rom 8:33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.When in the Mind of God did Jesus christ become chargable, liable for the sins of His elect ? When was Jesus christ constituted their surety per heb7:21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. This word surety in our dictionary means:One who has contracted to be responsible for another, especially one who assumes responsibilities or debts in the event of default..This suretyship was confirmed I believe before the world began, within the stipulations of the Everlasting Covenant..for the scripture speaks of the everlasting covenant heb 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, This suretyship ocassioned, that if and when the elect would sin, which they did in adam, that Jesus christ their head, would take full responsibilty for their guilt and just condemnation which they demerited upon themselves..Now, if Jesus christ from the before the foundation of the world was made liable for the sins of the elect, then tell me, when were the elect of God in time ever made liable, and legally condemened ?Did God the Father suspend the suretyship of Jesus christ, after the elect sinned in adam, and then made them liable and condemend for their own sins ?Did God lay charge on His own elect ? Was it possible for Jesus christ to be held liable for the sins of the elect before creation [via the everlasting covenant] and then still God held the elect liable themselves for their sins after creation and their fall ?Was there any lawful guilt or charge to condemn the elect at their fall in adam, if the lawful guilt and charge of their sin was already Jesus christ suretyship ?How would God be Just in condemning any elect, for what they did in adam, when He had already set it up for their surety to be condemened in their place and stead ?This is why paul preaches, that God was in christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..You know why ? Because Jesus christ had been made surety for them, before they committed them..
Who shall lay charge on Gods elect ?
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This is a deep subject matter, hopefully these scriptures should help though: 2nd Thessalonians 2:13, Ephesians 1:4 and Ephesians 2:10. God bless :)
To be honest some points were a bit confusing in my mind but i picked up on some of the points, like i say though its a bit deep even for me and im as deep as they comesavedbygrace57;71747 said:
gumby;71751]To be honest some points were a bit confusing in my mind but i picked up on some of the points said:
To be honest it doesnt seem to me that anyone should lay charge on gods elect i mean i would assume that god would but why would he do that if he prechose them from the begining of time? sorry if i have offended but just food for thought :)savedbygrace57;71766]What points are confusing to you ? And as far as being deep said:
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I think you are asking a question that you then give your own answer to, but I am not laying this as a charge against you. If I could raise a point of order, though, regarding the Mind of God, as you put it, since everything knowable is always known by God He has in His infinite wisdom always known that His Son was the One who would become sin in order to redeem sinners. It wasn't until Christ completed the Work of Redemption by shedding His blood on the Cross that the charges against the foreknown elect of God were dropped. See 1Corinthians 6:20, 1Corinthians 7:23savedbygrace57;71742]Romans 8:33 [B]33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God said:
Thats not true..the actual payment wasnt until the cross in time, but God didnt lay the charge of sin upon the elect ever, for He layed them on Jesus christ.. There was never a time when Gods elect were judicially liable for their sins, for christ always was..hence the gospel says this: 2 cor 5: 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world [of the elect] unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. The reason why their sins were not imputed [charged] to them, because God charged them to Jesus christ..He didnt charge them to both..
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
In disagreeing with and refuting that argument, which incidently misinterprets the tense of 2 cor. 5:19, please note the following Scriptures, taking care to weigh up the significance of the highlighted portions:Romans 3:19-25(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;savedbygrace57;71823] [B]Thats not true..the actual payment wasnt until the cross in time said:
You just rejecting truth..Stumpmaster;71883][B]In disagreeing with and refuting that argument[/B] said:
btw, I agree, the elect's sins are not held against them... since God, in His perfect absolute foreknowledge knew who His Elect Bride was from before the foundation of the world, that they, while being born sinners, would, temporally, exercise faith and thus, by believing in Christ Jesus, be forgiven of their sins... though this would happen temporally, from God's eternal perspective there was of course never any question that the elect would be saved, and who exactly the company of the elect is specifically comprised of.... so the answer to the question "Why shall lay any charge on God's elect?" is Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."blessings,ken
posted by savedbygrace57 in reference to Stumpmaster
Why even post this unclear dribble in the first place, when YOU already have all the answers. Stumpmaster posted scriptures, You accuse this Brother of Rejecting God's Word??? All because he does not see in the Word what you have twisted and distorted? He now rejects God's Word!!!????Your the one that is listening to the Wrong spirit. How stupid and careless can you be? You have laid aside what is important. Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Its unclear to you..and maybe to others, but the Truth must be preached unto all nations, and then the end shall come.. matt 24: 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Your not looking at your own heart. You accused a man that does use scripture and does want truth as someone that rejects truth. We ought to be more concerned with your attitude, more than this God's elect nonsense. 1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. This would very much account for you theories on the Word of God. I greatly suspect that you have a very low tolerance for Gods children that do not think like you. I suspect Stumpmaster is one of many that you have said vile things against, with no regards to Who those people belong to. This causes darkness, and stumbling. It very much explains why you view the Word as you do.1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Jesus Preached to the JUST!!! and the Unjust in Hell. Why, would he have to do that??? I mean, they were God's elect and already forgiven. I must be misreading this huh??Jesus going to the cross was just a business formality according to your doctrine.None of that matters though.................... Its nothing compared to breaking that commandment of Love and treating God's children as if they are truth rejecting heathens, if they don't agree with your twisted version of God's Word. It's you brother that has a very serious issues. I would get it fixed or it is going to cost you more than you will want to pay. Jesus Is Lord.
yes, we must never confuse our interpretations of the word of God with the word of God itself... to disagree with someone's interpretation is thus, not to disagree with God Himself, since no one but God is an infallible interpreter of Scripture...blessings,ken
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