Why is there a new song in heaven?

[6 Stories]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

It appears that in this vision angels assume different forms, including various creatures and men. They are representing divine authority eliminating satanic and human rebellion from God's Kingdom, which is what happened when Man was cast out of the garden of Eden.

This "New Song" represents, I think, a 2nd chance for Man to return to paradise with God. It's a restructuring of the original promise of Eternal Life with God, represented by the Tree of Life. The original promise was lost, but now we have a "new song," supported by angelic authority.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

6 stories, In medieval Europe, a bard was a poet who composed and performed songs about heroes and their deeds. Bards often accompanied themselves with musical instruments such as harps or lyres. Perhaps the songs being sung in heaven are like the songs that bards sang, telling of victories.

 

[PinSeeker]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I would submit to you, 6Stories (interesting moniker!), that you should see eternity in these two songs... eternity past and eternity future, or at least Creation in the first and the new Creation ~ New Heaven and New Earth ("Behold, I am making all things new"; Revelation 21:5) ~ in the second.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1st Song
Rev 4:9-11
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Then in Rev 5, there is a new song.
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Bible doesan't say for sure, so anything we conclude is a guess. but we will know when we sing that new song!

 

[6 Stories]

It appears that in this vision angels assume different forms, including various creatures and men. They are representing divine authority eliminating satanic and human rebellion from God's Kingdom, which is what happened when Man was cast out of the garden of Eden.

This "New Song" represents, I think, a 2nd chance for Man to return to paradise with God. It's a restructuring of the original promise of Eternal Life with God, represented by the Tree of Life. The original promise was lost, but now we have a "new song," supported by angelic authority.

In my last thread, "When did Jesus receive the Revelation scroll/book?" the thief on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus on the day that Jesus descended into hell. Even the Paradise created for man was not with God at that time, which would be consistent with the sin curse of man inflicting all creation.
Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I agree with human rebellion separating mankind from God's Kingdom.
I agree that mankind was separated for a time from the Garden of Eden/Paradise.
I deduce that the Garden of Eden/Paradise was separated from God's Kingdom in heaven because of sin until the time of the new song, the time Jesus returned to heaven.
I also agree that the "New Song" represents a 2nd chance for Man to return to Eternal Life with God.

Now there are 2 questions that may have the same answer:
When did mankind's separation from Paradise come to an end? (Since the thief went to Paradise in hell with Jesus)
What does the first song represent?

 

[6 Stories]

6 stories, In medieval Europe, a bard was a poet who composed and performed songs about heroes and their deeds. Bards often accompanied themselves with musical instruments such as harps or lyres. Perhaps the songs being sung in heaven are like the songs that bards sang, telling of victories.

I like it!

What and when are the victories?

 

[6 Stories]

I would submit to you, 6Stories (interesting moniker!), that you should see eternity in these two songs... eternity past and eternity future, or at least Creation in the first and the new Creation ~ New Heaven and New Earth ("Behold, I am making all things new"; Revelation 21:5) ~ in the second.

Grace and peace to you.

My moniker comes from my belief that chapters 6-19 of the Revelation contain 6 separate stories that end at the time of Jesus' return to earth, just as the 4 Gospels are 4 separate stories that end with the death and resurrection of Jesus. My views are available on YouTube at WTEW Bible Studies where you can also download my Revelation commentary.

I definitely see Creation in the first song, but I'm not sure how the second song relates to the New Heaven and New Earth.

I do see eternal relationships in both songs.

 

[6 Stories]

Bible doesan't say for sure, so anything we conclude is a guess. but we will know when we sing that new song!

I think the whole of the Revelation has fit into that guessing category for almost 2,000 years.
All guesses are acceptable although conclusions are regularly rejected. I believe that this is how the Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth.

