Hell Is God's Mercy

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aspen

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Hell, I would like to suggest, is evidence not so much of God's justice - though partly that - but rather of His mercy. One might, in fact, complain that God was cruel if Hell did not exist. I realize that may sound difficult, but if you will follow along, I will attempt to make that case as best I can.

First of all, think of the Israelites' encounter with God on Mt. Sinai, how God revealed Himself in fire, as He did earlier - in some manner or another - with Moses at the burning bush (Ex. 3:2,3). The mountain, we are told in Exodus 19:18, "was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire" and "the smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace."

Later, while Moses was atop Mt. Sinai (Ex. 33:19-23) he asked God to "show me your glory." God consented, but warned him that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." So God shielded Moses in a cleft of the rock and also covered him with His hand while He passed by. This passage graphically illustrates Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29, which say that God "is a consuming fire."

Consider also the Mount of Transfiguration, where the face of our Lord shown like the sun (Mat. 17:2), and Saul's encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascas (Acts 9:3,8), where he was struck down, blinded by a blazing light that physically affected his eyes.

Such passages make me think that it is a very good thing indeed that we now see "but a poor reflection," as Paul writes in I Cor. 13:12. In fact, I can easily understand why someone would not want to see God "face to face," as Paul says later in the same verse.

But this heavenly vision of fire and brilliance doesn't go away. It appears again and again. In Second Thessalonians 1:7 we read that the Lord Jesus will be revealed in "blazing fire" on the Day of Judgement. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul writes that God dwells in "unapproachable light." In Revelation 1:16 John writes that he saw the face of Jesus like the sun "shining in its strength." And in Revelation 21:23 he writes that the glory of God illuminates the new Jerusalem. Also, there are angels with faces like the sun and legs like pillars of fire (Rev. 10:1), and in Heaven we find a sea of fire and glass (Rev. 15:2). Then, in Matthew 13:43 the Lord says that "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." If mere believers and angels shine like the sun, what dim and insignificant suns they must be when compared with the blazing, glorious sun that is God Himself.

Clearly, for some, this is not an inviting vision. But it is coming. Jesus promised a day of judgement (Matt. 25:31-46).

For those who love the Lord, who are shining as brightly as suns, who have been prepared for this experience by the forgiving grace of Jesus, who wear the proper wedding clothes, that day will be a time of great joy (Matt. 25:210). A wedding feast (Matt. 22:1-13). A meeting with the saints of old (Matt. 8:11, Lk. 16:22). It will be a face-to-face encounter (I Cor. 13:12) with the One whom their hearts have always longed for, and the glory of God will be welcoming and warm and beautiful and loving, like the fresh dawning of a new spring day.

But this same glory will also be revealed to the ungodly, and for these it will be like flames of fire, burning and agonizing (Rev. 20:14-15). The beauty and glory of God which is perfume to believers is, as Paul writes, the stench of death to unbelievers (2 Cor. 2:15-16). The glory of God - blazing like ten thousand suns - will be unendurable to those who are not prepared for His presence.

Perhaps, then, God could simply not reveal himself to the ungodly. But in that case they could go on denying Him for eternity, and God is just and will not permit any lie to endure forever. But He is also merciful, and those who are not prepared to stand directly in His presence, those who do not have on the wedding garments, those who do not love and desire Him, will be cast into the outer darkness (Matt. 8:12). And they will need no urging to go!

Though God's glory is pervasive (Ps. 139:7-8), and though He will no longer let them deceive themselves, He will mercifully shield them from full exposure to Himself, though what exposure they do experience will be to them like a lake of fire (Rev. 21:8).

Then, just as the rich man in Jesus' parable (Lk. 16:23) could look far back toward heaven and see Lazarus, and as, perhaps, those cast out of the wedding hall into the outer darkness could see something of the wedding feast through the windows, so also may those in Hell be able to look back at the saints of God, appearing for all the world like blazing suns, singing and enjoying themselves in the midst of what appears to those in Hell to be a divine inferno. And though they will know well that they could have been there enjoying God's presence, what they see will be as enticing to them as an invitation to join Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the firey furnace (Dan. 3). And seeing this, they will, perhaps, flee even further from heaven.

But suppose a believer from Heaven was to journey to Hell, which - if I understand the parable of Lazarus and the rich man - he could not do (Perhaps because he himself would be blazing so brightly), but if he could, he would feel cold and chilled and would see just the barest hint of light, the distant and filtered glory of God, like a dim star, and he would not understand how that dull glow could cause pain. And he would long to return to the warmth of God's presence.

Finally, if those in Hell were to ask how long it will endure, it seems that it must last as long as God remains glorious.
 

amadeus

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Hell, I would like to suggest, is evidence not so much of God's justice - though partly that - but rather of His mercy. One might, in fact, complain that God was cruel if Hell did not exist. I realize that may sound difficult, but if you will follow along, I will attempt to make that case as best I can.

