You can become more like God via theosis/divinization and man inherited death, not sin

[Wick Stick]

Deification? That is a heavily loaded word, which again is not found in scripture. Scripture says there were no other Gods before Him and will not be after Him either. Scripture also says we must not go beyond what is written. Jesus said we shall be "like the angels". Angels are referred to as gods and sons of God in scripture.

Agreed. Scripture doesn't say that we will become deities. It says that we will become one with God - THE God.

 

[Episkopos]

John said earlier, that the Orthodox liturgy is man made. It is scripture actually, from beginning to end, which l discovered during attendance of it.

People parrot scriptures all the time to give a kind of religious legitimacy to the proceedings called "services" or "masses". But the understanding of what is being read is lacking so often. The problem is that by parroting verses and agreeing in principle with them, that somehow that makes us right with God. Or that either God or people are being "ministered" to as opposed to being fooled into believing a man-made convention is either divine or spiritual.

The only apostolic tradition worth retaining in a universal way is to be both led by the Spirit and filled with the Spirit. The NT is about LIFE. Being directed FROM the life and INTO the life. The rest is details.

 

[Hepzibah]

People parrot scriptures all the time to give a kind of religious legitimacy to the proceedings called "services" or "masses". But the understanding of what is being read is lacking so often. The problem is that by parroting verses and agreeing in principle with them, that somehow that makes us right with God. Or tha6t either God are being "ministered" to as opposed to being fooled into believing a man-made convention is either divine or spiritual.

The only apostolic tradition worth retaining in a universal way is to be both led by the Spirit and filled with the Spirit. The NT is about LIFE. Being directed FROM the life and INTO the life. The rest is details.

Well we know this and a lot of Orthodox are just pew seaters or rather standers, but that is not the point of what I said and instead of admitting you were wrong, you had to twist it. Not an honest reply.

"John said earlier, that the Orthodox liturgy is man made. It is scripture actually, from beginning to end, which l discovered during attendance of it."

 

[SavedInHim]

Eastern Orthodox here and opposed to Sola Scriptura since the Bible only came after tradition much like writing by hand came before typing on a computer. There was no Bible in ancient Christianity. If all Bibles disappeared over night, what would church look like? It would look Orthodox/Catholic.

We do not inherit sin, we inherit a fallen world and with that, death. Imagine your parents were guilty of murdering several people, would that make you guilty of the same thing? Absolutely not. Instead, you would inherit a life of being adopted or sitting in foster care as your parents would most likely be imprisoned. We can still however sin, but that’s why we seek forgiveness and should still seek forgiveness since many times we sin without even being aware.

Salvation also happens through theosis by becoming more like Christ since faith without works is dead. Obviously, one cannot become more like Christ without faith in Christ. The issue with Protestantism is that it threw out the baby along with the bathwater due to some bad apples. It’s no different than the democrat response of “defund the police” given cases of police brutality in recent years. The only condition to accepting modernity is to never forsake tradition. Tradition is how Christ’s apostles and the patriarchs have been able to pass down the faith before the Bible was even put together.

Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Episkopos]

I would say that for maintaining an apostolic DOCTRINE the Orthodox are the closest, followed by the Catholics. Far behind these two sects comes the Protestant sects...having thrown out the baby with the bathwater, as stated.

As for PRACTICE..it depends on the individual. You find righteous people in all. Probably more saints on the orthodox side. Protestantism encourages Phariseeism more than the other two.

I think the best way to avoid deep error is to seek the Lord and be guided by Him into less formal gatherings that encourage faith and faithfulness. Once a person is able to seek the Lord on his/her own, I think it's best to leave the religious system behind and join with disciples who are outside the camp of religious affiliations. Of course, results will vary. ;)

 

[Episkopos]

Well we know this and a lot of Orthodox are just pew seaters or rather standers, but that is not the point of what I said and instead of admitting you were wrong, you had to twist it. Not an honest reply.

"John said earlier, that the Orthodox liturgy is man made. It is scripture actually, from beginning to end, which l discovered during attendance of it."

Stop with the religious pride already. Get off the personal one-upmanship and stick to the subject.

Liturgies are man -made. You are very off as you can't show any meeting from the bible that shows an order of service APART from having more than one prophet speak by the SPIRIT.
No system follows the bible. They use it...of course. But they can't obey it...that would take God's actual presence.

By definition a liturgy is something that is invented as a "service" to God and men...supposedly.
Any church order that is imposed on others takes people's eyes from God onto the service. Backwards. Even if a certain order DOES BRING a visitation from God, there is nothing to show that by doing that again...by focusing on WHAT to do, that God will visit again.