Although I'm hesitant to bring up these 2 other songs without more discussion on the first 2 songs:

Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Rev 15:
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In my last thread, "When did Jesus receive the Revelation scroll/book?" the thief on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus on the day that Jesus descended into hell. Even the Paradise created for man was not with God at that time, which would be consistent with the sin curse of man inflicting all creation.
Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I agree with human rebellion separating mankind from God's Kingdom.
I agree that mankind was separated for a time from the Garden of Eden/Paradise.
I deduce that the Garden of Eden/Paradise was separated from God's Kingdom in heaven because of sin until the time of the new song, the time Jesus returned to heaven.
I also agree that the "New Song" represents a 2nd chance for Man to return to Eternal Life with God.

Now there are 2 questions that may have the same answer:
When did mankind's separation from Paradise come to an end? (Since the thief went to Paradise in hell with Jesus)
What does the first song represent?

The 1st song was, I think, in Eden. Also, Israel had a 1st song under the Law of Moses. In each case, "paradise" was lost--the blessings of perfect obedience were lost. But in each case, a measure of paradise was reissued, on a lesser level, as a relationship with God with only limited blessings.

Perhaps we can over-literalize these visions and symbols, since they are designed to show the story of redemption generally, instead of giving exact timelines or chronologies? The details are, as you seem to suggest, absent, forcing us to either fill in the details or accept the statements on their face.

To be with the Lord in a state of being blessed is, by definition, "paradise." It is, more technically, the place on earth where blessings may be experienced. When Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, he was simply saying that the thief would continue to be with him and would be with him in a blessed state of acceptance, even if not yet on the earth.

I think you're right to ask the questions, however, because there was certainly a difference in the position of the dead, saint and sinner, both before the cross and after the cross. Jesus visited the place where all the dead were, both righteous and unrighteous, to declare deliverance from death for all.

But there is a 2nd death that is imposed upon the unrighteous, so that being in a state of separation from blessings on earth they will continue to be thus separated. On the other hand, Jesus went to the place of the dead to assure the righteous that they will experience victory over death and thus obtain a new Paradise with Christ when they are raised from the dead.

Christ declared to the saints this victory over death, but they have remained in a state of death, not having immortal bodies yet. They are, however, in a blessed state of fellowship with the Lord, though they only are given legal status that enables them to be certified owners of new immortal bodies in the future.

In sum, I see little difference between Paradise with God before the cross and Paradise with God after the cross, inasmuch as Paradise is being with God, and the saints never lose this place. But technically, Paradise is a blessed state on the earth with God, which suffered a setback at the Fall of Man.

Paradise was always a renewed offer to Man after the Fall, even if it was a limited and restricted offer. A "New Song" was always made available to us by God. Man never had to be completely separated from God, but could continue to obey God and thus walk with God and be blessed by Him on earth.

Although Man was generally cast out of Paradise on earth, Grace was always active to reestablish Man's ability to remain with God in a blessed state. The Law was given to perpetuate Israel's relationship with God, which allowed them limited blessings through obedience.

But at the cross, it was determined that no measure of human obedience could obtain the kind of Paradise God originally wanted to give Man, an eternal state of blessedness with Him forever, or Eternal Life. What saints got after the cross was the reassurance of their continued relationship with God, with the legal guarantee that they will return to blessedness with Christ on earth. Since the departed saints continue to be with Christ, they are already, to some extent, in "Paradise." But in the future we will get "Paradise Restored."

 

[PinSeeker]

... the thief on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus on the day that Jesus descended into hell.

Well, the day they were crucified and died. Jesus's "descension into hell" was being forsaken by the Father because of His (Jesus's) having taken on sin. I'm sure that will open up a can of worms, if not with you, with some others...

Even the Paradise created for man was not with God at that time, which would be consistent with the sin curse of man inflicting all creation.

Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

Christ is being spoken of here, 6Stories, and the Greek there is better translated, "...He was not abandoned to Hades." So Christ did not actually go to the dwelling place of the dead, but was in Paradise ~ and the thief crucified on His right was with Him ~ that very day that He (and he) died, just as He said. Again, the hell Christ descended to should be understood to mean that on the Cross, Christ was abandoned by the Father. Thus His cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

I agree with human rebellion separating mankind from God's Kingdom.

