Who is Israel?

[Zao is life]

The promises of God are to believers. So I think Israel refers to BELIEVERS, particularly those believers who are the children of Abraham (and those who may have converted in the past etc etc) Not to a secular nation. Thoughts?

1. The very first promise God made to Abraham was that he would become the father of many Gentile nations - and God repeated the promise when He made the promise, saying it three times, using the word "goyim" (Genesis 17:4-7):

2. In the same passage God changed Abram's name to Abraham, saying that the reason he is changing Abram's name to Abraham is because God will make him the father of many Gentile nations:

"Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many (goyim: Gentile) nations have I made thee." (Genesis 17:5).

3. The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are only one tribe out of 12 tribes of Israel.

4. Paul did not identify himself as a Jew in Romans 11:1.

5. On his death-bed, Jacob (Israel) told Joseph that the seed of his son Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (translated into English as "a multitude of nations") (Genesis 48:17-19).

6. The name Ephraim became the name by which God collectively called the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel (a.k.a the house / kingdom of Israel).

7. Ephraim ceased being a chosen nation before God in 720 BC (Isaiah 7:8) - and ceased being a nation completely because his seed intermarried with the Gentiles and became mixed with the Gentiles.

8. Restoration for Ephraim - the 10 tribes- is in Christ (Hosea 1:9-11; Romans 9:25).

9. All 12 tribes are listed in Revelation 7 - with the exception of Dan, who is replaced with Manasseh - and Ephraim is mentioned not by name, but as a multitude of nations in Revelation 7:9.

9; Jews and Benjamites (the two southern tribes of the house / kingdom of Judah) who reject Christ are broken off, just as Ephraim had been (Romans 11:1-5 & 17).

10. As Paul said,

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations), before him whom he believed, even God, who replenishes life to the dead, and calls those things which be not as though they were." (Romans 4:16-17).

Those words of Paul allude to God's first promise to Abraham in Genesis 17:4-7).

The seed of Abraham is Christ and those who are in Him through faith in Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The promises of God are to believers. So I think Israel refers to BELIEVERS, particularly those believers who are the children of Abraham (and those who may have converted in the past etc etc) Not to a secular nation. Thoughts?

Yes, that is what Paul called "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 or what many of us call Spiritual Israel. Paul contrasted two different Israels in this passage.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

I highlighted the references to national Israel in blue and the references to spiritual Israel in red.

National Israel refers to those who physically descend from the nation of Israel that physically descended from Abraham. Paul indicated that not all who descend from national Israel are part of spiritual Israel.

Spiritual Israel refers to those who are Abraham's spiritual children/offspring and who are God's children and the children of the promise. In the following passage Paul indicates who are God's children that are the children of the promise and are Abraham's spiritual offspring and they are all who have faith in Christ and belong to Him.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've said it many times. The biblical definition of Israel is the nation as it developed from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It was the product of 12 tribes eventually forming into a political unit--a nation.

To think there was a mystical parallel "spiritual nation" existing alongside physical Israel is the product of Replacement Theology, or the denial that Israel's promise of national salvation remains in effect.

Here you go again with your foolish Replacement Theology nonsense. Those who believe in what you call Replacement Theology do not have anyone being replaced. Instead, we believe that Gentile believers are joined together with Israelite believers together into one body of Christ and that Gentile believers are fellow citizens and fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers, as Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-3:6. No one is replaced in this theology.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No Israel are the physical descendnats of Abrham, Isaac and Jacob. Spiritual Israel are those Jews who are believers in Jesus as messiah.

God made numerous promises to the nation of Israel with the words ; "it shall come to pass...". That means they will come to pass for the nation of Israel. God is not an Indian giver.

Do you agree with Paul that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises made to Israel or do you think that Paul didn't know what he was talking about?

