Where does the Pope get his authority?

[RedFan]

Were the angels who appeared to God’s servants in human form, duping them too? God sent them after all….so why did they appear as completely human, able to eat and drink?

I presume that those angels appeared other than in human form so that they could better communicate to their audience, even though they actually possessed no flesh and blood bodies. Call it duping if you wish.

 

[Augustin56]

So, according to you then, the Sabbath is a man made doctrine and Sunday sacredness received in the "deposit of faith" from Christ?
And earning salvation by drawing on the merits of the saints (presumably through the Vatican bank) is also a part of the deposit of faith then seeing it isn't actually in scripture.
In other words, anything Catholics believe as doctrine, if not in scripture, comes from this deposit of faith. Even the deposit of faith itself comes from the deposit of faith right? And i you don't see how dodgy that is?

It's not dodgy at all. The key here is that Scripture says that NOT everything Christ did and taught is IN Scripture. (See John 21:25) However, Christ told the Apostles to teach "ALL" that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) So, if everything is to be taught, but is not in Scripture, where's the part that's not in Scripture, but must be taught? It's in Oral Tradition (aka, Holy Tradition), the oral teachings of Christ taught to the Apostles and handed down to their successors, the bishops for 2000 years now (give or take). (See 2 Thes. 2:15)

 

[RedFan]

It's not dodgy at all. The key here is that Scripture says that NOT everything Christ did and taught is IN Scripture. (See John 21:25) However, Christ told the Apostles to teach "ALL" that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) So, if everything is to be taught, but is not in Scripture, where's the part that's not in Scripture, but must be taught? It's in Oral Tradition (aka, Holy Tradition), the oral teachings of Christ taught to the Apostles and handed down to their successors, the bishops for 2000 years now (give or take). (See 2 Thes. 2:15)

I agree. I write separately only to stress how unfortunate it is that you were compelled to add "Scripture says" to the argument. It should be obvious to any right-thinking person that not everything Christ did and taught is found in Scripture. That you needed to add, for the benefit of the "sola scriptura" crowd, that John 21:25 confirms this obvious fact is a sad commentary on that crowd.

 

[Marymog]

"If ye love Me, keep My commandments". ", In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine there precepts of men".

If you were following scripture, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Opinion? Everything you don't like you deduce is opinion. You have no appreciation of the size of the Assyrian church. On a global scale, it dwarfed Rome. The church councils that were held there every 5 years or so brought bishops from China, India, Syria, Africa, Asia minor, Afghanistan, Mongolia. And it didn't have to use armies to make converts... Enforcing doctrine.. So, not opinion, history. Happy to give more detail of you are interested, but it would be off topic. The point I was making is the Rome was not the only shop in town, that the church Jesus established was not confined to just one city, nor for Her appoint one man as head over His people. He was, and still is, the Head of the church. Not that counterfeit usurper that sits on a great white throne with 2 angels either side and 4 living creatures round about, pretending he is God.
If Jesus is the most important person in your life, and I'm not doubting what you say, them you don't need to be surrendering your spiritual integrity and independence to sinful mortal men who themselves do not know Jesus.

Brakelite.....can you PLEASE address the passages I provided??? John 14:15 and Matthew 15:9 have NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. Keeping His commandments has NOTHING to do with the 8 passages I provided about obeying those that rule over you. Jesus being head of the Church has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. I already destroyed that opinion with Scripture (Luke 10:16 and Council at Jerusalem). Just because Jesus is the head of The Church doesn't mean that the Apostles didn't rule over Jesus disciples after he ascended into heaven. Do you REALLY not understand that???????????? You keep going off on these rambling opinions about the Assyrian Church and other rabbit trails that do not address the FACT that you are not adhering to what is clearly written in Scripture......

Never mind. I can't do this anymore. Waste of time......Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Marymog]

Oh, please! How sad!
You forgot the rest of what Jesus said: “all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.”
— Matt. 26:52

BTW, we (JW’s) are not pacifists; I’d protect my family to the best of my ability. I’d get us all, out of harm’s way, that would be my first option.

You know, that’s not even what we’re talking about: I would not & will not train or in some way engage in warfare!

This is your second attempt to rationalize such actions, which is really disregarding Jesus’ commands. In fact, omitting His words in order to justify what in essence is worldly thinking.

Your responses condone disobeying Christ’s command to love.
Where is your faith in God’s ability to protect His obedient servants? That’s rhetorical…. I’m done.

