TULIP an open discussion

[marks]

Yes, God is responsible for creating people who do bad things.

Wait just a minute!!

You've said something very different from this. You've said that God creates people having determined that they will in fact do bad things, because that's what God did, He made them to do bad things, with the intent that they would do those bad things, and they have no opportunity to do otherwise, having been made that way.

Isn't that what you think?

And you go on to say that having done so, God is not actually responsible for what they do. All fiction aside.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is your doctrine, and none of this is taught in the Scriptures; therefore, this is all the imagination of mankind. God is holy and righteous because he is not responsible for all the sins of mankind; rather, God holds us accountable for the sins of mankind, and judges accordingly.

Okay. I believe this also.

You say this is all a narrative that God, as the Script-writer, created to happen; but that makes God responsible for our sins and all the evil that takes place. Thankfully that is not the God of the Bible. God is not playing some kind of sick game.

Does God create everything or not? John says he does.

The Scriptures do not teach that God intended the brother's evil choices; rather, what the brothers meant (intended) for evil, God meant (intended) for good.

I see your resistance to the facts, but the fact remains.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

The antecedent of the pronoun "it" in the sentence above is "evil against me."

Boys intent: "evil against me"
God's intent: "evil against me" that resulted in good.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wait just a minute!!

You've said something very different from this. You've said that God creates people having determined that they will in fact do bad things, because that's what God did, He made them to do bad things, with the intent that they would do those bad things, and they have no opportunity to do otherwise, having been made that way.

Isn't that what you think?

And you go on to say that having done so, God is not actually responsible for what they do. All fiction aside.

Much love!

Your summary does not represent what I believe or intend to say. If that is what you heard me say, then I miscommunicated. Bear in mind how Paul spoke about it.

As Paul noted, God had already decided how to treat Jacob and Esau before they were born or had done anything good or bad. Given this reality, Paul rhetorically asks,

Romans 9:14-16

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.​

According to the Bible, God had already decided the destinies of Jacob and Esau before they were born, irrespective of their actions. At first glance, this may seem unfair, but Paul explains why it isn't. Essentially, all of us deserve God's wrath, and the difference between those who receive wrath and those who receive mercy isn't a matter of justice, but of compassion. Compassion can never be unjust.

Paul points out in the text that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to proclaim God's name throughout the whole Earth. This observation led him to ask a rhetorical question, "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” Pharaoh was unable to resist God's will as God had hardened his heart and caused him to not let his people go. Furthermore, God caused Pharaoh's stubbornness to demonstrate his great power over Egypt's so-called gods.

In the discussion, Paul answered his own question by emphasizing God's transcendental nature as the creator of everything that exists. He explained that just as a potter has the right to act towards a pot in any way he desires, God also has the right to behave towards his creations in any way he wants. Moreover, God's behavior toward an individual is based on his purpose for that individual.

Furthermore, during the conversation, Paul never refutes the idea that we are unable to resist his will. His argument assumes that we cannot resist the will of God; rather, as God's creatures, we have no right to question God's design decision, just as a pot will not say, "why did you make me this way?"

Instead of the Potter analogy, I have been using the author/novel analogy, but the point is still the same. God is not unjust to decide our destiny before we are born, and he has the right to behave toward me in whatever fashion suits my designated purpose.

Hopefully, that clears things up.

 

[setst777]

The issue isn't responsibility. It's a matter of culpability. Yes, God is responsible for creating people who do bad things. But he is not culpable for what they do since God is the creator.

For instance, Jesus tells a parable about two sons; one obeys his father, and the other disobeys his son. Jesus is responsible for telling the story. But Jesus is not responsible for disobeying his father.

Let us say, for example, that I plan to kill my neighbor with a gun, and carefully create a bullet for the gun to do the job, and then intentionally point my gun at my neighbor to shoot him and pull the trigger. Would you say that I am I not responsible for what the bullet does after it leaves the barrel of my gun?

Sure, I was the one who planned it, created the bullet, and pulled the trigger, and the bullet is the immediate cause, but because I am the one who planned and created the bullet for that purpose, and I sent the bullet on its way to do what I predestined it would do; yet, in your definition, I am not culpable, the bullet is.

I say that is just total blindness on your part. By planning the killing, making the bullet for that decreed purpose, and pointing the gun, and pulling the trigger, I am 100% responsible and culpable for the damage the bullet caused. Cause and effect.