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Nation of Israel rejected the chief corner stone "Jesus Christ", the kingdom has been taken from them and given to the church that's the holy nation

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

To be clear, the kingdom was only taken from unbelieving Israelites, not believing Israelites. As Paul wrote in Romans 11, unbelieving Israelites were blinded and cut off, but a remnant of believers remained. So, the kingdom of God wasn't taken from the entire nation of Israel. The kingdom of God was given to the holy nation, Spiritual Israel, consisting of believing Gentiles and Israelites.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK, yes, the kingdom of heaven, of God. That is not saying that the believing Israel who are saved in the end will not get what they were always promised

Do you believe that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with believing Israelites of God's promises, as Paul indicated here...

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here you go again with your foolish Replacement Theology nonsense.

It is not "foolish." It is a common way for non-RT Christians to express the position you hold and we disagree with. Lacking a better term, Replacement Theology works for us, if not for you. After all, it is we who are trying to explain what we believe--not you. If you don't know what the "replacement" means in Replacement Theology that is on you. It isn't that difficult. If I'm "foolish," then you're "stupid." But I don't think either that I'm foolish or you're stupid. ;)

Those who believe in what you call Replacement Theology do not have anyone being replaced.

I'm saying you're replacing something from my perspective--not yours.

Instead, we believe that Gentile believers are joined together with Israelite believers together into one body of Christ and that Gentile believers are fellow citizens and fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers, as Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-3:6. No one is replaced in this theology.

Yes, but we non-RT adherants don't believe that. We believe that the union of Jewish and non-Jewish believers is the same as the union of all believers, regardless of their ethnicity or nationality.

But in the present age, nationalities and ethnicities remain relevant. Otherwise, God would not have promised Abraham his own distinct biological nation, and a multitude of distinct nations representing faith across the earth. NT truth does not dissolve these distinctions. Rather, it embraces them and unites them by one spirituality.

None of this means that "Israel" becomes a metaphor for the universal Church. Some biblical verses may sound like that, but that is not what they're saying. The promises God made on behalf of Israel remain true for the nation Israel today. Every nation may have its own promises.

Overall, we share the same spiritual inheritance in Christ. We can agree on that. Israel simply has yet to return to God as a nation. And we believe that will happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not "foolish."

It is 100% foolish because you are accusing people with a belief that has no one being replaced of believing in Replacement Theology. That is the epitome of foolishness.

It is a common way for non-RT Christians to express the position you hold and we disagree with. Lacking a better term, Replacement Theology works for us, if not for you.

Okay, then you believe in dispensationalism. I guess it's okay to label one's beliefs however you want whether it accurately reflects what the other person believes or not, according to you.

 

[Douggg]

I am a Christian, a new creation in Christ. Not a "spiritual" Israelite.

 

[dad]

Well that is a given. Jews who do not receive Christ are lost. but in the end before Jesus returns- the entire nation of Israel that has survived (the 1/3 of Ze3ch 13) will receive Jesus as Messiah. It is their prayer for Messiah to return that brings the physical return of Jesus to earth.

I agree. That does not leave the people who claim He restored them in 1948 in a good place though:)

 

[dad]

Children of Satan. Jews who did not follow through on their covenant with God are regarded as "Not My People." Hosea 1. It doesn't mean they weren't Jewish. It just meant they were no longer "favored Jews."

You made that up though. Israel today is not following squat.

Rev 3.9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

This is not a statement determining ethnicity or nationality. Rather, it is a statement of fidelity. If a Jew, who was called to represent God as His child, no longer acted and spoke as a child of God, he was for all intents and purposes no longer a child of God.

So are the promises to Israel. FOR believers.

Paul explains this...

Rom 2.12 all who sin under the law will be judged by the law... 17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God... 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." ...28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Paul is here not denying that a Jew is a Jew in the ethnic sense. On the contrary, he confirms this.

Who cares what we were born? The issue here is that no title and right to land is given to unbelievers (Jewish or not) period.

Rather, he is saying that when one chooses to act outside of the constraints of God's Law, no longer acting as a Jew should act, then he has disqualified himself as acting on behalf of Jews. He is, in a sense, no longer a Jew--even though ethnically he remains Jewish.

Also disqualified from any claim to the promised land.