Okay. Well, good, but there are many who have been born again of the Spirit and are no longer separated from God and His Kingdom. It has not been ushered in in full yet, for sure; that will happen when Jesus returns. This is what we call the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Kingdom of God.

I agree that mankind was separated for a time from the Garden of Eden/Paradise.

Okay, and we still are, though many of us are assured that we will not be when Jesus returns. The assurance of God of things hoped for and conviction by the Holy Spirit of things unseen... this is what faith is (Hebrews 11:1).

I deduce that the Garden of Eden/Paradise was separated from God's Kingdom in heaven because of sin until the time of the new song, the time Jesus returned to heaven.

The time of the new song, as I intimated before, is when Jesus returns to earth (and brings heaven down to us), when God makes all things new. This will be Eden/Paradise permanently renewed/restored.

I also agree that the "New Song" represents a 2nd chance for Man to return to Eternal Life with God.

I would say that it's a promise that man will then have eternal life with God.

When did mankind's separation from Paradise come to an end? (Since the thief went to Paradise in hell with Jesus)

It will come to an end when Jesus returns, and after He executes the final Judgment.

What does the first song represent?

Creation. Really from Creation until Christ returns.

My moniker comes from my belief that chapters 6-19 of the Revelation contain 6 separate stories that end at the time of Jesus' return to earth....

Very good. Actually, there are 7... Seven is a very Biblical number...

...just as the 4 Gospels are 4 separate stories that end with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Um, well, the same story, with different purposes in mind and from different perspectives... together giving us a fuller picture of it all. Right?

My views are available on YouTube at WTEW Bible Studies where you can also download my Revelation commentary.

Hmmmm...

I definitely see Creation in the first song, but I'm not sure how the second song relates to the New Heaven and New Earth.

Well, you understand what I said above, right? You may not agree, but I think I answered that question...

I do see eternal relationships in both songs.

Very good.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

I think the whole of the Revelation has fit into that guessing category for almost 2,000 years.
All guesses are acceptable although conclusions are regularly rejected. I believe that this is how the Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth.

Although I'm hesitant to bring up these 2 other songs without more discussion on the first 2 songs:

Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Rev 15:
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 4 depicts celebration in heaven, and the giving of praise to the LORD, God Almighty, I don't see a depiction of singing either the song of Moses or the song of the Lamb???

The new song which the song of the Lamb undoubtedly is, is, I believe of salvation through Christ. The song of Moses is also a song pointing to the salvation from God, but it is the song of Old that Israel sang after Moses delivered the nation physically. The song of Moses symbolically points to the song of the Lamb. The first symbolizing salvation through the LORD, God Almighty, as Moses safely led them to physical salvation. And the LORD, God Almighty destroying the enemies that pursued them. The song of the Lamb is also a song of celebration of victory through the LORD, God Almighty by the blood of the Lamb and resurrection from the dead.

Before Christ literally came to earth to redeem us from sin and death, none before His coming could learn the song. Only the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel could learn the new song. By faith they believed the Messiah would come to redeem them, but they had only the promise of His coming salvation through the song of Moses that pointed them to Christ.

Revelation 14:3 (KJV) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I like it!

What and when are the victories?

John quotes the words of the song, which indicate that Jesus has been granted the honor of opening the scrolls because he obeyed the Father even unto death.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think the whole of the Revelation has fit into that guessing category for almost 2,000 years.
All guesses are acceptable although conclusions are regularly rejected. I believe that this is how the Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth.

Although I'm hesitant to bring up these 2 other songs without more discussion on the first 2 songs:

Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Rev 15:
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Yes many things in Revelation have yet to be revealed conclusively and many many many people have written many many many books telling us what those unsure things actually mean.

