Election, Reprobation, as taught in Church History.

[marks]

because just making things up doesn't make them be true.

This of course applies all the way around. There are various historical arguments that I do not find to be to be convincing when I compare to the Bible itself.

And to the historicity of various views, I think Christians have been inviting unbelievers to come to Jesus in all the centuries since Christ's resurrection. It seems to me that there is the general view that there is a general invitation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How can this Scripture be used to support election unto salvation? Lazarus, Mary, and Martha were all saved by grace through faith before this was stated. They had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary was more intent on hearing what Jesus had to say while Martha was more intent on serving Him.

Election cannot possibly be for salvation, since God commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that God desires the salvation of all human beings.

Clearly out of context, and misrepresented. One must wonder, Why? Why not just leave it out? And what else is out of context, misrepresented?

Much love!

 

[Iconoclast]

Clearly what is out of context is your comment.
He was giving 4 examples of how the word is used in scripture.
Notice:
1
2
3
4
In that post...take another look.

 

[marks]

Clearly what is out of context is your comment.
He was giving 4 examples of how the word is used in scripture.
Notice:
1
2
3
4
In that post...take another look.

(6.) That it is an election to salvation and not to outward privileges. To the Scriptures alone must we look for the truth upon this subject. Upon opening them we find that the words
Election and Elect are used in various senses.

1. They signify a choice to office whether by man or God. Luke 6:13. Christ's choice of the twelve Apostles. Acts 1:21-26. The selection of an Apostle in the place of Judas. Acts 9:15. Saul is called a chosen vessel. 1 Pet. 2:6-8. Christ is spoken of as the corner-stone, elect, precious that is laid in Zion.

2. The choice of Israel to their peculiar national privilege of being the chosen or separated people of God; as in Acts 13:17. "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers."

3. It is once used for a choice made of' salvation by an individual. Luke 10:42. "Mary hath chosen the good part which shall not be taken away from her."

4. In a large majority of cases it has reference to the choice to salvation, either in the purpose or act of choice by God.

Elect and election are used in various ways as demonstrated in #1. We need to go to the immediate context to see what is in view. These do not show election to salvation in the New Covenant.

#2, God chose Israel, yet not all of Isreal is saved. This does not demonstrate election unto salvation in the New Covenant.

#3, the one in dispute,

Luke 10:38-42 KJV
38) Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39) And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40) But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41) And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42) But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Where in this do you see "election to salvation"? Or that Mary was saved and Martha was not? Or that this has anything to do with anything other than what Martha said? That she wanted Mary to help? Wasn't Jesus telling her in essence that personal affectionate devotion to Him was better than household chores? That Martha would have been fine serving a simple snack?

#4, where is the passage that states God has chosen individuals to be saved? That God doesn't want all to come to repentance? That God isn't inviting any who are weary to come?

Much love!

 

[Iconoclast]

Massive blocks of writing, when the answer is simple.

Massive blocks of writing were former saints giving honor to Gods word.
They searched it out in details to seek out truth.
You suggest the answer is "simple" and yet your posts tell another story.

 

[marks]

You suggest the answer is "simple" and yet your posts tell another story.

In fact, the truth is simple . . .

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

God's invitation is to all.

The question to be answered is equally simple.

Did God mean this? Or was He being deceptive?

Much love!

 

[Iconoclast]

"marks,
[Actually, Jesus is the "Elect Servant",

Isaiah 42:1-4 KJV
1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Marks...I am beginning to lay out basic bible truths concerning election.
I said I have noticed many here do not understand the basic teaching of it.
You are turning into such an example of it on this thread.
You quote from Ephesians 1;

God chose us In Him before the foundation of the world
That is election unto salvation.
Then you add your ideas which are contrary to the scripture you made reference to;

[God did not pick out some to live with Him in joy and love eternally,]

Yes He certainly did. God the Father gave a multitude of persons to the Son in the Covenant of Redemption.
For you to deny this demonstrates no interest in the biblical teaching commonly believed.

[and some to suffer in shame and torment eternally.]

Perhaps you can show from the teaching offered where this was said? Or do you and others just going to offer the typical shallow caricatures

[God desires all to come to salvation.]

God has elected a multitude to be saved. He is not willing that any of them perish. God has never intended to save all people ever born. Those who remain dead in Adam will go into second death, which is eternal torment, justly for their sins.


[We receive such blessings as we receive "in Christ", and nothing outside of Christ.]

we do not "receive in Christ" whatever you think that means.

[Ephesians 1:3 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

We receive "election" "in Christ". If any be in Christ he is a new creation. We believe and are baptized - immersed - into Christ.]

