TULIP an open discussion

[setst777]

You bring up some good questions, and I am going to respond the best I can by Scripture.

Or could it be said Gods promise are only to those who truly believe, for they WILL remain..

If it is true that the true believer will remain - guaranteed - what do we do with all the instruction and warnings in the Epistles given to the Believers about remaining faithful, about falling away, about standing firm in the doctrine to be saved?

What do we do with Passages that show that some who were in "THE" [def. article] Faith but later fell away?

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

When we understand that the Epistles are all written to true believers, the elect bride, grafted into Israel by faith in Lord Jesus (Romans 11:19-22), then doesn't it appear that all the warnings to these Christians about falling away, and examples of those who did fall away, are written because of the real possibility that they can fall away if they are not careful?

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) The Apostle Paul instructs Timothy: 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

when you write it as you did, you make it appear that our ability or work of remaining is earning our salvation.

The "work" we do comes from "faith." If our Faith is genuine, then we have now renounced the old life of sinful passions, and have committed ourselves to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, which is what Baptism represents (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17).

This is "The Faith" by which the Spirit indwells the believer to lead him in the faith he committed to when he first believed.

However, the Christian remains responsible for his faith, in that, the Scriptures repeatedly warn the believers about falling away.

ok I see what your saying so they lose fellowship, not the childship (they are still sons and daughters?

Would you say that we are adopted sons and daughters through faith?

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

If a Christian does not continue in the faith, is he/she still a child of God? Just wondering.

But John said a child of God can not practice sin. so when you say when a christian practices sin will not inherit the kingdom seems a tad legalistic to me.. And worries me some. which is why I am trying to understand hat you are saying before I make any rash conclusions which are in error.

A person who is "born of God" cannot continue in sin (1 John 3:9-10). However, what happens if the born of God Christian, whom John is writing to, does not remain in the faith?

1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

According to John, who is responsible for remaining in the Gospel doctrine - God or the Christians he is writing to?

yes. Those who are in Christ, sealed by the spirit and adopted as sons and daughters learn to walk in the spirit..

Whose obligation is it to live by the Spirit to have life?

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

What do you think Paul meant by saying "if we do not give up" in the following Scripture?
Also, to whom will the Spirit give eternal life to according to this Passage?

Galatians 6:7 (WEB) Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

What does Paul mean when he states"
"{{{If}}} we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit?"

Is this instruction that Paul is giving for Christians to follow, and does it include himself (we/us)?

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified [past tense] the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Are the warnings in "Galatians 5:20-21" given to Spirit indwelt Christians or false believers?
Also, whose responsibility is it to "keep in step with the Spirit?"

Galatians 5:20-21, 24 (WEB) 21 I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. ... 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk [keep in step with] by the Spirit.

Is "Hebrews 10:24-31" written as a sober warning to true Believers or false Christians?

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB)
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
26 {{{For}}} if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Will God judge HIS people if they do not remain faithful? Or were these false believers all along?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You bring up some good questions, and I am going to respond the best I can by Scripture.



If it is true that the true believer will remain - guaranteed - what do we do with all the instruction and warnings in the Epistles given to the Believers about remaining faithful, about falling away, about standing firm in the doctrine to be saved?

please note. I had to delete some of your verses to get this below 10000 words.. Thank you for responding and this discussion. I look forward to your response


Or are these warnings given to those who have not been saved yet?

Does God contradict himself?

What do we do with Passages that show that some who were in "THE" [def. article] Faith but later fell away?

I have yet to find one.

When we understand that the Epistles are all written to true believers, the elect bride, grafted into Israel by faith in Lord Jesus (Romans 11:19-22), then doesn't it appear that all the warnings to these Christians about falling away, and examples of those who did fall away, are written because of the real possibility that they can fall away if they are not careful?

Ah, but here I disagree.. The epistles were written to be read in churches.. it is a mistake to assume everyon in a particular church who these letters were written to were saved.