After fifty years of walking with teh Lord I am convinced guessing is dangerous. We cannot know how right or wrong we are. Too many have gotten entrapped by their own guesswork and have gone off on wild tangents in the body of Christ. I believe the safest and most biblical position is- we can offer opinions, but have to wait to be sure.

 

[6 Stories]

The 1st song was, I think, in Eden. Also, Israel had a 1st song under the Law of Moses. In each case, "paradise" was lost--the blessings of perfect obedience were lost. But in each case, a measure of paradise was reissued, on a lesser level, as a relationship with God with only limited blessings.

I believe the 1st song shows that people all over the earth can come to a relationship with God through creation as explained in Psalm 19 and Romans 1:18-23. In that sense, I think it still exists. Your point is well taken about limited blessings.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Perhaps we can over-literalize these visions and symbols, since they are designed to show the story of redemption generally, instead of giving exact timelines or chronologies? The details are, as you seem to suggest, absent, forcing us to either fill in the details or accept the statements on their face.

I am hoping to use these songs to help establish a chronology.
1st song chronology: After the fall through today.
2nd song chronology: After Jesus ascended into heaven through today. I believe the visions in chapters 4 and 5 of the Revelation surround the time of Jesus' ascension and not some future time as most believe.

To be with the Lord in a state of being blessed is, by definition, "paradise." It is, more technically, the place on earth where blessings may be experienced. When Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, he was simply saying that the thief would continue to be with him and would be with him in a blessed state of acceptance, even if not yet on the earth.

I think you're right to ask the questions, however, because there was certainly a difference in the position of the dead, saint and sinner, both before the cross and after the cross. Jesus visited the place where all the dead were, both righteous and unrighteous, to declare deliverance from death for all.

But there is a 2nd death that is imposed upon the unrighteous, so that being in a state of separation from blessings on earth they will continue to be thus separated. On the other hand, Jesus went to the place of the dead to assure the righteous that they will experience victory over death and thus obtain a new Paradise with Christ when they are raised from the dead.

Christ declared to the saints this victory over death, but they have remained in a state of death, not having immortal bodies yet. They are, however, in a blessed state of fellowship with the Lord, though they only are given legal status that enables them to be certified owners of new immortal bodies in the future.

I agree with all of this and I hope to move more to the direction of the timing of the songs and away from questions about Paradise.

In sum, I see little difference between Paradise with God before the cross and Paradise with God after the cross, inasmuch as Paradise is being with God, and the saints never lose this place. But technically, Paradise is a blessed state on the earth with God, which suffered a setback at the Fall of Man.

Paradise was always a renewed offer to Man after the Fall, even if it was a limited and restricted offer. A "New Song" was always made available to us by God. Man never had to be completely separated from God, but could continue to obey God and thus walk with God and be blessed by Him on earth.

I like the "New Song."

Although Man was generally cast out of Paradise on earth, Grace was always active to reestablish Man's ability to remain with God in a blessed state. The Law was given to perpetuate Israel's relationship with God, which allowed them limited blessings through obedience.

I think the Law was given as vows as Israel was betrothed to God at Mt. Sinai. The Law was given to show that man could not measure up in a relationship with God.

But at the cross, it was determined that no measure of human obedience could obtain the kind of Paradise God originally wanted to give Man, an eternal state of blessedness with Him forever, or Eternal Life. What saints got after the cross was the reassurance of their continued relationship with God, with the legal guarantee that they will return to blessedness with Christ on earth. Since the departed saints continue to be with Christ, they are already, to some extent, in "Paradise." But in the future we will get "Paradise Restored."

Well said.

 

[6 Stories]

Well, the day they were crucified and died. Jesus's "descension into hell" was being forsaken by the Father because of His (Jesus's) having taken on sin. I'm sure that will open up a can of worms, if not with you, with some others...




