When Prophecy > Jesus

[HammerStone]

I want to throw caution to the arguments about prophecy and line of belief by drawing attention to this caution direct from Jesus:

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

At the end of the day, don't miss the forest for the trees unless it's the tree of life! I love many of you deeply as brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I urge a close assessment of what Scripture says. Pray on it, study it (do your part), and let God speak. To some I think you really need to be careful about assuming only an easy path, as we look to any prophet (and, most notably, our Savior) to know that trials and tribulations will come. To the other side, look very closely at how you handle things. When you read and cite from a scholar who holds this different belief from you, yet he was very clearly and inspired man, well let that sink in. He lead as many and far more to the line of thinking than probably anyone here, but look what he did otherwise.

The accuser sits in front of God, leave that part to him because you don't want any part of it.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Have absolutely no idea what you are saying here? :blink:

Are you saying that everyone is correct in their interpretation of God's Word and scholars who have a totally different doctrine or theology that say isn't based on Christ are all correct and we should just believe that?

 

[aspen]

I want to throw caution to the arguments about prophecy and line of belief by drawing attention to this caution direct from Jesus:



At the end of the day, don't miss the forest for the trees unless it's the tree of life! I love many of you deeply as brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I urge a close assessment of what Scripture says. Pray on it, study it (do your part), and let God speak. To some I think you really need to be careful about assuming only an easy path, as we look to any prophet (and, most notably, our Savior) to know that trials and tribulations will come. To the other side, look very closely at how you handle things. When you read and cite from a scholar who holds this different belief from you, yet he was very clearly and inspired man, well let that sink in. He lead as many and far more to the line of thinking than probably anyone here, but look what he did otherwise.

The accuser sits in front of God, leave that part to him because you don't want any part of it.

Good words, Hammerstone.

I recognize that I need to be more open to learning.

 

[Rach1370]

The thing I don't understand is why people have to hang salvation on an end time/prophecy theory they have. If you don't believe in the pre trib rapture, you're not saved (for example). I understand that obviously people choose to believe in what they understand as truth, but surely we should be able to accept that not all people see it that way. The bible certainly allows leyway in different perspectives on eschatology. I just wish that as saved believers we could discuss the issue with true theological interest, rather than what usually happens....

 

[HammerStone]

Are you saying that everyone is correct in their interpretation of God's Word and scholars who have a totally different doctrine or theology that say isn't based on Christ are all correct and we should just believe that?

What does the quote say about Scripture? They testify of the One it's all about...Jesus.

Let me try saying this from another perspective.

Quit trying to define a person's Christianity by their stance on prophecy. My attempt was to point this out to both sides. We've taken the whole discussion away from being about Jesus and focused it almost entirely on the set of events prior to his return. Debating these things is one thing, but taking swipes and knocking others is another.

There are numerous threads on this board across multiple forums that are regurgitations of the exact same points. My problem is that I continue to note more than a few people getting a little miffed in a good debate; it's turned into a melee. I'm sick and tired of the lines about how much so-and-so knows and how the other guy (or girl) need to wise up.

Frankly I think the handling of much of it is a load of crap. For the few of you that have handled it in the proper Christian manner - awesome and thanks!

Just for the record, I do believe in what's defined as the post-tribulation rapture. I don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture and I do believe it can lead to right into Satan's clutches. However, I am not going to label the person next to me who has read (key point) and sees otherwise. I'm not going to state (or insinuate) that they're going to hell. I'm going to explain the Biblical reasons and then let the chips fall.

If people recognize that these Scriptures are all about Jesus but maybe fail to see the truth of the rapture, then I trust that God will extend grace as he has promised. Maybe that means waking folks up when the time comes. Additionally, I trust that these people will have the knowledge of Scripture and will know the signs well enough to know them when they happen.

I juxtapose the attitude that anyone takes away from our discussions here with the Apostle Paul. I see a lot of talk about Elitism and being fooled, etc, but then I see the same Elitist Attitude when it comes to the mantra of "that's for me to know and you to find out" within Christianity.

Satan doesn't just fool everyone in a single swipe at the end. He's fooling people on a daily basis, and wasting time over his plans at the end will ensure that confusion reigns.