But according to your logic, the bullet is to blame, since the bullet is the immediate cause. That is silly logic that any judge would throw out.

In the above scenario, if a judge questions, "Are you responsible for killing your neighbor?"

What if I said the following? …

"Your honor, I am responsible for planning the killing of my neighbor. Yes, I planned to kill him, I created the bullet to kill him, and I pointed the gun at my neighbor and pulled the trigger, so yes, I was the responsible; however, the bullet was responsible for flying 40 feet toward my neighbor, hitting him, and killing my neighbor; so only the bullet is the culpable. Since I am just the Source, and the Bullet is the immediate cause, only the bullet is responsible for killing my neighbor.

Yes, I planned the whole event, and actively made it happen, but the bullet, of its own volition, flew out of the barrel toward my neighbor traveling 40 feet, and then, the bullet itself hit my neighbor in the chest, which killed my neighbor. So the bullet is culpable for causing my neighbor to die. Therefore, if you want to place blame for my neighbor's death, you need look no further than the bullet, which killed him."

That kind of silly logic would never hold up in any court of law; nor would any reasonable unbiased person agree with such a silly philosophy. But that is your logic. And the only reason you hold to such a flawed philosophy is because of programming and pride in my view.

Here again are your own statements, which show that my scenario about the shooting of my neighbor realistically follows from what you actually stated.

CadyandZoe said: If sin came into being then it came into being because God created it.

CadyandZoe said: Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?

CadyandZoe said: The point is that God took responsibility for what Satan did.

CadyandZoe said: No, God creates people repenting.

CadyandZoe said: Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said:
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said:
Remember what our Apostle Paul wrote, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Therefore, in order for God to work my life to the good, he has to cause everything in my life to work for the good. He has to cause everyone around me to work toward the good. The only way that Paul's word is true is if God works "ALL THINGS" to the good. Everything that happens along the way, whether good or bad, is being orchestrated "TO THE GOOD."

CadyandZoe said:
In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . .

CadyandZoe said: Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning earlier when I said that "God creates them repenting." In my view, "creation" and "causation" are two different things, especially as it pertains to God's creative action.

CadyandZoe said:
Moreover, God doesn't cause or "fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."

CadyandZoe said:
Your objection isn't valid for two reasons. First, your objection fails to understand a fundamental principle of our existence. If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3). Mankind doesn't have autonomous free will. And if God didn't create everything that exists, including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God.

 

[setst777]

Does God create everything or not? John says he does.

God created [past tense] all things. And God created everything very good (Genesis 1:31).

God created all living things to produce after their own kind (Genesis 1:24).

All things that were (past tense) created are upheld/sustained (present and continuous) by God (Psalms 33:9) - from the Father by His Logos (Hebrews 1:2-3).

I see your resistance to the facts, but the fact remains.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

The antecedent of the pronoun "it" in the sentence above is "evil against me."

Boys intent: "evil against me"
God's intent: "evil against me" that resulted in good.

The Scriptures do not teach that God intended the brother's evil choices; rather, what the brothers meant (intended) for evil, God meant (intended) for good.

 

[marks]

If that is what you heard me say, then I miscommunicated.

It seems to me you've been pretty clear.

Your assertion, as I understand it, is that God writes our stories the way an human author writes the stories in his book. That God predetermines who will be good and who will be evil, who will obey and who will disobey, who will repent, and who will be profligate.

You assert that because the man makes the choice to be evil that the man bears the responsibility for being evil, though he was designed with the specific intent by God that he would choose that evil.

Do I have this wrong?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sure, I was the one who planned it, created the bullet, and pulled the trigger, and the bullet is the immediate cause, but because I am the one who planned and created the bullet for that purpose, and I sent the bullet on its way to do what I predestined it would do; yet, in your definition, I am not culpable, the bullet is.

Good analogy!

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

It seems to me you've been pretty clear.

Your assertion, as I understand it, is that God writes our stories the way an human author writes the stories in his book. That God predetermines who will be good and who will be evil, who will obey and who will disobey, who will repent, and who will be profligate.

You assert that because the man makes the choice to be evil that the man bears the responsibility for being evil, though he was designed with the specific intent by God that he would choose that evil.

Do I have this wrong?

Much love!

Good summary.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God created [past tense] all things.

God's creative work is not limited to the past. God never stops creating. Whenever a hummingbird sips from my feeder, it is God creating a hummingbird sipping from my feeder. Whenever a dolphin flips his flipper, God is creating a dolphin flipping his flipper.

