Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

[David1701]

You'll get a reply anyway.
Girls like to have the last word.

LOL!

I only posted that no reply was necessary from you, because you had done that and I wanted to show you what it's like to be on the receiving end of such silly comments. You are perfectly welcome to reply.

You are a follower of Calvin.

No, I'm not; and I'm not the subject of this discussion.

You are of the refomred denominations.

No, I'm not; and I'm not the subject of this discussion.

The reformed denomination believes in calviinism and teaches TULIP.

So-called "Calvinism" is more than just T.U.L.I.P., which was not from Calvin anyway (it was an acronym from the biblical responses of the Synod of Dordtrecht, to the five points of the Remonstrants (disciples of Arminius)).

Nowhere does the bible use the words GOD IS SOVEREIGN.

Then it's just as well that no-one has claimed that, isn't it? The sovereignty of God does not depend upon the wording that you have chosen.

This is understood by every Christian nonetheless.

I wish that were true...

The difference is that you don't understand like every other Christian does.

Emotional responses like that contribute nothing to a sensible discussion.

I know what you believe...
and it's not good.
But this isn't the place.
We'll meet again.

You certainly don't know all that I believe (you might know a little; but, I'm not the subject of this discussion).

I'll say this:
Catholicism does not change the nature of God.
what YOU believe does.

Romanism tells people that God turns a flour and water wafer into God, which people are then to worship.

It tells them that God sends Christians to "Purgatory" when they die, to get the rest of their sins purged, thus implying that the cross was ineffectual.

It tells them that God saves idolaters in false religions (even atheists!), if they do the best they can with the light they supposedly have.

It tells them that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the only mediator, but all their priests are too.

etc., etc.

Really?
You think that 83% of all Chrisitans are wrong and 17% are right about NOT needing good works to be saved?

Argumentum ad populum is a well known logical fallacy. It relies upon numbers of adherents to a particular viewpoint, rather than evidence.

I'd go with the 83%.
I wouldn't take the chance.

I'd go with the Bible.

Let's say 100 persons are looking at a color.
83% say it's blue
17% say it's grey

What color would YOU think it is if you couldn't see it?

I wouldn't know, since I couldn't see it.

Are the people telling the truth?

Are some of them colour blind?

Is the colour blue-grey, so that it could be described either way?

Like I said....not here.
However Jesus DID say this.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

And this verse is, of course, absolutely true. Those whom God has saved bear good fruit, some thirty, some sixty and some an hundredfold.

That's for sure.
That does not remove the fact that good works are necessary.

Cart -> Horse

Good works are the result of, and thus evidence of, salvation.

Maybe we can discuss one day.

 

[David1701]

I never said it was only Mary's doing.

You said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?

Why single out Mariam? What about her father and mother; and their fathers and mothers; and everyone else whom God used to bring about the prophesied circumstances of our Lord's birth, life, death and resurrection?

Why capitalise "Mother", in "Mother of God", as if it were a title?

 

[David1701]

I capitalize "Mother" when referencing Mary out of reverence and respect for Her.

The title "Mother of God" does not refer to the Holy Trinity: God the Father (Thought), God the Son (Word), and God the Holy Spirit, because only one Person of the Holy Trinity became human: God the Word.

Jesus is God the Word Incarnate: "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." You accept that too, yes? Mary is His mother as Scripture repeatedly states. Elizabeth was the first to call Mary "mother of my Lord (God)", because She conceived and gave birth to Him, and Thomas rightly called Jesus "my Lord and my God!". Hopefully you accept that too. If so, how is it not accurate to call Mary the mother of God?

Mariam has no titles. She is not the "Queen of Heaven" (the title of a pagan goddess from the O.T.). She is not "Mediatrix" or "Co-redemptrix", or any other titles created by the traditions of men.

 

[Moonwood]

Why single out Mariam?

Because Mary is the topic right now and you said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?

What about her father and mother; and their fathers and mothers; and everyone else whom God used to bring about the prophesied circumstances of our Lord's birth, life, death and resurrection?

Based on your understanding of what the prefix "co-" means, what do you think the answer is?

Why capitalise "Mother", in "Mother of God", as if it were a title?

The word "mother" in itself functions as a formal and legal title, as well as a biological and social description...

As for why I capitalize it when referring to Mary, its out respect and reverence for Her.

 

[Moonwood]

As I've posted previously, Mariam was the mother of God-manifest-in-the-flesh, not God generally; and, a point of contention with the R.C. poster is that he capitalises "Mother" (in "Mother of God"), as if it were some kind of title.

I see David left out how I told him "Mother of God" doesn't mean Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as well like he assumes, only Mother of God the Word Incarnate. Is it deliberate because he WANTS to find a problem where there is none?