You obviously did not read the material offered. We do not receive election In Christ. God has elected us In CHRIST BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. iT IS ALL hIS ACTION.

 

[Curtis]

Having viewed several posts it has become apparent many have no idea on the teaching of these things.
What we believe should be informed by scripture, not what we "feel"" think" or "emotions".
Many resist the biblical teaching by not being familiar with it. Instead they post against false ideas of the teaching.
Here are some historic examples of the actual teaching;
J.P.Boyce....Abstract of Principles;


CHAPTER XXIX: ELECTION. THE words Elect, Election, Foreordination, Chosen, Foreknow, and Foreknowledge occur so frequently in Scripture, that it is allowed by all that the Scriptures teach a doctrine of Election of some kind.
The chief controversy is as to what that doctrine is.

election is: (1.) An act of God, and not the result of the choice of the elect.

(2.) That this choice is one of individuals, and not of classes.

(3.) That it was made without respect to the action of the persons elected.

(4.) By the good pleasure of God.

(5.) According to an eternal purpose.

(6.) That it is an election to salvation and not to outward privileges. To the Scriptures alone must we look for the truth upon this subject. Upon opening them we find that the words
Election and Elect are used in various senses.

1. They signify a choice to office whether by man or God. Luke 6:13. Christ's choice of the twelve Apostles. Acts 1:21-26. The selection of an Apostle in the place of Judas. Acts 9:15. Saul is called a chosen vessel. 1 Pet. 2:6-8. Christ is spoken of as the corner-stone, elect, precious that is laid in Zion.
2. The choice of Israel to their peculiar national privilege of being the chosen or separated people of God; as in Acts 13:17. "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers."

3. It is once used for a choice made of' salvation by an individual. Luke 10:42. "Mary hath chosen the good part which shall not be taken away from her."

4. In a large majority of cases it has reference to the choice to salvation, either in the purpose or act of choice by God.



It is to the doctrine taught in this last class of passages that our inquiries are to be turned.

(1.) Election is an act of God, and not the result of the choice of the Elect. This is not now an inquiry into the reason of Election; but simply into the agent. Does God choose the elect, whether by his own purpose, or because he foresees that they will believe, or for any other reason? Is election an act of God? The fact on this point would appear more clearly if we were to exchange the common word choice or chosen with the equivalent word elect. The following passages are sufficient, though the examples are far more numerous. John 13:18. "I know whom I have chosen." John 15:16. "Ye did not choose me, but I chose you" (not to their offices as apostle, but), "that ye should go and hear fruit." Rom. 8:33. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's chosen ones?" Rom. 9:15. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." Eph. 1:4. "Even as he chose us in him." Eph. 1:11. "Having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will." 2 Thess. 2:13. "God chose you from the beginning unto salvation."

2. This choice is one of individuals and not of classes. This position needs to be explained. It is not denied that the Elect are to be true believers, and that true believers are the Elect. The character of the Elect does not, therefore, enter into this question. The issue is simply, does God choose all who shall believe, and are they, as such, his elect? or, does he choose his elect, and will they, as such, believe? Is belief the result of God's election, or is God's election the result of man's faith? Acts 13:48. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." This is a historical statement made subsequent to the event, not by man's knowledge but by inspiration. Eph. 1:4, 5. "Even as he chose us in him, . . . having foreordained us unto adoption as sons." 2 Thess. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Here the choice is made to salvation, and the means to salvation, sanctification and faith, are indicated; no prerequisite or means being stated as to Election. It is not as believers that they are elected; but as elected, that they are saved. Rom. 8:29. "Whom he foreknew he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son." The foreknowledge here is of persons, not of personal acts, not of those whose faith he foreknew, nor, as would be essential to their theory, is it of the class of believers as such. The Arminian theory would require the substitution of the words "as believers" or "you as believers" instead of those which are used. It is not, therefore, to the class of believers, but to individuals that election refers. But, it may be asked, does it not refer to them in that character? Did not God choose those whose faith he for-saw?

(3.) The third point then to be proved is, that it was not because of any act or merit of theirs, but irrespective of anything but his own good pleasure, that this Election was made. This is merely a negative form of the same fact stated by the next point affirmatively. It is better, therefore, to unite this with the succeeding one, which is,

(4.) That the election is made through the mere good pleasure of God. Some of the passages simply affirm a choice by God's Sovereign will; others, while asserting this, also deny merit in those elected; and still others represent the fact of sovereignty by asserting a choice of such persons as would not ordinarily be chosen.