The Scriptures do not teach that God intended the brother's evil choices; rather, what the brothers meant (intended) for evil, God meant (intended) for good.

The fact that God intended good from the boy's evil actions means that God created the boy's actions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Let us say, for example, that I plan to kill my neighbor with a gun, and carefully create a bullet for the gun to do the job, and then intentionally point my gun at my neighbor to shoot him and pull the trigger. Would you say that I am I not responsible for what the bullet does after it leaves the barrel of my gun?

You are responsible.

Sure, I was the one who planned it, created the bullet, and pulled the trigger, and the bullet is the immediate cause, but because I am the one who planned and created the bullet for that purpose, and I sent the bullet on its way to do what I predestined it would do; yet, in your definition, I am not culpable, the bullet is.

No, in my view, you pulled the trigger and God created you pulling the trigger. Both are true.

I say that is just total blindness on your part.

I say you don't get it yet.

Cause and effect.

In the book of Exodus, we see God parting the Red Sea because, from our perspective, it stopped flowing. What we don't understand is that God is not only responsible for parting the Red Sea but also for its normal flow. From God's transcendental level, what we consider the laws of physics and chemistry is just how he usually does things.

Consider Isaiah 8:6-7

“Inasmuch as these people have rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah And rejoice in Rezin and the son of Remaliah; Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory;​

Commentary:
The king of Syria was Rezin and the son of Remaliah, Pekah, was king of Israel. The next verses will reveal that the rejoicing of the people of Judah over the defeat of their enemies is premature. The powerful force they trusted to solve their problem will soon turn its strength against on them.

According to verse 6 "these people have rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah." In this context, the phrase "waters of Shiloh" is metonymy for God's provision. Israel forgot that God is ultimately responsible for the waters of Shiloah, which everyone typically takes for granted and naturally assumes comes from a natural watershed. Both are true at the same time.

But according to your logic, the bullet is to blame, since the bullet is the immediate cause. That is silly logic that any judge would throw out.

No, the logic of creation is different than the logic of existence. If I tip over a glass of milk, the milk pours out and it's my fault. God is the creator of all that exists so when I tip over a glass of milk, God is creating me tipping over a glass of milk. Both are true at the same time because God is a transcendent creator.

Here again are your own statements, which show that my scenario about the shooting of my neighbor realistically follows from what you actually stated.

I disagree because your example is missing the transcendent nature of God.

 

[setst777]

God's creative work is not limited to the past. God never stops creating. Whenever a hummingbird sips from my feeder, it is God creating a hummingbird sipping from my feeder. Whenever a dolphin flips his flipper, God is creating a dolphin flipping his flipper.

Can you show the Scriptures that teach that God is still creating, including all movements and choices creatures make?

The fact that God intended good from the boy's evil actions means that God created the boy's actions.

No, it does not mean that unless God's Word teaches it.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Sure, I was the one who planned it, created the bullet, and pulled the trigger, and the bullet is the immediate cause, but because I am the one who planned and created the bullet for that purpose, and I sent the bullet on its way to do what I predestined it would do; yet, in your definition, I am not culpable, the bullet is.

No, in my view, you pulled the trigger and God created you pulling the trigger. Both are true.

In the analogy, I am playing the part of God who created the bullet (representing a human), and designed the bullet, and made all things work, so that the bullet would hit the neighbor and kill him.

So, would you say that I, as God in the analogy, would be culpable or the bullet for killing the neighbor?

setst777 said: But according to your logic, the bullet is to blame, since the bullet is the immediate cause. That is silly logic that any judge would throw out.

No, the logic of creation is different than the logic of existence. If I tip over a glass of milk, the milk pours out and it's my fault. God is the creator of all that exists so when I tip over a glass of milk, God is creating me tipping over a glass of milk. Both are true at the same time because God is a transcendent creator.

I disagree because your example is missing the transcendent nature of God.

It is not up to you to define or make the rules of God's transcendent nature, or to make up such terms to define God as you see fit.

Okay, at this point, I leave you to your imaginations, because none of what you are saying has anything to do with what the Bible teaches about God’s glorious nature. You are merely reading your own assumptions in between the text, re-interpreting the text in your own image, and forcing it to teach what you believe. I will only trust what God states in His Word because my eternal life depends on it. Your imagination will not save you.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

God already revealed and made known the revelation of the Gospel in its fullness. No one can add more to what God already fully revealed and made know in writing.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

I am not here to debate anyone's philosophies on what they presume the Text means in their own imagination. You are fine with going beyond what the Eternal God commanded to be put into writing as the fully revealed Gospel Revelation, but I am not fine with that at all, and strongly condemn what you proclaim, which is a sacrilege against God and His holy nature as the Bible teaches us, and as Lord Jesus reveals to us and explained to us. Your philosophy is a desecration of His Word.

