Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

[St. SteVen]

Did the results of the Fall of humankind supersede the results of the Atonement?
Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

Clyde Pilkington - Christ's Successful Work​

4,160 views Mar 28, 2014
Christ - a success or a failure? What did he come to do and did he actually accomplish it?
Well, he's the Son of God, isn't he!? Don't refuse to accept the truth that is the grace of God -
if righteousness does not come from Christ's work then Christ died for nothing. www.studyshelf.com

 

[St. SteVen]

Results.

Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christ had the greater act.

However, not like in Adam all die. To be made alive in Christ one must receive his gift. God will not force his salvation on anyone

 

[JunChosen]

Results.

Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

There are Christians whose doctrines are full of holes. Is this because they don't know the Bible or do they follow other Christians work without testing if the doctrine they are following is faithful to the word of God?

Firstly, I would like to point out that the OP is in error when it declares "that one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Would you imagine if this statement was true? Surely, there will no one be in hell since justification and life was given to All people, that is to all believers only!!!

Secondly, Yes! Christ's work superseded the fall, as we read: "....of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

No I have not listened to what Clyde Pilkington has to say as I've read your text reference..

To God Be The glory

 

[marks]

Firstly, I would like to point out that the OP is in error when it declares "that one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

For one thing, that's a poor NIV rendering.

Romans 5:18 KJV
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


"Justification of life" or "justifying of life" would be correct, "and" does not appear here. Poor translation makes for a faulty foundation.

Much love!

 

[JunChosen]

Christ had the greater act.

However, not like in Adam all die. To be made alive in Christ one must receive his gift. God will not force his salvation on anyone

You are in error.

In order to receive something it must first be offered!

John 3:16 declared: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son...."

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

For one thing, that's a poor NIV rendering.

Romans 5:18 KJV
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

View attachment 36289
"Justification of life" or "justifying of life" would be correct, "and" does not appear here. Poor translation makes for a faulty foundation.

Much love!

You are correct of course. Looked at my KJV Bible which has always been my Bible reference.

However, although I used a poor translation as you said, would you say my statement and point of reference (Revelation 13:8) is an incorrect conclusion?

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

You are correct of course. Looked at my KJV Bible which has always been my Bible reference.

However, although I used a poor translation as you said, would you say my statement and point of reference (Revelation 13:8) was incorrect?

To God Be The Glory

I was more referring to the translation in the OP. I've found many issues with the NIV, I never use it.

My understanding about this thread is that it's yet another Universalism thread, based on poor interpretation of verses poorly translated and taken out of context.

Personally, I've come to conclude that "justification of life" in verse 18 refers to the fact that we don't all drop dead when we commit our first imputable sin. Jesus died removing the sin of the world, allowing us a shot at life even being dead in sin.

All the things written in Romans 5 will not contradict the beginning of that chapter, that we are justified through faith in Jesus Christ.

I agree with your thoughts, if I'm understanding you correctly, that Jesus' offering of His body was a sacrifice that works forward and backward in time, so that Adam didn't physically die the day he sinned, though I believe he died spiritually.

And that all those who trust God will be His, no matter when they lived.

Much love!

 

[marks]

point of reference (Revelation 13:8)

Something to consider if you wish . . .

There are two passages that are parallel on this point:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In Revelation 13:8, the clause "from the foundation of the world" can fit grammatically with either "whose names were not written in the book of life", or with, "of the Lamb slain", so this passage is ambiguous, and we need to bring other passages to bring clarity. We have a parallel passage in Revelation 17:8, which brings two of these clauses together, "not written in the book of life . . . from the foundation of the world".

So if we are going to choose whether to read 13:8 according to what we can support elsewhere, it would have to agree with 17:8, that being the names written from the foundation of the world.

To be sure, you can read one passage the one way, and the other passage the other way, and be grammatically correct. I don't happen think that's the best hermeneutic, but that's me.

Something else to mention . . . "names remain written" this is in the Perfect tense, which is to say the names were written and stay written from the foundation of the world. As if the names were all written but not all remain there.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

Firstly, I would like to point out that the OP is in error when it declares "that one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

You are quoting scripture and saying it is in error. ????

Would you imagine if this statement was true? Surely, there will no one be in hell since justification and life was given to All people, that is to all believers only!!!

You say that like it's a bad thing.
Would you be a sad thing if no one ended up in hell?