And the apostle Peter completely wrecks reformed doctrinal interpretation of election in just one passage:

Peter says we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by ADDING to our faith the FRUIT of virtue, Godliness, and love (charity), and he says that IF WE DO that, we won’t FALL, and we will have an entrance into heaven.


2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness (living a righteous life);


2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).


2Pe 1:8 For iF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE your calling and ELECTION sure: for iF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by ADDING fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.

 

[Stumpmaster]

A Four Dimensional Framework to describe the interactions between God and man.

I believe God has created us with a dimension of freewill which He wants us to exercise in harmony with His Will as expressed in His Word and evidenced in His Work.

1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.

2. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.​

​

3. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.

4. Divine Intervention - God knows those who are His and does whatever He wills to do according to His wisdom, mercy, and grace.
​

• None of these is mutually exclusive of the others, and in His eternal foreknowledge God is always intimately acquainted with all those who will eventually populate heaven, and has predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.
• The point where I part company with so-called Calvinistic predestination is when it claims the only reason people become born-again Bible-believing followers of Christ is because this was forced upon them against their will.
• One ridiculous claim of hyper-Calvinists is that a person can jump off a cliff shouting, "Curse God for creating me thus!", and still get to heaven because God has predestined them to.

Being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean an incapacity to hear the word of God, but without it leading us to faith we are actually children of wrath...so much for unchangeable predestination there.

God Makes Those Dead In Trespasses And Sins Alive AFTER Faith Developes In Them:

Fortuitously the Word of God is living and active, operating from moment to moment in this present life, so in essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.

Eph 2:1-5 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[Curtis]

What would it take to falsify the reformed doctrines of election and refute them?


In that system of theology, God saves the elect using unconditional election and irresistible grace, so that they have no choice in their election and regeneration.


If it can be seen in the scriptures any instance of Gods elect having a freewill choice that allows them to resist their election and refuse it, that would indeed falsify Calvinism.


And in fact, Bible has the refutation of Calvinism staring us in the face in its pages:


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is absolutely impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


The Bible is clear that God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - which is why elect Israel was able to reject their election - and proves there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to those same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him, BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, then rejected and KILLED their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, proving we have free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible - both of which disprove reformed election dogma.


And salvation is not guaranteed just from having faith, because we have freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected, then killed, their own savior, Jesus.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[Iconoclast]

And the apostle Peter completely wrecks reformed doctrinal interpretation of election in just one passage:

Peter says we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by ADDING to our faith the FRUIT of virtue, Godliness, and love (charity), and he says that IF WE DO that, we won’t FALL, and we will have an entrance into heaven.


2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness (living a righteous life);


2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).


2Pe 1:8 For iF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE your calling and ELECTION sure: for iF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by ADDING fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.

That is a great passage of scripture that teaches that election is certain, and once elected it shows our responsibilty to serve God and man.

Election is Gods work, not ours...you do not understand yet.
1689
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

[Renniks]

If you google the term it has been used to describe the 5 links of this unbreakable chain. We are not glorified yet, but for a blood-bought Child of God that is part of our inheritance with the saints in love.
29
1]For whom he did foreknow,

2] he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

3]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:

4]and whom he called, them he also justified:

5]and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation

servantsofgrace.org/the-golden-chain-of-salvation/

Past tense. He's talking about the ot saints, and it's about God being faithful not about some system of salvation.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That is a great passage of scripture that teaches that election is certain, and once elected it shows our responsibilty to serve God and man.

Election is Gods work, not ours...you do not understand yet.

Foreknowledge then Predestination to conformity to the image of Christ is the Scriptural order to be remembered.

God's Foreknowledge of whosover will believe and receive Christ by faith is as intimate as it gets. They are foreknown to God as the future inhabitants of heaven.

Not so those who rely on their works:

Mat 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[Iconoclast]

Curtis,
Hello Curtis.

[What would it take to falsify the reformed doctrines of election and refute them?]

Bible truth will not be refuted, because the truth stands...lets see what is of concern to you?


[In that system of theology, God saves the elect using unconditional election and irresistible grace, so that they have no choice in their election and regeneration.]

Who says they have no choice. Everyone who is effectually drawn comes modt willingly.psalm110:3
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

So Curtis seeing as you do not know the teaching, why do you post so foolishly? Why lie?


[If it can be seen in the scriptures any instance of Gods elect having a freewill choice that allows them to resist their election and refuse it, that would indeed falsify Calvinism]

the term freewill choice appears no where in scripture, because it is false carnal philosophy.

