TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

A man choosing to commit a series of murder is motivated by divine origin?

I didn't say a person was motivated by divine origin. Right? I said his motives had a divine origin. His motives are his. They belong to him. But he received them from God.

To better comprehend this topic, as I previously stated, we can compare our existence to a novel. In the same way that a novelist creates a story, God is the creator of our lives. For example, if a novelist writes a story about a man who, consumed by hate, decides to kill his wife, the man is guilty of murder. His actions can be explained in the context of the story the novelist is telling. But just as we don't hold the novelist accountable for the murder, we don't hold God accountable for the evil actions of his creatures.

<Sigh>I cannot convince myself that circles are not round.

Can you convince yourself that an ellipse is a circle when looking at the eclipse from a particular vantage point? Imagine you have a cylinder. Turn the cylinder so that you are looking down the long axis and you will see a circle. Cut the cylinder in half at an angle. The cut will look like an ellipse from the side but it will continue to look like a circle from the top.

The concepts of freedom and God's sovereignty are like a cylinder in our hand, which can be turned to reveal a rectangle or a circle. However, we cannot see the ellipse until we find a new perspective. To understand the nature of God in relation to his creatures, we need to gain a new perspective. We can do this by understanding God's transcendent nature.

The analogy between an author and a novel helps me understand the principle of transcendence. It is because an author is to God what a novel is to reality. An author transcends his novel in such a way that causality is subject to his will. Nothing happens in the novel unless the author writes it. Moreover, no characters exist in the novel other than the ones the author writes about. However, since the author is a rational being, causality within the novel uses the same logic as causality within his reality.

Accordingly, if God "writes" that a man murders his wife, then the man's rational and motives are understood within the reality/novel that God is writing.

To suggest it is a matter of will, a matter of stubborness or moral defect on my part is absurd!

Not sure why.

You keep getting things backwards, confusing cause and effect.

I'm not sure how.

Consider how well Christians keep the command to love one another so the world will know we are Christ's disciples? Horrible. Anyone paying attention has NO REASON TO BELIEF what we are saying is true. Said differently, the ancients believed because of evidence! The Hebrews saw God part the Red Sea and many other signs and wonders.

I agree. However, what I began to understand from the prophets is that God is also causing the Red Sea to flow "normally." From a particular perspective, the Red Sea flows according the "laws of physics" but from another perspective, the "laws of physics" is nothing more and nothing less than "what God normally does."

I agree with your observation concerning evidence and the lack of empiricism in the world today.

Today, religionists are contend to divorce their theology from reality and actually expect people to believe despite their experience. Rather than look inward at our failure - to love each other as Christ loved us - we are content to condemn the image bearer of God for "willful unbelief."

To conclude this rant, I fundamentally reject these posts of your @CadyandZoe in the strongest possible terms! I suppose this is the basis for so much acrimony against Calvinism.

I understand your rant and I know how much this subject can result in bitterness and strife, which is why I normally avoid it. I called the thread an "open dialog" so that we might share ideas and perspective and allow for each person to make up his or her own mind.

I appreciate the "push-back" especially because I know you to be fair and reasonable and willing to dialog. And I respect your opinion and value your feedback. Thanks

 

[CadyandZoe]

There you go again, doing laps on ground already covered.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that people read the entire thread. I thought that I was compelled to repeat myself when talking to a different person. Am I wrong about that?

 

[marks]

To better comprehend this topic, as I previously stated, we can compare our existence to a novel. In the same way that a novelist creates a story, God is the creator of our lives. For example, if a novelist writes a story about a man who, consumed by hate, decides to kill his wife, the man is guilty of murder. His actions can be explained in the context of the story the novelist is telling. But just as we don't hold the novelist accountable for the murder, we don't hold God accountable for the evil actions of his creatures.

The novelist creates a story, but it's just that, a story, not an actual murder.

The novelist determined that a murder would happen in his story, and therefore the ficticious murder did in fact come from the writer. But it's not a real murder.

Your analogy isn't analogous, it's apples and oranges.

The writer is the sole originator of his character's actions, having imagined them, and recorded his imaginations. Were God to create someone's life so that they are a murder, God did that, and let's not play word games.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm not sure that is true. However, Scripture contains more than the writings of Paul. Salvation is certainly framed as an offer by John 3:16 and the author of Hebrews.