So no, this is not some post advocating a liberal application of Scripture, but it's an attempt at a pointed post and public rebuking of the extremely poor and thoughtless attitudes that are rampant in this area of discussion.

 

[Duckybill]

Quit trying to define a person's Christianity by their stance on prophecy.

I think I agree, unless someone flat out denies the literal return of Jesus.

 

[Angelina]

Thank you HS! that is a very refreshing word in season...

 

[HammerStone]

I think I agree, unless someone flat out denies the literal return of Jesus.

Well that's understood in my book; at the core if someone denies this fact then they are denying more than prophecy. Problem is, I feel like if we had to quantifiably state every negative when we make a positive statement we'd be here all day and night. That's one of the legalistic problems within Christianity, so I typically try not to get mired in it. I think all too often we focus too much on words to the total sacrificing of intent. It's very, very important to be theologically and doctrinally sound, but yet not perch ourselves (not saying you're doing this now, just a general rant, if you will) ready for the metaphorical kill when the other person uses the wrong clause.

In order to be a Christian there is a fundamental base, and I think the return of Christ is really one of those fundamentals based on what is repeatedly said in Scripture.

 

[Duckybill]

Well that's understood in my book; at the core if someone denies this fact then they are denying more than prophecy. Problem is, I feel like if we had to quantifiably state every negative when we make a positive statement we'd be here all day and night. That's one of the legalistic problems within Christianity, so I typically try not to get mired in it. I think all too often we focus too much on words to the total sacrificing of intent. It's very, very important to be theologically and doctrinally sound, but yet not perch ourselves (not saying you're doing this now, just a general rant, if you will) ready for the metaphorical kill when the other person uses the wrong clause.

In order to be a Christian there is a fundamental base, and I think the return of Christ is really one of those fundamentals based on what is repeatedly said in Scripture.

Thanks for clarifying. It gets real 'fun' when dealing with Preterists. Lord have mercy!

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Thanks for the insight Hammerstone. The forums have made me feel claustrophobic lately. Not due to the truth that has been presented, but moreso the way that truth has been presented hasn't been justified. I Feel like I have had nothing but sarcasm to give, to lighten the atmosphere, but my humor tends to be dark, misplaced, and unhelpful. Sorry about that.


[sup]2 timothy 2:[/sup][sup]14[/sup] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. [sup]15[/sup] Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. [sup]16[/sup] Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. [sup]17[/sup] Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [sup]18[/sup] who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. [sup]19[/sup] Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”


-The Lord knows who belongs to him, and others' improper handling of God's word doesn't shake the foundation he has placed in those who are truly his. Those who are his already know they must turn away from the sin of the past and they have God's spirit to guide them into all truth.-

Psalm 145:18
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.

-We need to be careful that on the forum we not only prove faithful with our exposition on scripture, but also prove our ability to correctly handle and lovingly instruct others with the truth we discover.-


[sup]Ephesians 4:14[/sup] Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. [sup]15[/sup] Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
[sup]

2 Timothy 2:23[/sup] Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. [sup]24[/sup] And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. [sup]25[/sup] Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, [sup]26[/sup] and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[avoice]

1 Corinthians 3
Wisdom applied to divisions in the church

1 Brothers and sisters, I couldn’t talk to you like spiritual people but like unspiritual people, like babies in Christ.

2 I gave you milk to drink instead of solid food, because you weren’t up to it yet.

3 Now you are still not up to it because you are still unspiritual. When jealousy and fighting exist between you, aren’t you unspiritual and living by human standards?

4 When someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and someone else says, “I belong to Apollos,” aren’t you acting like people without the Spirit?

This same concept fits differnt beliefs or churches

5 After all, what is Apollos? What is Paul? They are servants who helped you to believe. Each one had a role given to them by the Lord:

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God made it grow.

7 Because of this, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but the only one who is anything is God who makes it grow.

8 The one who plants and the one who waters work together, but each one will receive their own reward for their own labor.

9 We are God’s coworkers, and you are God’s field, God’s building.

Paul is now going to compare planting seeds and watering them (teaching) to building a building where each adds a differnt layer
to the fountain that is laid

[sup]10[/sup] I laid a foundation like a wise master builder according to God’s grace that was given to me, but someone else is building on top of it. Each person needs to pay attention to the way they build on it.