In other words, a Jew remains a Jew on the outside, but his identity in the spiritual sense must also be confirmed on the inside. "A person is not a Jew who is "only only outwardly." That is, he is externally a Jew, but to prove his legitimacy as a representative of the Jewish calling he must be a Jew inwardly as well.

Under the New Covenant, acting as a Jew should mean one would conform to Christ. Not doing so would be acting "unJewish."

Great. Israel is not doing that

Being Jewish is either about being an ethnic, physical Jew, or it is about acting as a Jew should act in covenant with God. In saying one is not a Jew is more, however, than just saying one is acting improperly as a Jew. It is a claim that a person has committed apostasy in the way he has chosen to completely surrender acting in a Jewish way.

No, Hebrews were Hebrews in the wilderness whether they obeyed or disobeyed. After the Babylonian Captivity Jews were viewed as Jews whether or not they obeyed. Paul, in the NT Scriptures, claimed that Jews had determined to essentially become non-Jews by choosing to act unlike the way Jews should act. He was not saying they surrendered their Jewish ethnicity or nationality.

They are not eligible for the blessing and promises though unless they believe.
If you want to call some unsaved people who are not eligible for any of the promises to Jews 'Jews' - fine. Like we can call Pharisees Jews. In God's eyes they are children of their father the devil though.

On the contrary, how many did God promise would get saved *before they were saved? Many who have come to fulfill God's promise to Abraham began as unbelievers. The promise included a guarantee that many unbelievers would become believers.

Until they do get saved He does not restore them and those who do not get saved never get restored.

If you're premillennial like I am you may see Israel a complete nation politically without every individual getting saved.

Not God's Israel. Just a secular nation using the name.

The message is that the nation will be whole politically and geographically. And the national constitution will be fully Christian, allowing for individuals to decide Salvation on their own.

False. ONLY the few survivors who repent and are saved will be Israel. Period.

Nations are not God's enemy just because they are not Christian nations.

Yes of course they are. The whole world is. Those who love the world included!

Israel has been acting in the interest of self-preservation. And I believe God wants them to do that, Christian or not.

Who cares what terrorists do or supposedly think in their head?

 

[dad]

1. The very first promise God made to Abraham was that he would become the father of many Gentile nations - and God repeated the promise when He made the promise, saying it three times, using the word "goyim" (Genesis 17:4-7):

And none of those unbelievers / nations have the right to evict women and children out of a land they claim God wants to give them.

2. In the same passage God changed Abram's name to Abraham, saying that the reason he is changing Abram's name to Abraham is because God will make him the father of many Gentile nations:

"Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many (goyim: Gentile) nations have I made thee." (Genesis 17:5).

So? God also calls Himself the God of Abraham and Isaac. He is referring to believers of that lineage.

3. The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are only one tribe out of 12 tribes of Israel.

4. Paul did not identify himself as a Jew in Romans 11:1.

5. On his death-bed, Jacob (Israel) told Joseph that the seed of his son Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (translated into English as "a multitude of nations") (Genesis 48:17-19).

6. The name Ephraim became the name by which God collectively called the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel (a.k.a the house / kingdom of Israel).

7. Ephraim ceased being a chosen nation before God in 720 BC (Isaiah 7:8) - and ceased being a nation completely because his seed intermarried with the Gentiles and became mixed with the Gentiles.

8. Restoration for Ephraim - the 10 tribes- is in Christ (Hosea 1:9-11; Romans 9:25).

9. All 12 tribes are listed in Revelation 7 - with the exception of Dan, who is replaced with Manasseh - and Ephraim is mentioned not by name, but as a multitude of nations in Revelation 7:9.

9; Jews and Benjamites (the two southern tribes of the house / kingdom of Judah) who reject Christ are broken off, just as Ephraim had been (Romans 11:1-5 & 17).

10. As Paul said,

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations), before him whom he believed, even God, who replenishes life to the dead, and calls those things which be not as though they were." (Romans 4:16-17).

Those words of Paul allude to God's first promise to Abraham in Genesis 17:4-7).

The seed of Abraham is Christ and those who are in Him through faith in Him.

