect are doomed the moment they are born?
    Yes, look back you will find it.
     
  19. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Morning_Joy;44061)
    Elf--Could we message each other about this?
    Yes, sure.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The problem I find with this doctrine is that everyone trys to make it one or the other in a way I kind of agree with Tim it is Both there is predestination but it does not rule out free will nor vise versa The Bible says that we have the free will choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who was seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Predestination can work hand in hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”Predestination can not be denied but neither can free will
     
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