Maybe the only hell is the hell that each of us faces every day that he lives here in this corruptiple body of flesh. Then, for those who do not for whatever reason please God, God is still merciful in that He lets and end come to their daily miseries and they finally rest in peace in the hell, which is the natural grave.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5


aspen: First of all, think of the Israelites' encounter with God on Mt. Sinai, how God revealed Himself in fire, as He did earlier - in some manner or another - with Moses at the burning bush (Ex. 3:2,3). The mountain, we are told in Exodus 19:18, "was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire" and "the smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace."

Later, while Moses was atop Mt. Sinai (Ex. 33:19-23) he asked God to "show me your glory." God consented, but warned him that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." So God shielded Moses in a cleft of the rock and also covered him with His hand while He passed by. This passage graphically illustrates Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29, which say that God "is a consuming fire."

Yes, but the face of God will not always be unviewable to those who love Him! When we have been properly cleansed and are wearing the "proper garments" we will be able to arrive where David wanted to be:

"How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?" Psalm 13:1

"Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD will I seek .

Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." Psalm 27:7-9

When we are able to see His face, then will His consuming fire be a pleasantly wamth hearth that we will be able to embrace as we might have embraced our natural fathers. For those who dies in their sins, the consuming fire would still be there to devour them as it mercifully devoured the soldiers who carried the three Hebrews supposedly to their doom at the command of Nebuchadnezzar.


aspen: Consider also the Mount of Transfiguration, where the face of our Lord shown like the sun (Mat. 17:2), and Saul's encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascas (Acts 9:3,8), where he was struck down, blinded by a blazing light that physically affected his eyes.

Such passages make me think that it is a very good thing indeed that we now see "but a poor reflection," as Paul writes in I Cor. 13:12. In fact, I can easily understand why someone would not want to see God "face to face," as Paul says later in the same verse.

But this heavenly vision of fire and brilliance doesn't go away. It appears again and again. In Second Thessalonians 1:7 we read that the Lord Jesus will be revealed in "blazing fire" on the Day of Judgement. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul writes that God dwells in "unapproachable light." In Revelation 1:16 John writes that he saw the face of Jesus like the sun "shining in its strength." And in Revelation 21:23 he writes that the glory of God illuminates the new Jerusalem. Also, there are angels with faces like the sun and legs like pillars of fire (Rev. 10:1), and in Heaven we find a sea of fire and glass (Rev. 15:2). Then, in Matthew 13:43 the Lord says that "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." If mere believers and angels shine like the sun, what dim and insignificant suns they must be when compared with the blazing, glorious sun that is God Himself.

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Prov 29:18

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see:

The blind receive their sight ... "Matt 11:4-5

But... those who remain blind will not forever stumble around in their darkness. Is it not God's mercy, which allows them to die so that their then emptied minds will suffer no more?
aspen: Clearly, for some, this is not an inviting vision. But it is coming. Jesus promised a day of judgement (Matt. 25:31-46).

For those who love the Lord, who are shining as brightly as suns, who have been prepared for this experience by the forgiving grace of Jesus, who wear the proper wedding clothes, that day will be a time of great joy (Matt. 25:210). A wedding feast (Matt. 22:1-13). A meeting with the saints of old (Matt. 8:11, Lk. 16:22). It will be a face-to-face encounter (I Cor. 13:12) with the One whom their hearts have always longed for, and the glory of God will be welcoming and warm and beautiful and loving, like the fresh dawning of a new spring day.

But this same glory will also be revealed to the ungodly, and for these it will be like flames of fire, burning and agonizing (Rev. 20:14-15). The beauty and glory of God which is perfume to believers is, as Paul writes, the stench of death to unbelievers (2 Cor. 2:15-16). The glory of God - blazing like ten thousand suns - will be unendurable to those who are not prepared for His presence.

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26
 

WhiteKnuckle

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I have no opinion on this subject. However, it's an interesting topic.

As mentioned before I heard Hank Hanegraaff talk about this on his radio show. I thought this would be benifitial to the conversation.

From his blog. http://hankhanegraaff.blogspot.com/2007/10/existence-of-hell.html

Secondly, I believe that the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell there's no choice, and without choice heaven would not be heaven, heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distancing yourself from God only in the end to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity! The alternative to hell is worse than hell itself in that it is taking humans who are made in the image of God and stripping them of freedom and forcing them to worship God against their wills.
 

Duckybill

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Hell is not God's mercy. Hell is the end of God's mercy for those who spend eternity there.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Hell is not God's mercy. Hell is the end of God's mercy for those who spend eternity there.

Ever been grounded when you were a kid? I could imagine being stuck in Heaven with a God and people that you hate to feel the same way. Then again, If Hell is not eternal torment and just someone dying and then being like they never existed, I can see that as mercy.