Best to do all from the heart by faith regardless of a liturgy. Revivals have begun based on simple and fervent prayers....or just reading a certain passage and actually believing it.

Who is in charge of a liturgy? Honest answers only.

 

[Hepzibah]

The Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Orthodox Church

Holy Cross Orthodox Press is happy to offer the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints Basil the Great, which is normally celebrated ten times during the year: on January 1, the feast of...

www.goarch.org

 

[Episkopos]

The Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Orthodox Church

Holy Cross Orthodox Press is happy to offer the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints Basil the Great, which is normally celebrated ten times during the year: on January 1, the feast of...

www.goarch.org

The divine liturgy of St. Basil? Whose liturgy? The divine St. Basil?

 

[Hepzibah]

Unlike the Catholic or Protestant service, the priest has his back to the people during the liturgy apart from his homily.

Not saying this is perfect but far superior to other churches. I like the Quaker service.

 

[Hepzibah]

The divine liturgy of St. Basil? Whose liturgy? The divine St. Basil?

John are you awake yet? It says divine liturgy. Basil was a saint yes. Wanting a bit of revenge eh.

 

[Episkopos]

John are you awake yet? It says divine liturgy. Basil was a saint yes. Wanting a bit of revenge eh.

You are missing the point. Man-made things comes with labels that claim great things, but lead people astray. If a building says" church" on it, does that make it a church? If you believe that then you can also believe in divine liturgies or apostles' creeds.

Using slogans or labels to attract people to things is all very human. There is an innocent way of doing this...but to mislabel things to try equating it to the level of what is eternal, true and holy?? But it may take a little wisdom to not take these things seriously. Who believes that coca-cola is "the real thing"? When you live on a superficial level, it might appear that way. When a person lives on a superficial religious level, the church building becomes a sacred place. And pride will defend that.

 

[Hepzibah]

You are missing the point. Man-made things comes with labels that claim great things, but lead people astray. If a building says" church" on it, does that make it a church? If you believe that then you can also believe in divine liturgies or apostles' creeds.

Using slogans or labels to attract people to things is all very human. There is an innocent way of doing this...but to mislabel things to try equating it to the level of what is eternal, true and holy?? But it may take a little wisdom to not take these things seriously. Who believes that coca-cola is "the real thing"? When you live on a superficial level, it might appear that way. When a person lives on a superficial religious level, the church building becomes a sacred place. And pride will defend that.

John you are talking rubbish. No offence but they use the same liturgy that they have always used since very early days and nearly all of it is scripture. Many have converted to them because of this.

Now whether they are genuine believers to be found amongst them today is beyond the point. There is nothing wrong with their service.

 

[Episkopos]

John you are talking rubbish. No offence but they use the same liturgy that they have always used since very early days and nearly all of it is scripture. Many have converted to them because of this.

Now whether they are genuine believers to be found amongst them today is beyond the point. There is nothing wrong with their service.

I have to ask...beyond the fact that they read bible verses...what makes the service "divine"???

 

[Hepzibah]

No idea. I don't have anything to do with them. They are nearer to true Christianity though. Why don't you pull Protestantism to bits instead? It's more appropriate here.

 

[Episkopos]

I have to ask...beyond the fact that they read bible verses...what makes the service "divine"???

Is there a holy tradition passed down from the apostles that instructs us to kiss icons, wear vestments, light candles, burn incense...etc??

The OT was based on a representation of a higher order based on a temporal temple. But in the NT we are to experience the actual presence of God where He is...and NOT do the representative illustrative rites as was common in Judaism. The Orthodox practice borrows heavily from Judaism and a more holiness temple approach....visuals, with sensual experiences (sights, smells, sounds)...meant to lure people into a "mystery" like we see among the Catholics.

Is that the level of the mystery we are to know as being divine? Or is all this based on attracting the senses...like any religion would?

Is the mystery of Christ based on a representative sensual experience? Or is it something deeper, spiritual and real? Does one lead to the other?

 

[Hepzibah]

I am only interested in the spirituality that was taught in the very early times of the church ie entire sanctification. Bad practices came in early.

Sorry you are not going to catch me out and only show your heart in trying to do so.

 

[Deus vult]

Complete and utter nonsense.

How long has Christianity been around and when was the Bible canonized?

 

[Hepzibah]

I have to ask...beyond the fact that they read bible verses...what makes the service "divine"???

Just remembered why it is called divine.

The whole service is to bring participants to repentance, and to prepare them for the acceptance of the Holy Spirit to baptize them.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Eastern Orthodox here...

How come we never hear from the Western Orthodox?

 

[marks]

How come we never hear from the Western Orthodox? View attachment 48056

Western Orthodox here!

Much love!