I believe many false ideas have come because people assume everyone is saved.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) The Apostle Paul instructs Timothy: 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

You still not showing me how eternal life can be lost and how the seal of the spirit can be broken.

The "work" we do comes from "faith." If our Faith is genuine, then we have now renounced the old life of sinful passions, and have committed ourselves to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, which is what Baptism represents (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17).

This is "The Faith" by which the Spirit indwells the believer to lead him in the faith he committed to when he first believed.

However, the Christian remains responsible for his faith, in that, the Scriptures repeatedly warn the believers about falling away.

What is God going to do so bad that you stop trusting in him for salvation?

Would you say that we are adopted sons and daughters through faith?

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

If a Christian does not continue in the faith, is he/she still a child of God? Just wondering.

So are you saying we are adopted then kicked out?

If an adopted or natural child walks out of his family. does he stop being a son?

A person who is "born of God" cannot continue in sin (1 John 3:9-10). However, what happens if the born of God Christian, whom John is writing to, does not remain in the faith?

They are still children of God.

1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

According to John, who is responsible for remaining in the Gospel doctrine - God or the Christians he is writing to?

Look at what he said, If what you heard remains in you.

Just because a person heard something does not mean they have trusted it.. We have a history of people hearing the word. staying for awhile then walking away and returning to what they really trusted in.

Whose obligation is it to live by the Spirit to have life?

Well thats mine, But thats sanctification correct?

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

What do you think Paul meant by saying "if we do not give up" in the following Scripture?
Also, to whom will the Spirit give eternal life to according to this Passage?

Galatians 6:7 (WEB) Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

So we are saved by works, not grace? I am trying to understand where you are coming from..

What does Paul mean when he states"
"{{{If}}} we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit?"

Is this instruction that Paul is giving for Christians to follow, and does it include himself (we/us)?

Oh, this is a great verse. if we want to live life abundantly, we need to keep in step. But our eternal salvation is not earned or lost depending on how well we follow this command is it?

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified [past tense] the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Are the warnings in "Galatians 5:20-21" given to Spirit indwelt Christians or false believers?
Also, whose responsibility is it to "keep in step with the Spirit?"

Galatians 5:20-21, 24 (WEB) 21 I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. ... 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk [keep in step with] by the Spirit.

Is "Hebrews 10:24-31" written as a sober warning to true Believers or false Christians?



Will God judge HIS people if they do not remain faithful? Or were these false believers all along?

I think we may be talking about 2 different things?

Justification is the act of being born again, having our sins forgiven. By one offering he has perfected forever.

Sanctification is christian growth. Many will grow into mature adults in christ. Some may not grow at all., and remain babes.. But they are still children are they not?

then we have those who many call make believers who claim to have faith, but their faith is either in their works, or in the way they live, so we have the pharisee, and licentious living side by side thinking they are made righteous by how good they are (think they are)

 

[Ritajanice]

Philippians 1:29​

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him

29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him. 29 There's far more to this life than trusting in Christ. There's also suffering for him. And the suffering is as much a gift as the trusting​

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1 Corinthians 12​

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King James Version​

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12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[setst777]

Or are these warnings given to those who have not been saved yet?

The Epistles are written to the Churches - assemblies of believers.

Does God contradict himself?

No, I do not believe God ever contradicts himself.

I have yet to find one.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

Who are "the disciples" who will be drawn away by false teachers of whom Paul warned for three years with tears will happen?

Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away {{{the disciples}}} after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears.

Ah, but here I disagree.. The epistles were written to be read in churches.. it is a mistake to assume everyon in a particular church who these letters were written to were saved.

The Epistles are addressed to true Christians at the beginning of almost every Epistle.

The Apostolic Writers also addressed the Christians for their instruction, encouragement, warning, and admonition with the inclusive pronouns "we," "our," "us," "you," and "beloved," peppered throughout their Epistles.

When the Epistles refer to the unbelievers, or the wicked, the non-inclusive pronouns are used: "them," "their," "those," and "they."