[And in fact, Bible has the refutation of Calvinism staring us in the face in its pages:]

Not at all, but this will show why you do not welcome these truths yet.

Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.
okay..

[They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4]

All believers from all time are God's elect.

[Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11]

Yes, they did. Do you think God was surprised by this?

[Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused]

Not all Israel if of Israel;
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


[Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!]

They would not because men apart from saving grace are totally depraved.

[This is absolutely impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.]
They were non elect reprobates. You have much to learn Curtis


[Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.]

Curtis, you left out the best part;
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord:
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Do you hate this verse Curtis?


The Bible is clear that God gave us free will,
It is so clear that there is not one verse saying any such thing.It does not say it, it does not teach it.

[and the Holy Spirit is resistible] -
No one says it is not...you do not understand irresitable grace

[which is why elect Israel was able to reject their election - and proves there is no such thing as irresistible grace.]

your lack of understanding as demonstrated by your posts here does not negate the biblical teaching.

[Stephen preached to those same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him, BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, then rejected and KILLED their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.]

They always resist because they are non elect



[Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).]
This proves total depravity among the non elect.


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, proving we have free will.

No..it proves you never have learned the 5 points correctly. I will help you if you want to learn

[Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible - both of which disprove reformed election dogma.]

No, just shows your strawman reasoning.


And salvation is not guaranteed just from having faith, because we have freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


[There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.]
Here it is;
1689 LBC: Chapter 10: "Of Effectual Calling"

 

[Iconoclast]

Past tense. He's talking about the ot saints, and it's about God being faithful not about some system of salvation.

No...it is speaking of All the elect sheep,for all time;
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Stumpmaster,

Hello SM, thanks for offering your thoughts
[I believe God has created us with a dimension of freewill which He wants us to exercise in harmony with His Will as expressed in His Word and evidenced in His Work.]

We all believe many things, but only what is found in scripture matters.Freewill is not there.

[1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.]
What you are describing is omniscience, not biblical foreknowledge.

[2. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.]
No, God predestines the elect to be conformed to the Image of the Son​

​

[3. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.]
Free will does not exist.

[4. Divine Intervention - God knows those who are His and does whatever He wills to do according to His wisdom, mercy, and grace.]
This is biblical​

• [The point where I part company with so-called Calvinistic predestination is when it claims the only reason people become born-again Bible-believing followers of Christ is because this was forced upon them against their will.]

No biblical Calvinist teaches what you say here. Where are you getting such an idea. One reason I started this thread was to dispel such myths.

• [One ridiculous claim of hyper-Calvinists is that a person can jump off a cliff shouting, "Curse God for creating me thus!", and still get to heaven because God has predestined them to.]
• No biblical Calvinist says this

[Being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean an incapacity to hear the word of God, but without it leading us to faith we are actually children of wrath...so much for unchangeable predestination there.]

When you misuse the terms like this you are not really speaking about the topics.



[God Makes Those Dead In Trespasses And Sins Alive AFTER Faith Developes In Them:]

wrong once again...dead men need life

 

[Stumpmaster]

[1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.]
What you are describing is omniscience, not biblical foreknowledge.

Just a note, so far I have escaped blatant ad hom fallacy attacks from you but I notice you use them on others. My response to such is to make use of the ignore function.

To the above quote, by definition omniscience incorporates foreknowledge.

 

[Stumpmaster]

[2. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.]
No, God predestines the elect to be conformed to the Image of the Son

Just a note, so far I have escaped blatant ad hom fallacy attacks from you but I notice you use them on others. My response to such is to make use of the ignore function.

To the above quote, being conformed to the image of Christ is included in the criteria for salvation.

 

[Stumpmaster]

[3. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.]
Free will does not exist.

Just a note, so far I have escaped blatant ad hom fallacy attacks from you but I notice you use them on others. My response to such is to make use of the ignore function.

To the above quote, the insistence that freewill does not exist serves to prove that it does, since it is an opinion freely held with no evidence.

Scriptural Evidence of the Dimension of Freewill:

Isa 66:1-4 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? (2) For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the LORD. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word. (3) "He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, (4) So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

 

[Iconoclast]

Just a note, so far I have escaped blatant ad hom fallacy attacks from you but I notice you use them on others. My response to such is to make use of the ignore function.

To the above quote, by definition omniscience incorporates foreknowledge.

SM, you post trying to add to the discussions and be helpful. Others are quite malicious and insert themselves into the posts. I respond to what is offered.

Nothing is outside of omniscience,however;
If you study biblical foreknowledge you will see it is quite specific and about PERSONS ,NOT EVENTS.
HERE;
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.