setst777 said: "Divine Determinism” is fatalistic.
According to you, there is no “our actions” that God did not already create.
Divine determinism is the belief that God so arranges the affairs of the universe that everything and anything that ever happens is efficaciously orchestrated by God so that it must have happened exactly as it did.
That is “fatalism.”
setst777 said: Your own quotes reveal that you believe in “Divine Determinism.”
Your own quotes show that you are fatalistic, which is what “Divine Determinism” is – fatalistic.
setst777 said: The Scriptures do not paint “predestination” with such a broad stroke. In contrast to your view of “predestination,” the Bible defines predestination as pertaining to God’s plan to conform the faithful to the Image of Christ, sharing with Christ in salvation (Romans 8:28-29; Ephesians 1:4-5).
According to the Scriptures, the Spirit of God leads us to life as the believer is diligent to live and walk by the Spirit, which is the believer is obligated to do to have life (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9).
That is your definition, but show me where predestination is defined that way in the Bible. I gave you “2 Peter 1:8-11” as my evidence, and you ignored it.
Predestination, according to the Scriptures simply means that God has a special plan for those who believe (which are the ones loving God: Romans 8:28). That "special plan" is to conform believers to the image of Christ, and share with Christ in salvation.
setst777 said: True, just like you, they misunderstood God’s justice.
Mercy: Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
Justice: Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?
Punishment: Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction
That is your belief, which not taught in Scripture. God "elects/chooses," which means God selects.
setst777 said: We learn from God, the Prophets, and the Apostolic Writers, that how God chooses to discipline or bless, or use for special purposes, is all dependent on how such persons respond in His hands.
That is not accurate. God is admonishing both the nation, and the individuals in the nation in “Jeremiah 18:1-12.” The “nation” consists of the people in the nation, just as Israel consists of the people in Israel in “Romans 9:1-33.”
Jeremiah 18:11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”
Why argue about whether God forms a nation or an individual, since you believe that both are God's work of creating.
setst777 said: Regarding salvation, God forms for eternal life those who believe in him and continue to believe (John 3:16-18).
God saves those who believe. The “free gift” is God’s saving grace to those who believe, which is taught in the very same chapter you quoted from.
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have {{{our access}}} by faith into {{{this grace}}} in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I ask you honestly, could Paul have made in any more plane to understand?
setst777 said: In contrast to the Jewish reaction, you think that God actually created us to be the way we are before we were born. Amazingly, you think that is perfectly fine that God would actually create people to do evil acts, including the choices that God created in them, and then send them to hell for what God already created them for.
That is your human reasoning. God created us in His image, able to choose good from evil (Romans 2:13-16)
setst777 said: Paul does not say he created people to suffer his wrath beforehand; rather, God prepared as vessels of destruction those who deserved his wrath resisting God, even though he was patient with them.
The Greek word for “prepared” never means “created.”
Rather, God forms/prepares for ignoble purpose, or destruction, those (the clay) who, of their own doing, act contrary to God’s patience. These are the objects of God’s wrath, not that God created them to try God's patience.
Romans 9:21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath {{{prepared}}} for destruction
“In Romans 9:22,” the word for “prepared” is “2675 katartízō,” which means, “having prepared/fitted/adjusted. God prepares (not created) for destruction those who, in spite of God’s patience, resisted God’s patience, doing evil.
Divine determinism is not fatalistic because fatalism suggests that the outcome is not tied to our actions
According to you, there is no “our actions” that God did not already create.
Divine determinism is the belief that God so arranges the affairs of the universe that everything and anything that ever happens is efficaciously orchestrated by God so that it must have happened exactly as it did.
That is “fatalism.”
setst777 said: Your own quotes reveal that you believe in “Divine Determinism.”
Tell me something new.
Your own quotes show that you are fatalistic, which is what “Divine Determinism” is – fatalistic.
setst777 said: The Scriptures do not paint “predestination” with such a broad stroke. In contrast to your view of “predestination,” the Bible defines predestination as pertaining to God’s plan to conform the faithful to the Image of Christ, sharing with Christ in salvation (Romans 8:28-29; Ephesians 1:4-5).
What does this "conforming" look like? In your view, God isn't conforming anything. Human beings do that all by themselves.
According to the Scriptures, the Spirit of God leads us to life as the believer is diligent to live and walk by the Spirit, which is the believer is obligated to do to have life (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9).
On the contrary, predestination is fixing the course of events and outcomes according to God's eternal decree.
That is your definition, but show me where predestination is defined that way in the Bible. I gave you “2 Peter 1:8-11” as my evidence, and you ignored it.
Predestination, according to the Scriptures simply means that God has a special plan for those who believe (which are the ones loving God: Romans 8:28). That "special plan" is to conform believers to the image of Christ, and share with Christ in salvation.
setst777 said: True, just like you, they misunderstood God’s justice.
No, Paul isn't talking about mercy, justice or punishment in that chapter.
Mercy: Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
Justice: Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?
Punishment: Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction
On the contrary, God is not a selector, he is a creator. God makes a priori decisions to harden or bless.
That is your belief, which not taught in Scripture. God "elects/chooses," which means God selects.
setst777 said: We learn from God, the Prophets, and the Apostolic Writers, that how God chooses to discipline or bless, or use for special purposes, is all dependent on how such persons respond in His hands.
Jeremiah was not talking about individuals, he was talking about nations.
That is not accurate. God is admonishing both the nation, and the individuals in the nation in “Jeremiah 18:1-12.” The “nation” consists of the people in the nation, just as Israel consists of the people in Israel in “Romans 9:1-33.”
Jeremiah 18:11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”
Why argue about whether God forms a nation or an individual, since you believe that both are God's work of creating.
setst777 said: Regarding salvation, God forms for eternal life those who believe in him and continue to believe (John 3:16-18).
Agreed, but salvation is not a response to belief. God saves those that believe, and remain, yes, but belief and endurance are both gifts of God.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
God saves those who believe. The “free gift” is God’s saving grace to those who believe, which is taught in the very same chapter you quoted from.
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have {{{our access}}} by faith into {{{this grace}}} in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I ask you honestly, could Paul have made in any more plane to understand?
setst777 said: In contrast to the Jewish reaction, you think that God actually created us to be the way we are before we were born. Amazingly, you think that is perfectly fine that God would actually create people to do evil acts, including the choices that God created in them, and then send them to hell for what God already created them for.
Think about this. If God didn't create such people, they wouldn't exist. The contradistinction of creation is non-existence.
That is your human reasoning. God created us in His image, able to choose good from evil (Romans 2:13-16)
setst777 said: Paul does not say he created people to suffer his wrath beforehand; rather, God prepared as vessels of destruction those who deserved his wrath resisting God, even though he was patient with them.
Preparation is an act of creation.
The Greek word for “prepared” never means “created.”
Paul argues that just as a potter gives form to a pot according to its intended function, God gives a person form according his intended function of that individual.
Rather, God forms/prepares for ignoble purpose, or destruction, those (the clay) who, of their own doing, act contrary to God’s patience. These are the objects of God’s wrath, not that God created them to try God's patience.
Romans 9:21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath {{{prepared}}} for destruction
“In Romans 9:22,” the word for “prepared” is “2675 katartízō,” which means, “having prepared/fitted/adjusted. God prepares (not created) for destruction those who, in spite of God’s patience, resisted God’s patience, doing evil.