You still not showing me how eternal life can be lost and how the seal of the spirit can be broken.

Paul includes Timothy, and himself, as having the possibility of falling away.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Peter warns the "called" and "elect" to be diligent to make their calling and election {{sure.}}

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

What is God going to do so bad that you stop trusting in him for salvation?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

If an adopted or natural child walks out of his family. does he stop being a son?

Unlike a natural child, to be part of God's family, you must believe.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Even the natural branches are cut off because they fall away in God's family.

Romans 11:21-22 (WEB) 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Look at what he said, If what you heard remains in you.

It actually states: "Let that remain in you"

1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

The born of God believer's responsibility is to remain in the Gospel so they may remain in the Son, and the Father.

Continued. . .

 

[setst777]

Just because a person heard something does not mean they have trusted it.. We have a history of people hearing the word. staying for awhile then walking away and returning to what they really trusted in.

John wrote his letter to Believers, calling them "born of God" (1 John 5:1, 4), "children of God" (1 John 3:1), "beloved" (1 John 2:7), "my little children" (1 John 2:1), and so forth.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

setst777 said: Whose obligation is it to live by the Spirit to have life?

Well thats mine, But thats sanctification correct?

The Spirit sanctifies us as we sanctify ourselves to the Spirit. We can reject God and His Spirit living in us.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

So we are saved by works, not grace? I am trying to understand where you are coming from..

By grace through faith.

Oh, this is a great verse. if we want to live life abundantly, we need to keep in step. But our eternal salvation is not earned or lost depending on how well we follow this command is it?

Faith is manifested in sanctification to God "1 Thessalonians 4:3-8." He who rejects this is rejecting God and His Spirit living in him.

Justification is the act of being born again

All the OT Saints, including Abraham, were justified by believing God (James 2:23) long before the New Covenant of the Spirit in Christ began.

James 2:23 (WEB) So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness,” [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

having our sins forgiven. By one offering he has perfected forever.

I am not sure why you put a period at the end of that partial quote.

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Who are the ones perfected? The believers are perfected forever through sanctification.

Blessings and Love

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Unlike a natural child, to be part of God's family, you must believe.

Great point!

 

[Prycejosh1987]

L = Limited Atonement

This is interesting because it seems subjective. As in what atonement looks like for one is not the same as another. People sin at different levels and rates yet nearly all sin is counted the same in Gods. There are also people who have a greater capacity to sin like mentally ill folks and those with other disabilities. I personally believe that atonement is limitless because we need to keep growing to get out of the stages of sin and the strong hold it can have on us. Jesus died for all sin for all time according to Apostle Paul. But the way to be forgiven is a heart which persistently wants to be like God in mentality and actions.

 

[JunChosen]

What I understand from Scripture is that God draws us to Him, and we have to choose. If we choose to believe, God gives us rebirth. If we do not, He does not.

You are in error! The above is not what Jesus uttered in John 6:44. He said, "No one can come to me except the Father draw him." This is how we understand the letter "i" in the acronym TULIP to be understood as "Irresistible grace" that is. God's drawing us to Jesus is completed.

To God Be The Glory

 

[setst777]

You are in error! The above is not what Jesus uttered in John 6:44. He said, "No one can come to me except the Father draw him." This is how we understand the letter "i" in the acronym TULIP to be understood as "Irresistible grace" that is. God's drawing us to Jesus is completed.

To God Be The Glory

No Christian of any persuasion disagrees that the Father draws them. How does the Father draw us? He draws us by the prophetic Gospel Call to salvation (Romans 10:17-18; Romans 1:16-17), and the convicting power of the Spirit (John 16:8).

The drawing is not irresistible, because many do refuse the Gospel call, even killing the prophets, and they resist the Spirit.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit.
As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered

 

[marks]

You are in error! The above is not what Jesus uttered in John 6:44. He said, "No one can come to me except the Father draw him." This is how we understand the letter "i" in the acronym TULIP to be understood as "Irresistible grace" that is. God's drawing us to Jesus is completed.