John 3:16 doesn't sound like an offer to my ears. But it might sound like an offer to others. It is a simple statement of fact to my ears.

John spends a lot of time in his gospel exploring the relationship between evidence and belief. And he explores why some believe while others don't believe. Mark records the story of a father who asked Jesus to heal his son. The Father remarked "I do believe, help my unbelief!" Belief in God and Jesus is such a personal and deeply inward experience that it seems like a miracle when someone does believe. "Whoever believes" is a complex concept involving private emotions and barriers to be overcome.

 

[CadyandZoe]

100%. Sin would not be possible if human agency was a strict extention of divine will

Okay, but I wonder whether the human will is autonomous. Do we exist independently of God? If not, what is the form and structure of our dependence?

(Maybe I should lay off the coffee a bit? )

 

[setst777]

I'm not sure what words you would need to read to define a passage as an "offer".

Here is one place that speaks this way to me:

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Much love!

Yes, so true. And God urges us to look to him to be saved.

Isaiah 45:22 (WEB) Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Notice that God is offering salvation to the entire world by looking to Him.

Also, the intent of the Gospel is to bring salvation to the entire world. The call of the Gospel messages is that we may be saved by faith in Lord Jesus.

Acts 13:47 (WEB) For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” [Isaiah 49:6]

 

[marks]

Okay, but I wonder whether the human will is autonomous. Do we exist independently of God? If not, what is the form and structure of our dependence?

(Maybe I should lay off the coffee a bit? )

Either God chooses for us to sin, making Him the responsible party, or a person chooses to sin, making them the responsible party.

It is unreasonable to assert that God causes the sin, but is not responsible for the sin He causes.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, the condition does prove we can go other way. If we could not go another way, it would be unconditional.

I understand the argument that a free-will choice should be entirely free, to the extent that one could have chosen the alternative if they had wished to. However, I believe that this perspective does not take into account the role of motivation in our decisions. Free-will is not just the ability to choose between alternatives, but it also reflects our personal choices. Our free-will choices are influenced by our preferences, goals, ideas, wishes, hopes, dreams, likes, loves, and all other aspects of our inner selves. Therefore, our choices cannot be considered truly free unless they say something about us personally and define us in some way.

The theological question is this. How much of "me" is in God's hands?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's Jeremiah's potter analogy, isn't it? Paul merely piggy backed on it.

No. Paul is making his own point using a potter analogy. An analogy can have more than one "target" idea in view. Jeremiah's target idea is distinctly different than Paul's target idea.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are being willfully ignorant of the point; the reaction of the pot being created.

The pot's reaction is absent from Paul's potter analogy.

It is not God that has to be justified to us; we have to justify ourselves to God.

You have too many things fundamentally backwards. So, I'll leave this thread.

It was a pleasure to dialogue with you.

 

[APAK]

I think you need to rethink what I just wrote. That's not what I said, and putting words into my mouth does not increase communication.

What I said was, We are chosen in Christ. We are not in Christ until we are reborn. We are baptized into Christ, and share what is His, including His election.

As for the "wrong Jesus", Jesus is YHWH, born as a man on earth, at the same time both God and man. I don't think that is "your Jesus".

Given that we have a solid and fundamental disagreement over who Jesus is, well, you can finish that thought yourself.

Much love!

If that is what you meant marks then I understand this last post of yours, including 'our ongoing disagreement,' except for the part again when you said '......... and share what is His, including His election' Can you clear this up for me?. I really do not want to guess again and get the same type of reply.

thx

 

[CadyandZoe]

setst777 said: Nothing in those verses state that God created some to be good or bad, or created Jacob to love and Esau to hate.



“Election” means to “choose.” God chooses to save those who believe in His Son, because His Son died for the sins of the world, so that, all those believing in him may be saved (John 3:16).

You say this like God could have chosen the alternative because that is what we are discussing here. Wrangler reminded us that free-will choice is the ability to choose another alternative. So, a logical implication of your view is that God could have chosen to damn those who believed in Jesus and save those who hated Jesus.

Understand, I'm not suggesting that you said this or believe this. I'm looking at the logic of your statement. To say that God chose to save those who believe is to suggest or imply an alternative exists. I don't think anyone believes that God could have chosen to damn those who believe in Jesus. God is constrained by his character, goals and truth.

The election isn't the choice to save believers; that goes without saying. Election decides which person will be a believer and who will survive trials and tribulations.