Christ is being spoken of here, 6Stories, and the Greek there is better translated, "...He was not abandoned to Hades." So Christ did not actually go to the dwelling place of the dead, but was in Paradise ~ and the thief crucified on His right was with Him ~ that very day that He (and he) died, just as He said. Again, the hell Christ descended to should be understood to mean that on the Cross, Christ was abandoned by the Father. Thus His cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

How do you then explain Matt 12:40?
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Okay. Well, good, but there are many who have been born again of the Spirit and are no longer separated from God and His Kingdom. It has not been ushered in in full yet, for sure; that will happen when Jesus returns. This is what we call the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Kingdom of God.


Okay, and we still are, though many of us are assured that we will not be when Jesus returns. The assurance of God of things hoped for and conviction by the Holy Spirit of things unseen... this is what faith is (Hebrews 11:1).


The time of the new song, as I intimated before, is when Jesus returns to earth (and brings heaven down to us), when God makes all things new. This will be Eden/Paradise permanently renewed/restored.

This seems to be the popular point of view. I believe it is the time Jesus ascended into heaven and was restored with the glory he had with the Father before he emptied some of that and became a man. I don't know of any other time that Jesus would not have had something that the Father had, that is, the Revelation scroll.

Jesus emptied himself in Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus was restored in Phil 2:9-11 which I believe reflects the Rev 5 vision.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I would say that it's a promise that man will then have eternal life with God.


It will come to an end when Jesus returns, and after He executes the final Judgment.


Creation. Really from Creation until Christ returns.


Very good. Actually, there are 7... Seven is a very Biblical number...

6 stories ending at the time of Jesus' return.
Rev 6:1-6:17, Rev 7:1-8:5, Rev 8:6-11:19, Rev 12:7-14:20, Rev 15:1-16:21, and Rev 18:1-19:21.
The 7th story would be Rev 20, the time of the millennial reign of Jesus.
The 8th story is Rev 21-22, the new heavens and new earth.

Um, well, the same story, with different purposes in mind and from different perspectives... together giving us a fuller picture of it all. Right?

Exactly!

Hmmmm...


Well, you understand what I said above, right? You may not agree, but I think I answered that question...


Very good.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe the 1st song shows that people all over the earth can come to a relationship with God through creation as explained in Psalm 19 and Romans 1:18-23. In that sense, I think it still exists. Your point is well taken about limited blessings.

Thanks. It's purely speculative, but an interesting thought. God writes songs? Why shouldn't he? He created us little song birds.

I am hoping to use these songs to help establish a chronology.
1st song chronology: After the fall through today.
2nd song chronology: After Jesus ascended into heaven through today. I believe the visions in chapters 4 and 5 of the Revelation surround the time of Jesus' ascension and not some future time as most believe.

You sound like you have a teaching gift? Teachers like to put things into structure so they can be taught visually and logically, so it can be remembered. I like it! And as I shared, that's kind of how I see it too.

BTW, I had a teacher a very long time ago, and she wrote a little booklet showing how the Bible expressed a motif of dualities. 1st Adam/2nd Adam, Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, 1st generation in the wilderness, 2nd generation in the wilderness, OT/NT, old creation/new creation, etc. etc.
Maybe we should add to this: 1st song/2nd song?

I agree with all of this and I hope to move more to the direction of the timing of the songs and away from questions about Paradise.

I like the "New Song."

Yes, I think the New Song may be our "2nd Chance?"

I think the Law was given as vows as Israel was betrothed to God at Mt. Sinai. The Law was given to show that man could not measure up in a relationship with God.

Well said.

Yes, God sort of "married" Israel by covenant of the Law, though God anticipated not just that there would be some failure under the Law but that the Law as a covenant would itself be broken. However, God intended only to show that the Law was there to sustain God's presence with His People as long as they were faithful to Him, and that there would always be hope for restoration whenever they failed or whenever that system failed.

And so, under the New Covenant we are "renewing our vows" and doing what was unlawful to do--we are remarrying our spiritual Husband, God. Under the Law, people were not supposed to divorce someone, humiliating them, and then return to marry them, subjecting them to a possible 2nd humiliation.