 

[marks]

You are quoting scripture and saying it is in error. ????

The Scripture she quoted was from your mistranslation, so, yes, it's in error.

You took a mistranslated verse out of context, to serve your agenda, what were you expecting? Were you aware of the mistranslation? Are you now aware of it? Do you defend that translation?

Much love!

 

[Pierac]

Christ had the greater act.

However, not like in Adam all die. To be made alive in Christ one must receive his gift. God will not force his salvation on anyone

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

I'm not the Paul who wrote this.... So just giving you some data in scripture that I noted... Like what does All even mean??

Sorry... not what YOU wanted to see...

The other Paul

 

[marks]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

I'm not the Paul who wrote this.... So just giving you some data in scripture that I noted... Like what does All even mean??

Sorry... not what YOU wanted to see...

The other Paul

If you are in Adam, you've died in Him. If you are in Christ, you are made alive in Him, and that means all. All who are in Adam, and all who are in Christ. Something this verse does not say is that all who have been in Adam will then be in Christ. That is nowhere taught in the Bible.

Let's look at the context of the passage you've quoted:

1 Corinthians 15:16-22 KJV
16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is speaking of those who had died, being "in Christ", here said to sleep. This regards the hope of the resurrection for those who are "in Christ", which is to say, those who have been baptized into Christ, being justified, and reborn. No one who is in Christ will be left out.

Another passage regarding the resurrection of those in Christ is here:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again this is specific towards those who are "in Christ". It includes the catching up of those who remain alive at that time, but it's not everybody, the letter goes on to talk about what happens to the others.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

I'm not the Paul who wrote this.... So just giving you some data in scripture that I noted... Like what does All even mean??

Sorry... not what YOU wanted to see...

The other Paul

If all will be made alive, then we have no need of church, we have no need of the Bible. We have no need of God. We should live our life however we want, because everyone will get to heaven.

 

[JunChosen]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

I'm not the Paul who wrote this.... So just giving you some data in scripture that I noted... Like what does All even mean??

Sorry... not what YOU wanted to see...

The other Paul

The first word "ALL" as in Adam all die that that word "ALL" means "each and every."

But the second word "ALL" cannot mean the same, as in, "even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive." BECAUSE we know that hell will heavily be populated. Imagine what would happen if ALL in Christ shall be made alive, no one will be in hell!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Bob Estey]

Did the results of the Fall of humankind supersede the results of the Atonement?
Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

Clyde Pilkington - Christ's Successful Work​

4,160 views Mar 28, 2014
Christ - a success or a failure? What did he come to do and did he actually accomplish it?
Well, he's the Son of God, isn't he!? Don't refuse to accept the truth that is the grace of God -
if righteousness does not come from Christ's work then Christ died for nothing. www.studyshelf.com

If Adam's fall was too great for Jesus to overcome, why did Jesus die on the cross? Did he not know whether or not he could overcome evil?

 

[Pierac]

WOW ... No one saw the Truth....

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.


Let me see a Word study on Rom 11:32... I'm guessing Crickets....

Now.... For the Meat of God's word....

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

More...
NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

CEV Joh 6:65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."

More...
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

NOW!!!! I want all to research this verse.... Because You will not Believe it!!!

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Think about what's being said... In 1Co 12:3 in relation to Mark 4:11-12....
Now for some Meat....

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820
κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

That's A___Lot to take in..... LOL
Paul

 

[St. SteVen]

Imagine what would happen if ALL in Christ shall be made alive, no one will be in hell!!!

Horrors! - LOL
You say that like it's a bad thing. Are you a sadist?

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained.

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ.
Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent.
So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/ Source: @Chadrho

 

[JunChosen]

Horrors! - LOL
You say that like it's a bad thing. Are you a sadist?

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained.

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ.
Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent.
So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/ Source: @Chadrho

You may write eloquently but I'm afraid your understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:22 is in error.

Both words "all" cannot have the same meaning. The first word "all" yes it means "each and every person," but the second word "all" cannot mean the same because we know that hell will heavily be populated. Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

His people is the elect and does not mean "each and every person."

Not as you say all means all in both instances.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Cyd]

Did the results of the Fall of humankind supersede the results of the Atonement?
Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ

Christ as He is God and Adam was not.
A question for you... did God perform the first sacrifice providing skins for Adam and Eve?