We are the seed of Abraham as well. But the promises of the promised land are FOR those believers who are Jewish. Not you or I. We have a plethora of other promises.

 

[dad]

Yes, that is what Paul called "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 or what many of us call Spiritual Israel. Paul contrasted two different Israels in this passage.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Yes and some of those offspring (who believe in Jesus) will be restored to the land God promised.

I highlighted the references to national Israel in blue and the references to spiritual Israel in red.

National Israel refers to those who physically descend from the nation of Israel that physically descended from Abraham. Paul indicated that not all who descend from national Israel are part of spiritual Israel.

Right but some are! The believers! Those will one day be restored

Spiritual Israel refers to those who are Abraham's spiritual children/offspring and who are God's children and the children of the promise. In the following passage Paul indicates who are God's children that are the children of the promise and are Abraham's spiritual offspring and they are all who have faith in Christ and belong to Him.

The context of promise here is salvation etc. There are also other promises for specific land God made that has never been fulfilled yet. Those promises are for saved Jews that He will restore.

 

[dad]

Do you believe that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with believing Israelites of God's promises, as Paul indicated here...

Promise of eternal life, yes. WE are not promised Euphrates beachfront property though. Saved Jews are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes and some of those offspring (who believe in Jesus) will be restored to the land God promised.


Right but some are! The believers! Those will one day be restored

The context of promise here is salvation etc. There are also other promises for specific land God made that has never been fulfilled yet. Those promises are for saved Jews that He will restore.

Do you not believe that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises, as Paul said in Ephesians 3:1-6? Anything that you think is promised to Israel is also promised to Gentile believers.

Please read the following where it is explained that God has something better in mind for His people than just a piece of land, as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came to realize.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

God expanded His promise to something better than that "specific land" that you're talking about. God has the right to do that, of course. Right? Abraham dwelt in the land of promise with Isaac and Jacob, but "as in a foreign country". He realized that God had something better than that in mind for His people. So, they started instead looking for "a heavenly country" and "the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God". That is what we should all be looking for. We should all be looking for "new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells" as Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13. Don't put limitations on God's promises.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Promise of eternal life, yes. WE are not promised Euphrates beachfront property though. Saved Jews are.

We (Jew and Gentile) believers are all promised the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13). That's what Peter indicated that all believers, including saved Jews, should be looking for. And, as I just showed in Hebrews 11:8-16, all believers should be looking for a heavenly country and the city whose builder and maker is God rather than the land of promise that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dwelt in as foreigners before realizing God had something better in mind for them and for all of us believers.

The blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one body of Christ, as fellow citizens and fellow heirs of God's promises. Why would you want to divide what Jesus brought together as one, as if there were two bodies (two separate peoples of God) instead of the "one body"?

 

[dad]

Do you not believe that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises, as Paul said in Ephesians 3:1-6? Anything that you think is promised to Israel is also promised to Gentile believers.

Yes fellow heirs of salvation.

Please read the following where it is explained that God has something better in mind for His people than just a piece of land, as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came to realize.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

God has plenty more than land for Jewish believers. But He keeps His promises and also has land of course. He is not a liar.

 

[dad]

We (Jew and Gentile) believers are all promised the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13).

Correct, and until that time the Jews have the promised land. (saved Jews) The new heavens is after the 1000 years end

 

[Randy Kluth]

You made that up though. Israel today is not following squat.

Made what up? You don't recognize Messianic Jews? Obviously, as a nation Israel is not following Christ. Like Jesus said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do."

So are the promises to Israel. FOR believers.

Missing the point. The promises preceded the Gentile nations even becoming believers!

Who cares what we were born? The issue here is that no title and right to land is given to unbelievers (Jewish or not) period.

On the contrary, read Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

You're going to believe what you want to believe.

 

[The Light]

The Jews rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah.

You can go to any Jewish (Judaism) website and find that their King of Israel messiah must be a Jew.

And this is exactly why when someone that is not a Jew claims to be God and there is an image set up............that the Jews flee to a place of protection.

THIS IS 100% PROOF THAT THE ANTICHRIST IS NOT A JEW.