But in God's Kingdom, everything we've done wrong, in terms of unfaithfulness, has been forgiven and forgotten. It's as if we never committed spiritual adultery at all. Our fellowship with the Lord remains unbroken, even though the 1st Covenant failed with Israel. So listen to the strangest of so-called "Divorces:"

Isa 50.1 This is what the Lord says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

No, the Law cannot sever our relationship with God. It is now secured as eternal through the Lord Jesus. We can now sing a New Song. And amazingly, we will *never* grow tired of hearing it!

 

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Rev 4 depicts celebration in heaven, and the giving of praise to the LORD, God Almighty, I don't see a depiction of singing either the song of Moses or the song of the Lamb???

The 2 songs in Rev 4 and Rev 5 are sung by the elders in heaven. It is only after Jesus' ascension that the redeemed are seen in heaven and not in hades.
The song in Rev 15 is sung by the redeemed in heaven who were transferred from hades and identified initially with Moses. It is also sung by those who died in Christ and never went to hades.

The new song which the song of the Lamb undoubtedly is, is, I believe of salvation through Christ. The song of Moses is also a song pointing to the salvation from God, but it is the song of Old that Israel sang after Moses delivered the nation physically. The song of Moses symbolically points to the song of the Lamb. The first symbolizing salvation through the LORD, God Almighty, as Moses safely led them to physical salvation. And the LORD, God Almighty destroying the enemies that pursued them. The song of the Lamb is also a song of celebration of victory through the LORD, God Almighty by the blood of the Lamb and resurrection from the dead.

Before Christ literally came to earth to redeem us from sin and death, none before His coming could learn the song. Only the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel could learn the new song. By faith they believed the Messiah would come to redeem them, but they had only the promise of His coming salvation through the song of Moses that pointed them to Christ.

Revelation 14:3 (KJV) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The 144,000 are the first of those who will ascend into heaven in spiritual/resurrected bodies as did Jesus. The rest are the harvest in Rev 14:14-16.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

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John quotes the words of the song, which indicate that Jesus has been granted the honor of opening the scrolls because he obeyed the Father even unto death.

Thank you.

 

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Thanks. It's purely speculative, but an interesting thought. God writes songs? Why shouldn't he? He created us little song birds.

You sound like you have a teaching gift? Teachers like to put things into structure so they can be taught visually and logically, so it can be remembered. I like it! And as I shared, that's kind of how I see it too.

BTW, I had a teacher a very long time ago, and she wrote a little booklet showing how the Bible expressed a motif of dualities. 1st Adam/2nd Adam, Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, 1st generation in the wilderness, 2nd generation in the wilderness, OT/NT, old creation/new creation, etc. etc.
Maybe we should add to this: 1st song/2nd song?

Yes, I think the New Song may be our "2nd Chance?"

Yes, God sort of "married" Israel by covenant of the Law, though God anticipated not just that there would be some failure under the Law but that the Law as a covenant would itself be broken. However, God intended only to show that the Law was there to sustain God's presence with His People as long as they were faithful to Him, and that there would always be hope for restoration whenever they failed or whenever that system failed.

And so, under the New Covenant we are "renewing our vows" and doing what was unlawful to do--we are remarrying our spiritual Husband, God. Under the Law, people were not supposed to divorce someone, humiliating them, and then return to marry them, subjecting them to a possible 2nd humiliation.

But in God's Kingdom, everything we've done wrong, in terms of unfaithfulness, has been forgiven and forgotten. It's as if we never committed spiritual adultery at all. Our fellowship with the Lord remains unbroken, even though the 1st Covenant failed with Israel. So listen to the strangest of so-called "Divorces:"

Isa 50.1 This is what the Lord says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

No, the Law cannot sever our relationship with God. It is now secured as eternal through the Lord Jesus. We can now sing a New Song. And amazingly, we will *never* grow tired of hearing it!

Great post. Thanks for the kind words. I like the duality.
I plan to retire from regular full-time work in March and hope to use my time teaching people about the return of Jesus.