To God Be The Glory

Remember that Jesus said if He be lifted up (crucified) He would draw all men to Himself. The cross changed things.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is interesting because it seems subjective. As in what atonement looks like for one is not the same as another. People sin at different levels and rates yet nearly all sin is counted the same in Gods. There are also people who have a greater capacity to sin like mentally ill folks and those with other disabilities. I personally believe that atonement is limitless because we need to keep growing to get out of the stages of sin and the strong hold it can have on us. Jesus died for all sin for all time according to Apostle Paul. But the way to be forgiven is a heart which persistently wants to be like God in mentality and actions.

Your view is insightful in my opinion, especially your point that reconciliation is subjective. That is, given that Jesus saves sinners, I want to know if Jesus will save me specifically.

In the New Testament, "atonement" is the means by which God and man make peace. Suppose I offend my neighbor, and he won't speak to me anymore. One day, I went next door and asked him what I had done to offend him and how we might become friendly again. He might say, "All I need for you to do is acknowledge what you did and offer me an apology." In that case, the thing that makes for peace between me and my neighbor is a sincere apology.

The New Testament asserts that Jesus' death on the cross is the basis on which God and man reconcile with each other. Paul asserts that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

The doctrine of Limit atonement seeks to understand how it works, whether it is effective, and whether it applies to each and every person in the world.

 

[marks]

In the New Testament, "atonement" is the means by which God and man make peace. Suppose I offend my neighbor, and he won't speak to me anymore. One day, I went next door and asked him what I had done to offend him and how we might become friendly again. He might say, "All I need for you to do is acknowledge what you did and offer me an apology." In that case, the thing that makes for peace between me and my neighbor is a sincere apology.

How do you use the word "atonement", and how do you compare it to "propitiation"? Personally I find that as "atonement" is routinely applied to the work of the OT sacrifices, where sin is covered, but not remitted, it brings in confusion when we speak of Jesus' work on the cross.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The New Testament asserts that Jesus' death on the cross is the basis on which God and man reconcile with each other. Paul asserts that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

The doctrine of Limit atonement seeks to understand how it works, whether it is effective, and whether it applies to each and every person in the world.

As you've quoted from the Scriptures, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, so it is to the world. Even as John said, "Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. All gone! So now reconciliation rests on whether or not we will receive it, as the Scriptures say, so we urge you, be reconciled to God.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

The above is not what Jesus uttered in John 6:44. He said, "No one can come to me except the Father draw him." This is how we understand the letter "i" in the acronym TULIP to be understood as "Irresistible grace" that is. God's drawing us to Jesus is completed.

To God Be The Glory

Amen!!!

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◄ Ephesians 1:17 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. New Living Translation asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. English Standard Version that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, Berean Standard Bible that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. Berean Literal Bible that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,

 

[JunChosen]

No Christian of any persuasion disagrees that the Father draws them. How does the Father draw us? He draws us by the prophetic Gospel Call to salvation (Romans 10:17-18; Romans 1:16-17), and the convicting power of the Spirit (John 16:8).

The drawing is not irresistible, because many do refuse the Gospel call, even killing the prophets, and they resist the Spirit.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit.
As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered

No Christian of any persuasion disagrees that the Father draws them. How does the Father draw us? He draws us by the prophetic Gospel Call to salvation (Romans 10:17-18; Romans 1:16-17), and the convicting power of the Spirit (John 16:8).

The drawing is not irresistible, because many do refuse the Gospel call, even killing the prophets, and they resist the Spirit.

Yes!!! The drawing of God IS irresistible! BUT-ONLY-TO-THOSE-WHOM-THE-FATHER-ELECTED/CHOSEN-IN-ETERNITY-PAST-BEFORE-THE-FOUNDATION-OF-THE-WORLD!