[sup]11[/sup] No one can lay any other foundation besides the one that is already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

[sup]12[/sup] So, whether someone builds on top of the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or hay,

[sup]13[/sup] each one’s work will be clearly shown. The day will make it clear, because it will be revealed with fire—the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.

[sup]14[/sup] If anyone’s work survives, they’ll get a reward.

[sup]15[/sup] But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire.

What ever you teach ...you are watering the seed or adding a layer to building ...if you teach wrong your work will be burnt you will receive no credit
you maybe saved but your work will count for nothing ..therefore one is told you need to pay attention always building upon Christ and the Word of God

 

[aspen]

Well that's understood in my book; at the core if someone denies this fact then they are denying more than prophecy. Problem is, I feel like if we had to quantifiably state every negative when we make a positive statement we'd be here all day and night. That's one of the legalistic problems within Christianity, so I typically try not to get mired in it. I think all too often we focus too much on words to the total sacrificing of intent. It's very, very important to be theologically and doctrinally sound, but yet not perch ourselves (not saying you're doing this now, just a general rant, if you will) ready for the metaphorical kill when the other person uses the wrong clause.

In order to be a Christian there is a fundamental base, and I think the return of Christ is really one of those fundamentals based on what is repeatedly said in Scripture.

My foundation is the doctrine of the Trinity. Messing with the true nature of God is where all heresies are born. All other truth really needs no defense because it comes from God. What is my opinion going to do to bolster up something that is already on solid ground? Sometimes I think God's people waste a lot of energy trying to keep mountains from falling over! We are called to move mountains, not protect them - effecting hearts through love often moves the mountains of human will.

 

[Rach1370]

What does the quote say about Scripture? They testify of the One it's all about...Jesus.

Let me try saying this from another perspective.

Quit trying to define a person's Christianity by their stance on prophecy. My attempt was to point this out to both sides. We've taken the whole discussion away from being about Jesus and focused it almost entirely on the set of events prior to his return. Debating these things is one thing, but taking swipes and knocking others is another.

There are numerous threads on this board across multiple forums that are regurgitations of the exact same points. My problem is that I continue to note more than a few people getting a little miffed in a good debate; it's turned into a melee. I'm sick and tired of the lines about how much so-and-so knows and how the other guy (or girl) need to wise up.

Frankly I think the handling of much of it is a load of crap. For the few of you that have handled it in the proper Christian manner - awesome and thanks!

Just for the record, I do believe in what's defined as the post-tribulation rapture. I don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture and I do believe it can lead to right into Satan's clutches. However, I am not going to label the person next to me who has read (key point) and sees otherwise. I'm not going to state (or insinuate) that they're going to hell. I'm going to explain the Biblical reasons and then let the chips fall.

If people recognize that these Scriptures are all about Jesus but maybe fail to see the truth of the rapture, then I trust that God will extend grace as he has promised. Maybe that means waking folks up when the time comes. Additionally, I trust that these people will have the knowledge of Scripture and will know the signs well enough to know them when they happen.

I juxtapose the attitude that anyone takes away from our discussions here with the Apostle Paul. I see a lot of talk about Elitism and being fooled, etc, but then I see the same Elitist Attitude when it comes to the mantra of "that's for me to know and you to find out" within Christianity.

Satan doesn't just fool everyone in a single swipe at the end. He's fooling people on a daily basis, and wasting time over his plans at the end will ensure that confusion reigns.

So no, this is not some post advocating a liberal application of Scripture, but it's an attempt at a pointed post and public rebuking of the extremely poor and thoughtless attitudes that are rampant in this area of discussion.

This is really well said Hammer, thanks! I have always felt this and sometimes wonder why it has to be such a divisive issue. A fairly well known rapture board I was on a year ago dismissed anyone with different opinions...going so far as to call them unsaved and false teachers. I couldn't quite believe it myself, especially since the people to whom they were referring were preaching/claiming Jesus in a strictly and wonderfully Biblical way.
As you say, it is obviously a topic that can be discussed in many different ways, but as long as we all focus on Jesus, and the real hope we long for, I don't see why it has to come to verbal warfare so often.