William Miller, A Case Study in Poor Spiritual Discernment #1

[Pavel Mosko]

Matthew 24:36 New King James Version
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [a]heaven, but My Father only.

Revelation 16:15
15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Imagine this, you are a Christian revivalist. You believe you have discovered that you have a secret formula for predicting Christ's return in spite of a number of very prominent Bible passages that caution you from doing that very same thing. Not only that, but you believe that the only true Christians are the one's taking part in your movement. You equate the commonsense rejection of such assumptions as people rejecting Christ himself!




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[Matthias]

Matthew 24:36 New King James Version
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [a]heaven, but My Father only.

Revelation 16:15
15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Imagine this, you are a Christian revivalist. You believe you have discovered that you have a secret formula for predicting Christ's return in spite of a number of very prominent Bible passages that caution you from doing that very same thing. Not only that, but you believe that the only true Christians are the one's taking part in your movement. You equate the commonsense rejection of such assumptions as people rejecting Christ himself!


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It is an interesting case. You would think that people would learn from it and refrain from setting dates but it continues to happen, and probably will until Jesus returns.

Are you part of any particular movement? If you are, do you believe the only true Christians are those who are also and only taking part in the movement you’re in?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I wonder why Catholics have not engaged during their long history in trying to predict the Second Coming of Jesus using prophetic calculations. Does anyone have an idea of the reason for this?

I mean, I don't know of any Pope or high clerical authority that had entertained in that. But I can't be wrong.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It is an interesting case. You would think that people would learn from it and refrain from setting dates but it continues to happen, and probably will until Jesus returns.

Are you part of any particular movement? If you are, do you believe the only true Christians are those who are also and only taking part in the movement you’re in?

Sure, I was in the nondenominational charismatic movement in the 90s and that was very educational in many ways (both pro and con).

I see this topic as being really important for dealing with Seventh Day Adventism because that entire movement and Church is built on an extremely questionable Biblical, Historical and Theological foundation and at it all starts with Miller.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sure, I was in the nondenominational charismatic movement in the 90s and that was very educational in many ways (both pro and con).

I see this topic as being really important for dealing with Seventh Day Adventism because that entire movement and Church is built on an extremely questionable Biblical, Historical and Theological foundation and at it all starts with Miller.

Hi Pavel

Historically, it is founded on that movement.
But to "deal" (using your words) with Seventh Day Adventism, we have to observe how Seventh Day Adventists see themselves now. Their current self-identity, not only from the pulpit but, more importantly, from the way they live their lives.
I would say it is established on 4 views:

1. Jesus is the Savior.
2. Jesus is coming really soon.
3. We must obey God's Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath.
4. We must follow a healthy, holy lifestyle. Such lifestyle is inspired in the teachings of Ellen G White.

SDA know Miller was wrong in having tried to predict Jesus return, but replace that error with a positive note: the doctrine of a celestial tabernacle and a judgement process happening right now.
A doctrine that is cherished at church meetings, but barely applicable to their daily lives.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Hi Pavel

Historically, it is founded on that movement.
But to "deal" (using your words) with Seventh Day Adventism, we have to observe how Seventh Day Adventists see themselves now. Their current self-identity, not only from the pulpit but, more importantly, from the way they live their lives.
I would say it is established on 4 views:

1. Jesus is the Savior.
2. Jesus is coming really soon.
3. We must obey God's Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath.
4. We must follow a healthy, holy lifestyle. Such lifestyle is inspired in the teachings of Ellen G White.

SDA know Miller was wrong in having tried to predict Jesus return, but replace that error with a positive note: the doctrine of a celestial tabernacle and a judgement process happening right now.
A doctrine that is cherished at church meetings, but barely applicable to their daily lives.

Malachi 3:6-8 King James Version​

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89-90​

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New International Version​

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ל Lamedh​

89 Your word, Lord, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens.
90 Your faithfulness continues through all generations;
you established the earth, and it endures.