Those who resist the Spirit are because by nature they are Spiritually dead, and a Spiritually dead person has no capacity, nor power to do anything spiritually. Lol.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit.
As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered

Actually, in a sense, the ones who really killed Jesus are His sheep those He gave His life for (Matthew 1:21).

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

Yes!!! The drawing of God IS irresistible!

Then why does God through His apostle urge people to be reconciled to God? That would be no different then me telling my car, you need to be repaired! Please, be repaired!! When I'm the one deciding whether I'm going to fix it or scrap it.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

How do you use the word "atonement", and how do you compare it to "propitiation"? Personally I find that as "atonement" is routinely applied to the work of the OT sacrifices, where sin is covered, but not remitted, it brings in confusion when we speak of Jesus' work on the cross.

Much love!

"Atonement" is a made-up word based on three smaller words: "at-one-ment," and it means "the state of being reconciled."

Propitiation is the state of being "mollified." This word indicates when someone performs a very pleasing act to appease the anger and wrath of a god, or a powerful person. For example, if a young child accidentally breaks a very expensive vase and her father gets very mad, she might try to make up for it by picking some flowers from the garden and giving them to her dad. Her father sees her contrition, which warms his heart and mollifies his anger.

John the Apostle tells us that the cross of Christ was an act of propitiation. "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10) Jesus turned away the wrath of God because God was very pleased with what Jesus did.

Contrary to popular conception, our sins were not remitted. Jesus didn't "pay" for our sins. Rather, as John says, God sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins, meaning, our sins were forgiven because Jesus' obedience appeased God's wrath.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then why does God through His apostle urge people to be reconciled to God? That would be no different then me telling my car, you need to be repaired! Please, be repaired!! When I'm the one deciding whether I'm going to fix it or scrap it.

Much love!

Suppose you wrote a story about Jack becoming reconciled to God. You might write that Jill encouraged Jack to become reconciled to God and Jack listened to Jill. You, as the author, not only decided that Jack would reconcile, you also decided that Jill would encourage Jack to reconcile. You, as the author, determine both.

 

[Rockerduck]

RJ Sproul's definition.

L stands for limited atonement, which describes God’s intent behind the death of Christ in providing salvation.

Christians can rest assured that if they believe, it is because of the work of God, and that work cannot fail because His love cannot fail.​

Limited atonement is necessitated by God’s justice. If sin has been atoned for, it has been judged and God no longer holds it against us.

Limited atonement is also taught explicitly in Scripture. Under the old covenant, on the Day of Atonement, the high priest of Israel offered an atoning sacrifice only for the people of Israel, not for everyone on the planet (Lev. 16). In the new covenant, Jesus tells us that He lays His life down for His sheep and only for His sheep (John 10:1–18). Some people are not His sheep but are goats. Jesus died not for the goats but for the sheep—His people. We should note that some people have objected to limited atonement because of texts such as 1 John 2:2, which says Jesus is the propitiation not for our sins only but “for the sins of the whole world.” Yet, that text is not talking about the intent of the atonement; rather, it refers to the way of salvation more generally. God has provided only one way of salvation—through Christ (John 14:6). If anyone in the world is going to be saved, it is going to be through Him. There is no other way. The point of 1 John 2:2 is that Christ is the only atonement that can save anyone, not that He has atoned for the sins of every individual.

 

[Ritajanice]

A natural child is just that.

A spiritual child is one who has been Born Of The Spirit...you can read the written word until the cows come home , the written word backs up the Living Holy Spirit.

Only the Living Holy Spirit can bring our spirit Alive, scripture is nothing without a “ Living “ testimony.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...you don’t need any Greek ,grammar or reams and reams of scripture to understand that.

It’s understood in the heart/ spirit...that’s where we know we are Born Again...and that is where we are Born Of The Spirit.

Posting reams and reams of scripture is absolutely pointless, if you don’t have the Living witness Living in your heart..only He can witness Gods truth to our heart/ spirit.