In Romans 9, Paul's argument is that:

If by works, we will be judged by the Law - which brings judgment by the Law.
If by our faith, we are made righteous.

A review of Romans will reveal that Paul has finished making those points at the start of chapter 6.

You are confusing what was promised in Romans 9:9, in contrast to what God prophesied before they were born.

God's statement that the younger shall serve the elder is neither a prediction or a promise. It is a statement of intent, indicating what God will do. He is the one who decided that the younger would serve the elder and that he would work in Jacob's favor (love) and to Esau's disadvantage. (Hate.)

First of all, God is not unjust for blessing with good things to someone who trusts in God and obeys him.

Okay. I get that. But consider why Paul asked his rhetorical question. Did he not ask because his previous point might be taken as a defense of God's injustice? Yes, which is why he asked the rhetorical question.

Esau did not express true Faith in God . . .

Paul tells us that God's treatment of Esau was not based on what Esau wanted or did.

but God already foreknew it.

He caused it.

Yes, God orchestrated events to bring about His plan of salvation, all the way up the chain to Lord Jesus, but the Scriptures do not teach that God created Jacob’s and Esau’s choices.

How does God orchestrate events without creating choices? Think about it.

Why does the Father love us? Not because God created us to love and believe in Lord Jesus, but God loves us because we love and believe in him. So, your doctrine falls.

When the Bible speaks about God's love, it refers to what he does, not how he feels. When it says that God loved Jacob, it means that God worked to Jacob's benefit. When it says that God hated Esau, it means that God worked everything against Esau. And Paul says, God decided to work everything to Jacob's benefit before Jacob was born and he decided to work against Esau before he was born.

You want God's decision to remain explicable in terms of human choice, but it isn't.

 

[marks]

If that is what you meant marks then I understand this last post of yours, including 'our ongoing disagreement,' except for the part again when you said '......... and share what is His, including His election' Can you clear this up for me?. I really do not want to guess again and get the same type of reply.

thx

Hi APAK,

I don't see any real purpose to pursuing this between you and I. We have fundamentally different beliefs. This should help explain the idea of corporate election, and comes from someone with more your point of view, excepting that Jesus is God come in flesh, which they affirm.

What is corporate election? | GotQuestions.org

What is corporate election? Did God elect Christ and then we become one of the elect by receiving Christ as Savior?

www.gotquestions.org

Much love!

 

[APAK]

Hi APAK,

I don't see any real purpose to pursuing this between you and I. We have fundamentally different beliefs. This should help explain the idea of corporate election, and comes from someone with more your point of view, excepting that Jesus is God come in flesh, which they affirm.

What is corporate election? | GotQuestions.org

What is corporate election? Did God elect Christ and then we become one of the elect by receiving Christ as Savior?

www.gotquestions.org

Much love!

I began to agree with your source until I read these words, .....

".....Corporate election is the idea that, when God elected or predestined people to be saved, He did not pick out individual people; rather, God chose Christ. Since Christ is the chosen one, all who come to Christ in faith are part of the chosen group. This view is sometimes called “class election” or expressed as God’s predestinating “the way of salvation.” In other words, “God chose the plan, not the man.” He chose the corporate entity in which salvation can take place (“in Christ”), but He did not choose the individuals who would be saved. A person only becomes part of the elect when he or she exercises faith in Christ. People are “chosen” when they choose to join the group that God had chosen...."

The words I bolded, collectively speak to the one same reason why I disagree with it, and therefore your view of election as used here in this subject.

God does choose individuals for salvation because, as this source completely disregarded, altogether, the missing word, that of foreknowledge.

God, outside of time, has foreknowledge of our actions, for any thought or action, of every life, in every generation, towards him, his influence on our heart, for his power of the gospel of salvation. He foreknew our hearts and our motivation to decide to repent. He saw many already, before they were born, who will not not repent and receive faith to salvation with the Spirit. He called them although they were never chosen.

He therefore has no choice to then only elect or choose his own for salvation, even before they were born. And he is still only electing those that turned to him in repentance he foresaw.

And then your source continues, and says "....In corporate election, the ultimate choice of being saved is up the individual...."

Yes, and God already knew who would open their hearts to God and repent of their sins. Many resist the Spirit of God and are never chosen by God.