Oh goodness THC.....sooooo your Scriptural evidence that nullifies Jesus telling his disciples to buy a sword and approving them of buying swords is Matthew 26:52? Does Matthew 26:52 tell them NOT to defend themselves or not to buy swords? Does Matthew 26:52 condemn the use of a sword? The answer to both questions is NO!! You look at one passage from Scripture, Christs command to love, and ignore his other command, one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.

Look at it this way: Loving the soldier who just invaded your country and is raising the gun in their hand and aiming it at your child and/or your spouse, is not going to stop them. Once they kill them, you are next. Once they kill you, your neighbor is next. Once they kill all your neighbors they move to the next town and do it all again. Well, in all the towns with JW's in them. Once they come to a town that adheres to ALL of Scripture, then WE start fighting back and save any JW's that might still be left.

I know you won't train or engage in warfare. You have the luxury of other men doing that to save you, your family, your neighborhood, your town, your State, your Country. Sit back. Relax THC. Be Desmond Doss and save the fighting soldiers so they can go back into battle and kill the men who are trying to kill you. I mean Doss didn't kill anyone. He just saved the men who were doing the killing so they could kill later. Nothing wrong with that.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Marymog]

Yes, that is what I was taught as a child. Leave your brain at the door, don't think for yourself, you must obey only us, as we are your superiors. And you accuse me of cherry picking. Guess what. You go to a cherry tree for cherries. Not leaves or branches. One cherry from God's word is Truth. But you are also right that we should take all of scripture into account to make sure we are not mistaken...
KJV Luke 22:25-26
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

KJV Jeremiah 17:5
5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Your church departed from Jesus the moment it embraced emperors, kings, queens, and politicians for their aid and assistance in growing and establishing doctrine. You are right and very poignantly said, quote..."a Church with CLEAR authority led by men who enforce that authority." The moment your church united with the state, she became divorced and apostate. The moment religion became something to be forced, liberty of conscience became an endangered species, and those who chose to follow scripture as opposed to the Roman church, became targets. You are right. You are not going to convince me to follow men who do not follow Christ.
.

Oh goodness Brakelite. Luke 22 has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Scripture LITERALLY SAYS "you must obey only us (the appointed elders of The Church)" yet you say you won't obey them. I have given MULTIPLE PASSAGES from Scripture that show that.........Never mind.

You are wearing me out. I can't go on. Go and read Scripture, interpret it and believe what you have taught yourself. I mean after all, 2 Peter 3:16 doesn't apply to YOU. It applies to everyone else.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Marymog]

That's scary. I'm glad your "leader men" didn't tell you that a spaceship was coming to take you to Valhalla. Just think. People are dead becaused they trusted Jim Jones as their "church leader". Then there are those many terrible Popes that, at times, led the Catholic Church. I hear the Word of God by reading the Scriptures. I respect that the pastor of my church is the leader of his church, but I only digest his word when it is validated by Scriptures. Peace and love.

You crack me up adrift. You don't even realize that what I wrote is from Scripture.....and you call it "scary".

 

[Adrift]

You crack me up adrift. You don't even realize that what I wrote is from Scripture.....and you call it "scary".

The Catholic interpretation of scripture is beyond scary. To suggest the mindless following of anyone proclaimimg to be your leader is crazy. Jim Jones was the mass murderer who led the Peoples Temple Church between 1955 and 1978. In what he termed "revolutionary suicide", Jones and the members of his inner circle planned and orchestrated a mass murder-suicide in his remote jungle commune at Jonestown, Huyana on November 18, 1978.

 

[Augustin56]

The Catholic interpretation of scripture is beyond scary. To suggest the mindless following of anyone proclaimimg to be your leader is crazy. Jim Jones was the mass murderer who led the Peoples Temple Church between 1955 and 1978. In what he termed "revolutionary suicide", Jones and the members of his inner circle planned and orchestrated a mass murder-suicide in his remote jungle commune at Jonestown, Huyana on November 18, 1978.

It is indeed scary if you don't agree with it, because it means you are in error.

True faith, however, is never mindless. It is not credulity (believe it because I tell you). True faith must have reason to believe. Once reason has done all it can, then true faith steps in. Reason and true faith are never at odds.

The Catholic Church's reasons for teaching and believing are solidly based on the understanding that the Apostles and the Early Christians had. Not something made up 16 centuries or later.

 

[Augustin56]

I agree. I write separately only to stress how unfortunate it is that you were compelled to add "Scripture says" to the argument. It should be obvious to any right-thinking person that not everything Christ did and taught is found in Scripture. That you needed to add, for the benefit of the "sola scriptura" crowd, that John 21:25 confirms this obvious fact is a sad commentary on that crowd.