 

[David1701]

Because Mary is the topic right now and you said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?



Based on your understanding of what the prefix "co-" means, what do you think the answer is?



The word "mother" in itself functions as a formal and legal title, as well as a biological and social description...

As for why I capitalize it when referring to Mary, its out respect and reverence for Her.

<sigh>
Never mind.

 

[Moonwood]

In the flesh she gave birth to Jesus so the Word of God could take upon Himself flesh and come in to this world to go to the Cross and be High Priest over the New Covenant. That's the end of Mary's calling. After watching over Jesus growing to be an adult, she's out.

So yes she was Jesus' momma according to the flesh but she is not equal with Jesus, she is not co-savior or co-redemptrix, and as someone who has passed away from this earth she cannot pray to God for people or be in contact with people here on earth and she's not God's mother as in God answers to her.

It's very telling that catholics don't have a direct relationship with the Father thru Jesus Christ and they are always looking for someone to go through to get to God such as Mary, or their priest, or some "saint". And to be fair many protestants are the same way because they call their pastor or some church official anytime they have a problem to go thru them to talk to God or ask God for help.

The doctrines catholics follow make Mary in to an idol and catholics have gone far beyond what is written in God's Word which they justify by claiming they go by their own made up religious traditions which are not found in God's Word as though the Lord totally forgot to put their religious traditions in His Word.

I'm friends with several catholics and they are not actually born again and do not know the Lord Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. What they have is their own religious traditions that are not based on the doctrine of Christ. I mean they are nice people and all, but there are nice people in all the other false religions too so being a nice person and meaning well does not mean someone knows the Lord.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The catholics do not follow the doctrine of Christ by their own admission. They instead follow their own religious traditions known as catholicism which is not taught by Jesus and His Apostles. Protestants do the same thing in that they follow reformed theology rather than the doctrine of Christ so they too have their own dead religious traditions just like the catholics.

I think you're bringing up a number of issues that are separate from the point I've been making.

The question is much simpler:

Who was Mary the mother of?

You acknowledge that Mary is Jesus' biological mother according to the flesh. I agree.

But Jesus is not a human person separate from the Word of God.

Scripture says:

"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

It does not say the Word became united to a separate human person named Jesus.

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, says:

"And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

And Thomas says to Jesus:

"My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)
So the same Jesus whom Mary bore is the same Jesus whom Thomas calls God.

Therefore, when Christians call Mary "Mother of God," they are not saying Mary created God's divine nature, existed before God, or has authority over God.

They are simply affirming that the child She bore was God the Son incarnate.

Whether Catholics have additional doctrines about Mary is a separate discussion. The issue I've been discussing is the identity of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is God incarnate, and Mary is His mother, then how can She be only "the mother of the man Jesus" without separating the man Jesus from the divine Son?

 

[Moonwood]

Placing anything or anyone between the petitioner and God is idolatry ... For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

If "placing anyone between the petitioner and God" is idolatry, then asking fellow Christians on earth to pray for you would also be idolatry.

After all, when you ask another believer to pray for you, you are asking that person to intercede with God on your behalf. Yet Scripture explicitly encourages believers to pray for one another (1 Timothy 2:1; James 5:16).

Therefore, 1 Timothy 2:5 cannot mean that every form of intercession by another believer violates Christ's unique mediation. Otherwise Paul's instruction to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others would contradict his statement only a few verses later.

The question is not whether others may intercede. Scripture clearly teaches that they may.

The question is whether death removes a believer from the body of Christ and prevents that believer from interceding for fellow Christians. Since those in Christ are alive with Him, that is the point that must be demonstrated.

Catholics do not place Mary between themselves and God as a rival mediator. Catholics believe all prayer and grace come through Christ alone. Asking Mary to pray for us is understood in the same sense as asking any other member of Christ's body to pray for us: a participation in Christ's mediation, not a replacement of it.

 

[Moonwood]

Roman Catholicism has a mediatorial priesthood...

Catholics do not believe priests replace Christ as mediator. Priests minister by participation in Christ's priesthood. Christ remains the one mediator between God and man.

Otherwise, by the same reasoning, every pastor who preaches, baptizes, counsels, or prays for others would be acting as a rival mediator to Christ.

What do you think Jesus spent three years doing with the Twelve? He wasn't merely creating a loose association of independent believers. He appointed apostles, gave them authority to teach, baptize, forgive sins (John 20:21-23), celebrate the Eucharist ("Do this in remembrance of me"), and shepherd His flock.

The real question is not whether Christ established ministers within His Church, but whether that authority ended with the Apostles or continued through their successors.

A ministerial priesthood does not compete with Christ's mediation any more than a pastor's ministry competes with Christ's mediation. All Christian ministry derives its authority from Christ and participates in His work; none of it replaces Him.