CadyandZoe said: When the Bible speaks about God's love, it refers to what he does, not how he feels. When it says that God loved Jacob, it means that God worked to Jacob's benefit. When it says that God hated Esau, it means that God worked everything against Esau. And Paul says, God decided to work everything to Jacob's benefit before Jacob was born and he decided to work against Esau before he was born.

SETST RE: That is really blasphemous.

• God is the origin of Love, God is Love,
• The Spirit of God radiates the Love of God in our hearts,
• The commandments of God are founded in Love,
• God sending His Son to die for us reveals God’s love,
• Lord Jesus demonstrated God’s love while on earth.

You don’t know the God of the Bible.

1 John 4:8 (WEB) He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.

Here again are your own statements that degrade the Scriptures, and that makes God out to be a monster, turning God's glory into darkness (bolding and underlining are mine).

CadyandZoe said: If sin came into being then it came into being because God created it.

CadyandZoe said: Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?

CadyandZoe said: The point is that God took responsibility for what Satan did.

CadyandZoe said: No, God creates people repenting.

CadyandZoe said: Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said: God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said:
Remember what our Apostle Paul wrote, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Therefore, in order for God to work my life to the good, he has to cause everything in my life to work for the good. He has to cause everyone around me to work toward the good. The only way that Paul's word is true is if God works "ALL THINGS" to the good. Everything that happens along the way, whether good or bad, is being orchestrated "TO THE GOOD."

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . .

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning earlier when I said that "God creates them repenting." In my view, "creation" and "causation" are two different things, especially as it pertains to God's creative action.

CadyandZoe said: Moreover, God doesn't cause or "fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."

CadyandZoe said: Your objection isn't valid for two reasons. First, your objection fails to understand a fundamental principle of our existence. If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3). Mankind doesn't have autonomous free will. And if God didn't create everything that exists, including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In the analogy, I am playing the part of God who created the bullet (representing a human), and designed the bullet, and made all things work, so that the bullet would hit the neighbor and kill him.

So, would you say that I, as God in the analogy, would be culpable or the bullet for killing the neighbor?

No. God, as creator, can kill anyone he wants. Witness Uzzah.

It is not up to you to define or make the rules of God's transcendent nature, or to make up such terms to define God as you see fit.

Who said it was up to me? I didn't define the concept of transcendence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Can you show the Scriptures that teach that God is still creating, including all movements and choices creatures make?

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seems clear to me.

No, it does not mean that unless God's Word teaches it.

God's word teaches it.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
It is not up to you to define or make the rules of God's transcendent nature, or to make up such terms to define God as you see fit.

Who said it was up to me? I didn't define the concept of transcendence.

You adopted the philosophy as your own, so it is up to you. No one is forcing you.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seems clear to me.

God's word teaches it.

"John 1:3" is describing a past activity, not present. If it were present, then it would read:

"All things are coming into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing is coming into being that is coming into being."

Amazing how you can look right at Passages and only see what you want them to mean; rather then accepting what the Passages are plainly stating.

Creation is past tense, and all things that were [past tense] created, and what God created is sustained by God.

Genesis 1:31 (WEB) God saw all that he had {{{made}}} [past tense], and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Colossians 1:16-17 (WEB) 15 He is the Image of the invisible God [Genesis 1:26-27], the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by means of him all things {{{were}}} [past tense] created [past tense] in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things {{{have been}}} [past tense] created [past tense] through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things {{{are held together}}}. [present tense]

Creation is past tense, and all things that were [past tense] created, and what God created is being sustained by God.

Hebrews 1:3 (NWT) Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom {{{he made}}} [past tense] the systems of things 3 He is the reflection [Grk: beaming forth] of [from] God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he {{{{sustains}}} all things by the word of his power.

All living things that God created {{past tense}} were made by God to produce after their own kind. All living things continue to produce after their own kind, which is why the activity of living things to "produce" is present tense.

Genesis 1:24-25 (WEB) 24 God said, “Let the earth produce living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind;” and it was so. 25 God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.