Pancho there are lots of scriptures that God's word, his nature is steadfast and enduring. Infact the Lexical meaning of Truth in Hebrew has that quality. Yet it is funny, when it comes Seventh Day Adventism and it's "Present Truth Message" you don't get that. Sure, you get it when it comes to Sabbath Keeping and why they believe they are the Remnant, but there are a lot of other things where they seem to be changing the rules of the game, after the fact in a way that is basically self serving for their movement. Take Sabbath keeping for instance, the Millerite movement was not a Sabbath Keeping movement, yet Adventists consider them "The Church of Philadelphia" in the book of Revelation which is high praise! (This kind of discrepancy would lead most people to Cognitive Dissonance.) And the same goes for the very early Adventist movement most of them, except for Joseph Bates were not Sabbath keepers, and even Bates Sabbath keeping came very recent in the movement from reading a pamphlet by the Seventh Day Baptists.

Isaiah 45:19-21​

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19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.​

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Unfortunately, with the early revelations of Adventist like Hiram Edson, Ellen Harmon/white you do get this. You get a secret Gnostic type revelation that cannot really substantiated by anything other than the persons testimony and the fact that Adventists believe it. ​

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi, @Pavel Mosko

Now that I think about it, it's weird that, as SDA, I believed that Sunday-keepers would fiercely persecute Sabbath-keepers just before the Second Coming of Christ.
It is clear that, as you have mentioned, @Pavel Mosko, the original leaders and members of the movement were not Sabbath-keepers, and still they are regarded as good Christians by SDAs.
SDAs can argue that they didn't know the importance of Sabbath keeping, so they cannot be judged. I congratulate SDA for not judging them, but why would SDAs judge modern Sunday-keepers?
William Miller's followers had the same Bible, and access to the same arguments that modern Christians have nowadays. Jews existed then as they exist now, as a living testimony of the continuity of Sabbath. So why condemning ones and forgiving others?

So, it looks as if SDAs are considering their particular movement a historical breakthrough in the salvation of men. Before SDA,s God forgave ignorance about Sabbath... But after SDAs, it has become (or will soon become) crystal clear, so God will not forgive it.

I'm probably exaggerating or misrepresenting what the common SDA thinks in their heart, but this is what I get from their teachings.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Hi, @Pavel Mosko

Now that I think about it, it's weird that, as SDA, I believed that Sunday-keepers would fiercely persecute Sabbath-keepers just before the Second Coming of Christ.

Pancho the Sunday Law dramatics of SDA are foolish. Below are the 21 Coptic Martyrs right before they were beheaded by ISIS in January 2015. It is beyond the pale of SDA wringing their hands at some future coming persecution when people are actually dyeing fro the cause of Christ now, or otherwise being severely persecuted for it. I was a member of a Coptic Orthodox church for 8 years or so, before moving out of the area, I am more aware of what Christians in non-Christian lands go through. In Cairo most of the Christians live in a giant garbage dump, and work like low caste blue collar workers, because the Sharia law prevents most from being in other better trades except for a few that manage to get a higher education. There is systematic kidnapping and rape of Coptic girls for the purposes of Muslims getting wives and new converts to Islam. Anyway, if the great fantasy of Sunday Law persecution ever comes true it will be a small speck of the real persecution actual Christians get because of Christ, but I have good news Ellen White has been so wrong on all her other prophecies that you should be safe on this one as well.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Jude 3​

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King James Version​

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3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


@Pancho Frijoles I not only study the Bible, but the Lexicon of scripture, and early Church history, and I can say that Sabbath keeping has not really been a part of Christianity since the days of the early New Testament. It was not made mandatory in Acts 15, and their are other passages from saint Paul that would likewise speak against it. Furthermore notable Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch (discipled by Saint John the Divine) were not in favor of it because keeping Sabbath implies that you are still looking for the coming Messiah in much the same way as the Jews who rejected Jesus were still looking for their own future Messiah, and there is a lot more to say but I will leave it there for now.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you, @Pavel Mosko, for having shared with us your first-hand testimony of the hardships of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
I thank God you are safe and thriving in a free country.

Fortunately, and forgive me if what I'm going to say does not resonate with you because of your personal experience, religious persecution is in our days is much less frequent and intense than in any other period of history. It is confined to certain countries and communities.

A world-wide persecution of SDA by other Christians is really unthinkable.

 

[quietthinker]

William Miller, A Case Study in Poor Spiritual Discernment #1​

There are billions of us people on the Planet Pavel, and you're going to start pulling one of them apart because you feel you have greater insight.
Why not just reveal your greater insight into where you consider value lies and folk will draw their own conclusions?