I worry that some of them are actually into bibliolatry (worship of the Bible), rather than Christ. They refuse to worship as Christ recommended, through the Church He founded and gave His authority, insisting, instead, on reinventing the theological wheel themselves through personal interpretation of Scripture. Then, they are blinded to the fact that there are literally 10's of 1000's of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations founded by personal interpretation of Scripture. The only unifying principle in Protestantism is anti-Catholicism. None of them agree on what Scripture, as a whole, says. If there was one Protestant denomination, all believing the same thing, they might have a basis for their beliefs in Sola Scriptura.

 

[Marymog]

The Catholic interpretation of scripture is beyond scary. To suggest the mindless following of anyone proclaimimg to be your leader is crazy. Jim Jones was the mass murderer who led the Peoples Temple Church between 1955 and 1978. In what he termed "revolutionary suicide", Jones and the members of his inner circle planned and orchestrated a mass murder-suicide in his remote jungle commune at Jonestown, Huyana on November 18, 1978.

Lol....Adrift, I didn't provide an "interpretation of scripture". I summarized several passages from Scripture, and you called them scary. Why does Scripture scare you?

You crack me up.........

 

[Adrift]

Lol....Adrift, I didn't provide an "interpretation of scripture". I summarized several passages from Scripture, and you called them scary. Why does Scripture scare you?

You crack me up.........

You "summarized" passages. That's rich. You crack me up too.

 

[Aunty Jane]

your Scriptural evidence that nullifies Jesus telling his disciples to buy a sword and approving them of buying swords is Matthew 26:52? Does Matthew 26:52 tell them NOT to defend themselves or not to buy swords? Does Matthew 26:52 condemn the use of a sword? The answer to both questions is NO!! You look at one passage from Scripture, Christs command to love, and ignore his other command, one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.

Whoa….I just couldn’t let this go…..
Picture this…..Jesus is about to be arrested by an armed mob and he has told his apostles to sell things to buy swords…just 2 were “enough”…..you seriously think 2 swords against an armed mob are going to make any kind of impact?
This was prophesy being fulfilled because when Peter drew his sword and cut off a man’s ear, Jesus rebuked him and told him to “return the sword to its place”. Sooooo….why did they have swords now, when they had never been armed during Jesus’ entire ministry?
It was to demonstrate that they were not violent and even though they had weapons, they would not use them. Jesus healed the man and willingly submitted to his arrest as it was all prophesied to take place this way. The lesson was “those who take up the sword will perish by the sword”….substitute any weapon there and it has the same meaning. American gun laws are so ingrained in their psyche that they never got that memo…..gun related deaths in the US exceed any other civilized nation by a large margin.

Look at it this way: Loving the soldier who just invaded your country and is raising the gun in their hand and aiming it at your child and/or your spouse, is not going to stop them. Once they kill them, you are next. Once they kill you, your neighbor is next. Once they kill all your neighbors they move to the next town and do it all again. Well, in all the towns with JW's in them. Once they come to a town that adheres to ALL of Scripture, then WE start fighting back and save any JW's that might still be left.

And yet this is what the first Christians experienced….the Romans used them as entertainment sending them into an arena to be torn apart by wild animals…..yet they could walk free, simply by putting a pinch of incense on an alter as an act of worship to the Emperor…..they could have saved themselves and their children, but they refused to disobey their God, and were martyred. God will reward their courage and obedience.

We are to be “no part of the world”, so we have no part in serving any government by breaking God’s law on the sanctity of life. We are not authorized by God to take human life by serving in the military who will train us to do what God says we must not.……ancient Israel acted as God’s executioners…..defending the land that God had given them. No land we have today is God-given…..most are stolen from their original inhabitants with much bloodshed.

If we have blood on our hands, God will turn away from us. (Isa 1:15)

I know you won't train or engage in warfare. You have the luxury of other men doing that to save you, your family, your neighborhood, your town, your State, your Country. Sit back. Relax

What the world does has nothing to do with us…the nations have always fought their wars……but, as Christians “we obey God as ruler rather than men” because no man has the right to tell us to do what God condemns. The wars of the nations affect us like they do anyone else, but we will not participate in them. We will go to prison rather than disobey our God. We will not support the war effort in any way because that makes us complicit in their bloodshed.

Those who confuse patriotism with their Christianity will soon find out that they are diametrically opposed to each other, not in harmony at all.

