setst777 said: Sure, I was the one who planned it, created the bullet, and pulled the trigger, and the bullet is the immediate cause, but because I am the one who planned and created the bullet for that purpose, and I sent the bullet on its way to do what I predestined it would do; yet, in your definition, I am not culpable, the bullet is.
No, in my view, you pulled the trigger and God created you pulling the trigger. Both are true.
In the analogy, I am playing the part of God who created the bullet (representing a human), and designed the bullet, and made all things work, so that the bullet would hit the neighbor and kill him.
So, would you say that I, as God in the analogy, would be culpable or the bullet for killing the neighbor?
setst777 said: But according to your logic, the bullet is to blame, since the bullet is the immediate cause. That is silly logic that any judge would throw out.
No, the logic of creation is different than the logic of existence. If I tip over a glass of milk, the milk pours out and it's my fault. God is the creator of all that exists so when I tip over a glass of milk, God is creating me tipping over a glass of milk. Both are true at the same time because God is a transcendent creator.
I disagree because your example is missing the transcendent nature of God.
It is not up to you to define or make the rules of God's transcendent nature, or to make up such terms to define God as you see fit.
Okay, at this point, I leave you to your imaginations, because none of what you are saying has anything to do with what the Bible teaches about God’s glorious nature. You are merely reading your own assumptions in between the text, re-interpreting the text in your own image, and forcing it to teach what you believe. I will only trust what God states in His Word because my eternal life depends on it. Your imagination will not save you.
1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “
Do not go beyond what is written.”
God already
revealed and
made known the revelation of the Gospel in its fullness. No one can add more to what God already fully revealed and made know in writing.
Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with
my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the
mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but
now revealed and
made known through the
prophetic writings by the
command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to
the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant
by the commission God gave me to
present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that
has been kept hidden for ages and generations,
but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.
I am not here to debate anyone's philosophies on what they presume the Text means in their own imagination. You are fine with going beyond what the Eternal God commanded to be put into writing as the fully revealed Gospel Revelation, but I am not fine with that at all, and strongly condemn what you proclaim, which is a sacrilege against God and His holy nature as the Bible teaches us, and as Lord Jesus reveals to us and explained to us. Your philosophy is a desecration of His Word.
CadyandZoe said: When the Bible speaks about God's love, it refers to what he does, not how he feels. When it says that God loved Jacob, it means that God worked to Jacob's benefit. When it says that God hated Esau, it means that God worked everything against Esau. And Paul says, God decided to work everything to Jacob's benefit before Jacob was born and he decided to work against Esau before he was born.
SETST RE: That is really blasphemous.
- God is the origin of Love, God is Love,
- The Spirit of God radiates the Love of God in our hearts,
- The commandments of God are founded in Love,
- God sending His Son to die for us reveals God’s love,
- Lord Jesus demonstrated God’s love while on earth.
You don’t know the God of the Bible.
1 John 4:8 (WEB) He who doesn't
love doesn't know
God, for
God is love.
Here again are your own statements that degrade the Scriptures, and that makes God out to be a monster, turning God's glory into darkness (
bolding and underlining are mine).
CadyandZoe said: If sin came into being then it came into being because God created it.
CadyandZoe said: Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?
CadyandZoe said: The point is that God took responsibility for what Satan did.
CadyandZoe said: No, God creates people repenting.
CadyandZoe said: Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained.
CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.
CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."
CadyandZoe said: God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.
CadyandZoe said:
Remember what our Apostle Paul wrote, "And we know that God
causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to
His purpose." Therefore, in order for God to work my life to the good, he has to cause everything in my life to work for the good. He has to cause everyone around me to work toward the good. The only way that Paul's word is true is if God works "ALL THINGS" to the good. Everything that happens along the way, whether good or bad, is being orchestrated "TO THE GOOD."
CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God
caused Joseph to have a dream, God
caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . .
CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God
caused Joseph to have a dream, God
caused his brothers to get jealous, God
caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.
God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.
CadyandZoe said: Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning earlier when I said that "God creates them repenting." In my view, "
creation" and "
causation" are two different things, especially as it pertains to God's creative action.
CadyandZoe said: Moreover, God
doesn't cause or "
fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."
CadyandZoe said: Your objection isn't valid for two reasons. First, your objection fails to understand a fundamental principle of our existence.
If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3). Mankind doesn't have autonomous free will. And if God didn't create everything that exists,
including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God.