And this doctrine of corporate election is also unbiblical. He chooses individuals and not groups, although it might theoretical seem that one specific group is chosen.....and of course they are the one group in Christ. That is too obvious!

Romans 8:29 :
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And yes, as the source says: "...Christ is the chosen one, all who come to Christ in faith are part of the chosen, foreknown group.."

And those in Christ, His elected ones, are also foreknown of God as one group, already. We of course cannot fathom this capability of God's foreknowledge, and many deny then that God wills see our future refusal to open our hearts to God. And they only believe and come to God on their own terms without the presence of God. This is not being saved or salvation at all.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Nothing in those verses state that God created some to be good or bad, or created Jacob to love and Esau to hate.

“Election” means to “choose.” God chooses to save those who believe in His Son, because His Son died for the sins of the world, so that, all those believing in him may be saved (John 3:16).

You say this like God could have chosen the alternative because that is what we are discussing here. Wrangler reminded us that free-will choice is the ability to choose another alternative.

God didn’t have to save anyone, but he chose to. The Scriptures teach us, God loves mankind, giving His Son to die for us (John 3:16) not willing that any should perish (Romans 2:4-5); and so, it is God’s gracious intent and good pleasure to have mercy on all sinners (Romans 11:32) through the preaching of Gospel; so that, those believing in His Son may be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so {{{loved}}} the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life

The election isn't the choice to save believers; that goes without saying. Election decides which person will be a believer and who will survive trials and tribulations.

The Scriptures teach us that God graciously saves those who believe – the same faith Abraham had:

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Those who believe (demonstrated by not bowing down to other gods of their making: Matthew 6:24) are the ones God elects to save – election of grace.

Romans 11:3-5 (WEB) 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars. I am left alone, and they seek my life.”[1 Kings 19:10,14] 4 But how does God answer him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [1 Kings 19:18] 45 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

God’s gracious gift of salvation is through our faith in Lord Jesus

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been {{{justified through faith}}} we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained our access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law

The Children of the Promise are those who believe – not of the Law, but by Faith

Romans 9:8 (WEB) 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as heirs.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB) 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense;
and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

The Children of the Promise are those who believe – the same faith Abraham had, the father of faith. Therefore, believers inherit the Promises of God made to the OT fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - grafted into Elect Israel - by our faith, and remaining in the faith lest we be cut off (Romans 11:16-24)

Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

By enduring in the faith, Christians are assured that they will inherit The Promises – the Children of The Promise.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that {{{each one of you}}} may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through {{{faith and perseverance}}} inherited the promises.

And so, God has elected, by his grace, to save all those who believe in His Son, not by the works of the Law.

Paul tells us that God's treatment of Esau was not based on what Esau wanted or did.

Once again, that is not what Paul wrote. He wrote that “BEFORE they did anything good or bad.” That does not mean God did not have foreknowledge of both Jacob and Esau before they did anything good or bad.

Yes, God orchestrated events to bring about His plan of salvation, all the way up the chain to Lord Jesus, but the Scriptures do not teach that God created Jacob’s and Esau’s choices.

How does God orchestrate events without creating choices? Think about it.

God knows the beginning to the end because God is omniscient; otherwise God could not prophesy through the prophets. And so, God can also enter time and change events as He chooses, or change his mind of what he intended based on our repentance, or answer prayers, or intervene, or do miracles. We have the ability to make our own choices because God is an awesome God, and we were created in His image (Genesis 1:27; Romans 2:14-16).

CadyandZoe said: By faith doesn't mean "because of faith."

setst777 said: Lord Jesus said that the Father loves us {{{“because”}}} we “love” Lord Jesus, and “because” we have believed – so that settles it; your entire position fails.

John 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, {{{because}}} you have loved me, and have believed that I came from God.

Why does the Father love us? Not because God created us to love and believe in Lord Jesus, but God loves us because we love and believe in him. So, your doctrine falls.

When the Bible speaks about God's love, it refers to what he does, not how he feels. When it says that God loved Jacob, it means that God worked to Jacob's benefit. When it says that God hated Esau, it means that God worked everything against Esau. And Paul says, God decided to work everything to Jacob's benefit before Jacob was born and he decided to work against Esau before he was born.

That is really blasphemous. God is the origin of Love, God is Love, the Spirit of God radiates the Love of God in our hearts, the commandments of God are founded in Love, God sending His Son to die for us reveals God’s love, Lord Jesus demonstrated God’s love while on earth. You don’t know the God of the Bible.