Be Desmond Doss and save the fighting soldiers so they can go back into battle and kill the men who are trying to kill you. I mean Doss didn't kill anyone. He just saved the men who were doing the killing so they could kill later. Nothing wrong with that.

Being “NO PART OF THE WORLD” means exactly what it says… (John 17:16)…we follow Jesus’ example…..we do not interfere with its politics or its conflicts because our citizenship is in God’s Kingdom, not any man’s. The reasons for their bloodshed is none of our business. The world will do what the world under Satan’s influence has always done…..demonstrating by their actions who is leading them. (1 John 5:19)

We choose who we will obey, and it’s obvious that those who call themselves “Christians” who train to kill people whom they call their enemies are opposed by people who think the exact same way, and who perhaps even belong to the very same religion…..so is killing your “brother” of a different nation something God would sanction?
1 John 4:20-21….
”If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

Can you love your brother or your enemy with a weapon? (Matt 5:43-44)

How can we love our enemies?
Romans 12:17-21…
”Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

We hand it all over to God because he is in control of everything…….What happens when you conquer evil with evil? No one really wins, because disobedience to God is always a defeat.

I never cease to be amazed at how twisted your beliefs are…..not Christlike at all…

 

[The Learner]

not keeping up ahhh

 

[The Learner]

jumped to here

 

[Brakelite]

Keeping His commandments has NOTHING to do with the 8 passages I provided about obeying those that rule over you.

It has everything to do with it when those who claim authority don't keep Jesus commandments. Everything.

 

[Brakelite]

The key here is that Scripture says that NOT everything Christ did and taught is IN Scripture. (See John 21:25) However, Christ told the Apostles to teach "ALL" that He had taught them.

That's just clever word play. Why do you have to resort to forms of deception in order to make your point?
Yes, John said that there wouldn't be enough books to contain everything Jesus did. It says nothing about teaching. John is talking about the wonderful works, miracles, acts of love and kindness, not doctrine, teaching, or dogma.
And yes, Jesus said
KJV Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now listen carefully. Did the apostles do that? Yes they did. Not only that, but after Jesus left they wrote down everything the holy Spirit inspired them to. Did their students teach everything? Some. Did the students of the students teach everything? Not so much. It wasn't long before the Roman church was no longer the church that Jesus began. Tradition did take the place of scripture. It didn't supplement scripture, or fill in the gaps, but in many instances completely superimposed itself over scripture, and mortal error-prone men assisted in that process. And that is exactly how Sunday sacredness replaced Sabbath keeping. Not by any teaching of Jesus, not by any of the Apostles either written or in word because all of them practised Sabbath keeping until the day they died, and for several centuries Christians in various parts of the world followed their example. They weren't heretics, they were walking as Jesus walked. As Paul walked. And the churches they started continued in that tradition, a tradition that is biblical, not pagan. And many other doctrines that Jesus declared would be vain worship, were introduced into Catholicism along with the thousands of unconverted pagans that found Roman Christianity so agreeable as to not demand repentance. Hence why there are so many syncretistic religions in Catholic countries. Hard to tell whether they are more pagan or more Christian.
A system that pretends to have a succession of infallibility can teach anything it likes, even in contradiction to scripture, and feel totally justified.

 

[Brakelite]

Scripture LITERALLY SAYS "you must obey only us (the appointed elders of The Church)" yet you say you won't obey them

You are typical of many Catholics here in that you misrepresent what others say to you. It's a form of deception, lying, in order to make a point. You are out of order.
Jesus doesn't expect anyone to obey leaders who are in open hostility with Him in spiritual matters. Yes, we are to obey secular rulers so long as they don't impose their authority into the spiritual realm. We are to obey our church leaders so long as they themselves are submitted to Christ, and teach the truth. Paul could honestly require his church to obey him without pride or contradiction, because what he taught and what he practised was biblical. I cannot say the same for the priests, the bishops, and the Popes of Rome. Nor can I say such for the institution itself considering she embraces and has embraced in the past, forgeries and counterfeits and myths and fables, and she does this wholeheartedly if she can see an advantage in doing do. That is not Christianity. And it isn't too be trusted.

 

[RedFan]

Paul could honestly require his church to obey him without pride or contradiction, because what he taught and what he practised was biblical.

Is there a way to verify this claim without reference to any of Paul's writings themselves?

 

[Brakelite]

Is there a way to verify this claim without reference to any of Paul's writings themselves?

That's an interesting question. Do we need verification?