So, not to bring back the subject of eternal torment vs eternal dead,,,, I think it kind of seems to go along those lines. Being on fire for ever seems absolutely worse than anything imaginable, it does seem better that you'd be miserable in Heaven if you didn't want to be there.

We can see this example of demons, they know heaven, they have seen it, and they know their eternal demise is inevitable. Yet they persist. They gave up their places in Heaven for a place in hell. Then again we don't know if Hell existed prior to the rebellion. We do know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Hell to me right now seems more of eternal punishment rather than mercy. I dont' consider hell as God's wrath, Wrath seems to come for the good of someone either the one experiencing wrath or the one viewing another experiencing the wrath. To me that's mercy.

So, hell is a final judgement where there is no way out, it's eternal and that's it.
 

Selene

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Hell, I would like to suggest, is evidence not so much of God's justice - though partly that - but rather of His mercy. One might, in fact, complain that God was cruel if Hell did not exist. I realize that may sound difficult, but if you will follow along, I will attempt to make that case as best I can.

First of all, think of the Israelites' encounter with God on Mt. Sinai, how God revealed Himself in fire, as He did earlier - in some manner or another - with Moses at the burning bush (Ex. 3:2,3). The mountain, we are told in Exodus 19:18, "was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire" and "the smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace."

Later, while Moses was atop Mt. Sinai (Ex. 33:19-23) he asked God to "show me your glory." God consented, but warned him that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." So God shielded Moses in a cleft of the rock and also covered him with His hand while He passed by. This passage graphically illustrates Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29, which say that God "is a consuming fire."

Consider also the Mount of Transfiguration, where the face of our Lord shown like the sun (Mat. 17:2), and Saul's encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascas (Acts 9:3,8), where he was struck down, blinded by a blazing light that physically affected his eyes.

Such passages make me think that it is a very good thing indeed that we now see "but a poor reflection," as Paul writes in I Cor. 13:12. In fact, I can easily understand why someone would not want to see God "face to face," as Paul says later in the same verse.

But this heavenly vision of fire and brilliance doesn't go away. It appears again and again. In Second Thessalonians 1:7 we read that the Lord Jesus will be revealed in "blazing fire" on the Day of Judgement. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul writes that God dwells in "unapproachable light." In Revelation 1:16 John writes that he saw the face of Jesus like the sun "shining in its strength." And in Revelation 21:23 he writes that the glory of God illuminates the new Jerusalem. Also, there are angels with faces like the sun and legs like pillars of fire (Rev. 10:1), and in Heaven we find a sea of fire and glass (Rev. 15:2). Then, in Matthew 13:43 the Lord says that "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." If mere believers and angels shine like the sun, what dim and insignificant suns they must be when compared with the blazing, glorious sun that is God Himself.

Clearly, for some, this is not an inviting vision. But it is coming. Jesus promised a day of judgement (Matt. 25:31-46).

For those who love the Lord, who are shining as brightly as suns, who have been prepared for this experience by the forgiving grace of Jesus, who wear the proper wedding clothes, that day will be a time of great joy (Matt. 25:210). A wedding feast (Matt. 22:1-13). A meeting with the saints of old (Matt. 8:11, Lk. 16:22). It will be a face-to-face encounter (I Cor. 13:12) with the One whom their hearts have always longed for, and the glory of God will be welcoming and warm and beautiful and loving, like the fresh dawning of a new spring day.

But this same glory will also be revealed to the ungodly, and for these it will be like flames of fire, burning and agonizing (Rev. 20:14-15). The beauty and glory of God which is perfume to believers is, as Paul writes, the stench of death to unbelievers (2 Cor. 2:15-16). The glory of God - blazing like ten thousand suns - will be unendurable to those who are not prepared for His presence.

Perhaps, then, God could simply not reveal himself to the ungodly. But in that case they could go on denying Him for eternity, and God is just and will not permit any lie to endure forever. But He is also merciful, and those who are not prepared to stand directly in His presence, those who do not have on the wedding garments, those who do not love and desire Him, will be cast into the outer darkness (Matt. 8:12). And they will need no urging to go!

Though God's glory is pervasive (Ps. 139:7-8), and though He will no longer let them deceive themselves, He will mercifully shield them from full exposure to Himself, though what exposure they do experience will be to them like a lake of fire (Rev. 21:8).

Then, just as the rich man in Jesus' parable (Lk. 16:23) could look far back toward heaven and see Lazarus, and as, perhaps, those cast out of the wedding hall into the outer darkness could see something of the wedding feast through the windows, so also may those in Hell be able to look back at the saints of God, appearing for all the world like blazing suns, singing and enjoying themselves in the midst of what appears to those in Hell to be a divine inferno. And though they will know well that they could have been there enjoying God's presence, what they see will be as enticing to them as an invitation to join Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the firey furnace (Dan. 3). And seeing this, they will, perhaps, flee even further from heaven.