Seems pretty clear to anyone with an unbiased mind. That is what God's Word teaches.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You adopted the philosophy as your own, so it is up to you. No one is forcing you.

The concept of transcendence is not a philosophy. It is a state of existence. The idea that God is transcendent over his creation is a well-established theological concept. Not only does Judaism affirm that God is transcendent, but so do the Catholics and many Protestant denominations.

"John 1:3" is describing a past activity, not present. If it were present, then it would read:

"All things are coming into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing is coming into being that is coming into being."

The verbs in that passage are in the aorist tense, not the past tense. Aorist tense, according to Grammarians, is a simple past tense verb, but the use is more nuanced than that.

Consider the following sentence.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

These verbs are also in the aorist tense, but they describe a future event. It's as if Paul is saying, "Whatever is true concerning those whom God will glorify (in the future), they were also justified, called, predestined, and foreknown. The term "glorified" is synonymous with "conformed to the image of his son."

Predestination is a past activity, which God works out in real time.

 

[marks]

Good summary.

Then by your view God not only wanted man to sin, He, in his desire, forced men to sin. Desire for evil things is sin, therefore, it seems to me you ascribe sin to God, and that I will never go along with.

Personally I don't feel there is any purpose in any further dialog between us.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then by your view God not only wanted man to sin, He, in his desire, forced men to sin. Desire for evil things is sin, therefore, it seems to me you ascribe sin to God, and that I will never go along with.

Personally I don't feel there is any purpose in any further dialog between us.

Much love!

Why do you say "forced"? There is no force in my view.

 

[marks]

Why do you say "forced"? There is no force in my view.

Pick whatever word works best for you.

Your assertion is that God made man so he would sin. Like me making a car that can only drive in a circle. Am I forcing the car to drive in a circle? No? I just made it that way, but it's doing what it wants? No. A rose by any other name . . .

Much love!

 

[setst777]

The concept of transcendence is not a philosophy. It is a state of existence. The idea that God is transcendent over his creation is a well-established theological concept. Not only does Judaism affirm that God is transcendent, but so do the Catholics and many Protestant denominations.

The concept of "Transcendence" is a philosophy.

The way you describe "transcendence" of God is a flawed and Biblically unsupported philosophical assumption; because, your definition of the word "Transcendence" is not found in Scripture when it explains who God is.

Here is your description of the transcendence of God:

CadyandZoe said: No, the logic of creation is different than the logic of existence. If I tip over a glass of milk, the milk pours out and it's my fault. God is the creator of all that exists so when I tip over a glass of milk, God is creating me tipping over a glass of milk. Both are true at the same time because God is a transcendent creator.

Therefore, you are giving a meaning to "Transcendence" that is all of your own making according to your own personal assumptions.

Here is how the word "transcendence" is used to describe the God of the Bible:

In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of the material universe, beyond all physical laws.

Transcendence (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As I said before, and say again:

setst777 said:
It is not up to you to define or make the rules of God's transcendent nature, or to make up such terms to define God as you see fit.

I am not on this Christian Board to discuss the wild assumptions and opinions of others.

The verbs in that passage are in the aorist tense, not the past tense. Aorist tense, according to Grammarians, is a simple past tense verb, but the use is more nuanced than that.

Both the imperfect and aorist tenses describe actions of the PAST TENSE. They differ in one very important aspect; in that,

• The imperfect tense conveys multiple times an event takes place in the past, while
• The AORIST tense always conveys one single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect).

Therefore, when God created the universe, this was a "One Time Action" that occurred in the past.

However, if you understand what you are reading, then you would know that "John 1:3" is referring to creation as a one time event that occurred in the past. You just have to know how to communicate.

See:

The Aorist Tense – Ancient Greek for Everyone

www.publiconsulting.com

Consider the following sentence.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

These verbs are also in the aorist tense, but they describe a future event. It's as if Paul is saying, "Whatever is true concerning those whom God will glorify (in the future), they were also justified, called, predestined, and foreknown. The term "glorified" is synonymous with "conformed to the image of his son."

Predestination is a past activity, which God works out in real time.

Romans 8:28-30 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.

These are all one-time past events by God upon those who love God.

"Glorified," within the context, means that, those "who love God," (Romans 8:28) are citizens of heaven, seated in heavenly places, from darkness to light, although presently living in corrupted flesh.

Ephesians 2:6 (WEB) 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Philippians 3:20 (WEB) 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

1 Peter 2:9 (WEB) 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.