You ever consider this?

[Willie T]

who said that? just as the OT was much of the NT to come. much is still yet to come.

PICJAG.

Sorry. I honestly thought I have seen dozens of posts from members here swearing that we, here and now, are breathing some of the last air that will be breathed on this Earth.

 

[aspen]

In the very first verse of Revelation, John provides us with an important interpretive key: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must shortly take place; and He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John" (Rev. 1:1). The use of the term signify tells us that the prophecy is not simply to be taken as "history written in advance." Instead, it is a book of signs: symbolic representations of the coming events. The symbols are not to be understood in a literal manner. We can see this by John's use of the term in his Gospel (see John 12:33; 18:32; 21:19). In each case, it is used of Christ signifying a future event by a, more or less, symbolic indication, rather than by a clear and literal description. And this is generally the form of the prophecies in the Revelation. This does not mean the symbols are unintelligible; the interpretation is not up for grabs. On the other hand, I am not saying that the symbols are in some kind of code, so that all we need is a dictionary or grammar of symbolism to "translate" the symbols into English. Prophecy is poetry, not naive or static allegory. The only way to understand its symbolism is to become familiar with the Bible. The Biblical standard for interpretation is the Bible itself.

Yeah, I agree. It is an important point - I like what you said about prophecy not fitting into the categories of literal history or allegory. I agree that knowing the Bible is very important to gain understanding of the text. Sometimes I think people are too quick to give up on understanding Revelation, others reduce the meaning down to nothing with their literalism.

 

[brakelite]

I have no problems with God having some sort of chain that will hold the devil. But the passage also talks about him being kept on the abyss, which cannot be the earth itself, since the locust things come out of it to torment those who live on the earth.

Question, if the millennium is a time when earth is devoid of human life, where is this kingdom age happening?

Much love!

Before creation, the Septuagint described the earth as the abyss. Empty...void. Before the earth is made new, I can see from various texts in Jeremiah and Isaiah that after the tribulation and last plagues, the earth will be so broken as to be uninhabitable. All the wicked are dead. All the redeemed are in heaven...and that is where your "kingdom age" (a term I haven't seen in scripture BTW) will take place...while the earth is taking its Sabbath 1000 year rest after 6000 years of working. As for the locusts, surely you don't think there are literal locusts; Rev.9:7-10?? And if not literal locusts, why a literal abyss? These appear to me to be a picture of a certain class of men...and the pit they come out of isn't under the earth...unless of course you are a believer in conspiracies and flat earth and hole in earth type yarns. I don't think you are...I see you as being far more sensible than that yes? The language in that section of scripture is particularly figurative, and I suggest that the only way we are ever going to fully understand its full meaning is after the event.
But the 1000 year empty earth, broken, void of all life except for demons, totally polluted as a result of nuclear fallout, collapsed power grids and systems etc, catastrophic industrial breakdown with the associated chemical leaks etc...we could go on forever with the potential disasters that will result from the plagues...not to mention the dead bodies covering the planet and the resultant disease...I am gobsmacked quite frankly that anyone believes people will be living on the planet afterwards. The new heaven and the new earth does not take place until the end of the 1000 years. Now if Jesus comes and starts issuing orders for clean-up details with the few folk remaining, you better believe I don't want to be one of them. And there is nothing I have seen anywhere in scripture that suggests God Himself will give a temporary clean-up and work miracles to make the place habitable. Such a scenario of some wonderful "kingdom age" with people happily serving under Jesus from Jerusalem just doesn't fit with what I read of scripture.

 

[marks]

As for the locusts, surely you don't think there are literal locusts; Rev.9:7-10?? And if not literal locusts, why a literal abyss?

Hi brakelite,

Why would we not think that this is describing something we could all come to agreement about what it means? Instead of making the assumption that it surely can't be describing a real thing, real monsters of some sort, called locusts, but described much differently? If that's not what it means, then people will never agree on a "symbolic" meaning, that is, unless it's shown from the Bible.

For me, when I read Scripture, I 'suspend disbelief'.

Much love!

 

[brakelite]

Why would we not think that this is describing something we could all come to agreement about what it means?

One day I am sure some, maybe all, will come to agreement on what it means. But I tend to think that it will be in hindsight...
KJV Mark 13
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Instead of making the assumption that it surely can't be describing a real thing, real monsters of some sort, called locusts, but described much differently? If that's not what it means, then people will never agree on a "symbolic" meaning , that is unless it is shown from the Bible.