1 John 4:8 (WEB) He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ Romans 9 ►

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Concern for the Jews 1I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit. 2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise!a Amen. God’s Sovereign Choice (Genesis 25:19–28; Malachi 1:1–5) 6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c 10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”i 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”j 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth thoroughly and decisively.”k 29It is just as Isaiah foretold: “Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have resembled Gomorrah.”l Israel’s Unbelief 30What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense;m and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”n

 

[Ritajanice]

As God’s word says below.

We have been Born Again ,not of perishable seed, which means what please someone?

But of imperishable seed, which means what please?

Through the Living and enduring word of God....which is His Living Spirit, there is no other way that we can receive the Spiritual rebirth, except through His “Living “ word...as His word says below.

​

◄ Hebrews 4:12 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. New Living Translation For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. English Standard Version For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Berean Standard Bible For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Berean Literal Bible For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrows, and able to judge thethoughts and intentions of the heart.

​

◄ 1 Peter 1:23 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. Berean Literal Bible having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ Isaiah 55:11 ►

Audio Crossref Comm Hebrew Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. New Living Translation It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it. English Standard Version so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Berean Standard Bible so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it

 

[APAK]

Here's a diagram I quickly generated to show what and who is involved in causing a human being to decide for God or not in their life. Either adhering to God's constant holy calling or not, to either decide on salvation or not. It's purely God's domain to choose or not to choose a human being for salvation, based on his foreknowledge or his/her decision to genuinely repent of their sins in their life IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD. And this is the real key to it all, God is needed to kickstart the entire human decision process for salvation.

---------------------------------------------


Blessings to all who decide on the true message of truth or the gospel, given directly by God or via one of his instruments or other means to bring this good news into our hearts on fertile soil...Amen

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not according to the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:2-5)

The Apostle Paul is often misunderstood. Some argue that "by faith" means "because of faith" and that "faith" is our part necessary for justification. This is different from what Paul actually taught.

To see what I mean, we need to review a bit more of Romans chapter 4. In that context, Paul quotes Psalm 32:1-2. but for some reason, he didn't quote the entire verse. "How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

An honest and contrite heart is essential. The blessed man has inner qualities that mark him as justified. He is honest, and in him there is no deceit. Jesus asserts that an honest and good heart will persevere even under trial (Luke 8:15). Paul argues that we boast in a proven faith because we know that it will endure and our hope will not disappoint. (Romans 5:1-5) And Peter argues that those of us who have been born again to a living hope will be glorified at the return of Jesus Christ. James argues the same thing, telling his readers that those with a proven faith will be granted the crown of life.

Paul reminds his readers that salvation depends on the activity of the Spirit and our being given a new spirit in Romans 8

Romans 8:9-11

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

The essential characteristic of those whom God will grant eternal life is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit will raise from the dead all those who have been given the spirit of Christ. This is a true statement. None of those who have been given the spirit of Christ will be lost. Period.

God chooses to form a vase for blessing or punishment, and noble or ignoble purpose, depending on how the “clay” (a person or nation) responds in His hands.

Maybe. I don't think that is what the Jeremiah passage indicates. But Paul's potter analogy stands on its own and has a different meaning.

God has a right to explain His actions, and not be silenced.

Well, two things here. First, according to the Book of Job, God doesn't explain his actions. Secondly, Paul isn't talking about God's right to explain his actions. He is talking about God's right to bless or curse someone before they have done anything good or bad.

I have known more than a few Calvinists that teach this. However, when they use the word “for-caused” they do not mean that God forces anyone; rather, that God is the First-Cause, the Creator, by which all other things must occur as God planned. Nothing happens without The Source/Cause. That is what I understand. I recently debated a Calvinist who adamantly defended the definition of “foreknow” to mean “for-cause.”

Aristotle taught that God was the First Cause. And many Christian theologians read the Bible through Aristotle's philosophical lenses. But Paul is not an Aristotelian. He is/was a Hebrew and he believed as John the Apostle believed that God is the cause of everything. He is the first cause, the second cause, third, fourth, and fifth cause.

Nonetheless, the term "foreknow" doesn't mean "look ahead in time." It means, "have a prior relationship with."

I will say this though, you also define God as the one who “causes,” which is what “for-caused” means:

Not the way I mean "cause."