Christians cannot agree today on symbolic meanings of some of the most basic and glaringly obvious prophecies (I could offer several examples) ... You are showing a lot of faith in your fellow man to think that we will agree on the more obscure such as the locusts with hair like women, crowns of gold and faces of men.

 

[marks]

One day I am sure some, maybe all, will come to agreement on what it means. But I tend to think that it will be in hindsight...
KJV Mark 13
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.


Christians cannot agree today on symbolic meanings of some of the most basic and glaringly obvious prophecies (I could offer several examples) ... You are showing a lot of faith in your fellow man to think that we will agree on the more obscure such as the locusts with hair like women, crowns of gold and faces of men.

It's enough if we say that there will be something like this.

Otherwise, they mean this to me, and that to you, and something else to someone else. And if I can convince you of my view you will be convinced by a man that something in the Bible doesn't mean what it says. So I propose we let it mean what it says.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

Otherwise, they mean this to me, and that to you, and something else to someone else. And if I can convince you of my view you will be convinced by a man that something in the Bible doesn't mean what it says. So I propose we let it mean what it says.

But isn't that the whole issue? I have to amen to what @brakelite wrote.

WHO decides 'who' has it right?

If it was as easy as you make it sound here....we wouldn't have so many different church and denominations!!

It is NOT that easy.
There have been wars, fights, arguments , divisions. Because someone read it this way, and someone reads it that way.

Now maybe my faith in God is too simple... Because I believe that IF He wasn't us to all believe the same...then He would have made it VERY clear.
But he gave us what we have via those who translated what we have into English and every other language.

God did not write via a robotic pen. He used men.
There are levels to understanding the word of God. There's the plain and literal surface meaning, there's the symbolic, figurative, or representative meaning... there is the spiritual or mystical meaning.... and these meanings are on an ascending scale in that order.
The highest of all meanings is the spiritual meaning, for that's where we meet and touch and experience the reality of God who is Spirit. The apostle John referred to these three levels of truth in these significant words:-
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake...I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one...I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning" I Jn. 2:13.
It is the same word, but on different levels to each realm.
The word of God will meet you at a different place , depending upon where you are in the progression of your spiritual development from babes to young men ....to fathers.

He is God...that is why He gave us a spiritual book which is only understood spiritually. Just like Jesus did with the parables. He spoke them...most were confused. And some knew that it wasn't just a story about the words spoken, so they said " Tell us what this means" They knew that the story of a farmer who was sowing seed was not really what Jesus was saying...but there was a message behind the words.

So to just say " The bible means just what it says" is not at all what God has in mind. Although, we know that "just what it says"...is indeed the first level of understanding...

So, 'for me' I cannot just trust a group of old men who had the job of translation it into English and the AKJV which I love....let alone trust other who wrote all the other 'translations'. I trust Father to show me what He is saying to me.

....H

 

[marks]

Oh, I'm not saying it may be easy, although I don't think that is the core issue.

I'm not saying that God does not speak to us personally in His Word, having it mean to us whatever it is He wants to. I know He speaks with me that way.

John referred to these three levels of truth in these significant words:-
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake...I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one...I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning" I Jn. 2:13.
It is the same word, but on different levels to each realm.
The word of God will meet you at a different place , depending upon where you are in the progression of your spiritual development from babes to young men ....to fathers.

This is an interesting example, let me tell you how I read it.

Little children, read this next part knowing your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Young men, read this next part as overcomers of the wicked one.
Fathers, read this next part in mind of your relationship with the Eternal God.

And he writes the same to each, and each to be understood individually.

Yes, I'm really glad you brought up this part!

For me to know what God is saying to me, well, I'm a father, and I know Him that is from the beginning.

1 John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I don't need to love the world, it passes away, but God remains forever. None of these things remain, But God, Who is from the beginning, remains forever. I can go on. And on, as you know!

To the little children, the proper understanding, I think, is by the little child, that is the one who can take these words and put it into their own life experience, as I did for myself.

The verses themself, 15-17, I think we can sort through them and come to a very clear and agreed upon understanding of what they mean, but there is a triple context to the single passage.

But at the same time, my main point is that words have meanings, and are meant to communicate. When we disregard the meaning of words to substitute with other words, then we can lose the meaning God wrote to reveal.

One other thing to add . . . I don't know that I think the same as the "spiritual meaning when we meet and touch God", I've known that to be in seeing how He wrote the plain text to me, and the delivered it to me so meaningfully so many times. Late nights in my room in desparate need, to find my life and my difficulties all anticipated, all met, as I just read my Bible.

But at the end of the day, I'll not be in any disagreement whatsoever that God is personal to each of us, and our relationship with His is ours and not any others!

Much love!!