But suppose a believer from Heaven was to journey to Hell, which - if I understand the parable of Lazarus and the rich man - he could not do (Perhaps because he himself would be blazing so brightly), but if he could, he would feel cold and chilled and would see just the barest hint of light, the distant and filtered glory of God, like a dim star, and he would not understand how that dull glow could cause pain. And he would long to return to the warmth of God's presence.

Finally, if those in Hell were to ask how long it will endure, it seems that it must last as long as God remains glorious.

Hello Aspen,

Is this your own interpretation of Hell? I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is God's mercy and Hell is separation from God.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Nomad

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Hello Aspen,

Is this your own interpretation of Hell? I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is God's mercy and Hell is separation from God.

In Christ,
Selene


Well you don't recognize Aspen's 'interpretation' as RC teaching because it's not.


1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."[sup]612[/sup] Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.[sup]613[/sup] To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[sup]614[/sup] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[sup]615[/sup] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[sup]616[/sup]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[sup]617[/sup] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."[sup]618[/sup]



Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Catechism of the Catholic Church
 

Selene

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Ever been grounded when you were a kid? I could imagine being stuck in Heaven with a God and people that you hate to feel the same way. Then again, If Hell is not eternal torment and just someone dying and then being like they never existed, I can see that as mercy.

So, not to bring back the subject of eternal torment vs eternal dead,,,, I think it kind of seems to go along those lines. Being on fire for ever seems absolutely worse than anything imaginable, it does seem better that you'd be miserable in Heaven if you didn't want to be there.

We can see this example of demons, they know heaven, they have seen it, and they know their eternal demise is inevitable. Yet they persist. They gave up their places in Heaven for a place in hell. Then again we don't know if Hell existed prior to the rebellion. We do know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Hell to me right now seems more of eternal punishment rather than mercy. I dont' consider hell as God's wrath, Wrath seems to come for the good of someone either the one experiencing wrath or the one viewing another experiencing the wrath. To me that's mercy.

So, hell is a final judgement where there is no way out, it's eternal and that's it.


According to the Bible, Hell was created for the fallen angels (See Matthew 25:41). I assumed by that that it was created after Lucifer fell. Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven because He was warning us to avoid Hell. According to Pope John Paul II, Hell is not a place of fiery torment. It is a state of being separated from God. The pain that one feels in Hell is not one of torture, but one of being separated from God, who is the source of all happiness, joy, and peace.

Hell is not God's wrath. It was made for the fallen angels because they rejected God. A fallen angel cannot be redeemed. Once an angel turns against God or fall from grace, the angel condemns himself/herself and can never return to Heaven. Man is different. Because man has never seen God's kingdom, mankind can be redeemed after his fall. For a man to enter Hell....he must have committed a grave sin and is unrepentent of it and also knowingly reject God.




Well you don't recognize Aspen's 'interpretation' as RC teaching because it's not.

My brother, that is the reason why I asked. You do not need to quote the Catechism to me. :D
 

Foreigner

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Hell is not God's mercy. Hell is the end of God's mercy for those who spend eternity there.


- Duck is correct.


I leave for a few days to find that not only is Aspen still trying to peddle this, he felt the need to start a whole thread on the topic :lol:


Aspen said in another thread that he feels God is being 'merciful' by sending sinners to hell. They idea being that it would be more painful to be in God's presence as a sinner than to suffer in hell.


The problem is that he has absolutely no Scripture to support that idea.


The plethora of Scriptures that he provides have nothing to do with his claim and one - Matt 25 - actually CONTRADICTS him.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Please note:
1. They are just standing there FACE TO FACE with God, who has just informed them that they are going to hell along with the reasons why..


2. They speaking with the Lord conversationally, actually engaging in give-and-take conversation. Hardly something you could do if they are in complete torment.


Yet Aspen would have you believe that this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is worse for them than actually entering and dwelling in hell.


He would have you believe that the physical torment of hell, combined with the emotional pain of knowing you are seperated from God for all time, combined with the realization that it didn't have to be this way.... isn't as bad as being in God's presence as a sinner.

The only way for that to be accurate would be for Matt 25 to be wrong.


Oh, and one other thing: The majority of the scriptures he provides have to do with a person in their frail human form being exposed to God.

A person who dies will no longer be in their frail human body so that null and voids the concept he is trying to put forth.
 

Foreigner

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"Hello Aspen,

Is this your own interpretation of Hell? I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is God's mercy and Hell is separation from God.

In Christ,
Selene"



-- Purgatory is a concept not supported by scripture, either.
 

Templar81

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Are we talking about the kind of hell that evil doers and no-believers go to when they die now or following the final judgement.

In revelations John see's a lake of fire but this isnt called Hell in fact John tells us that death and Hell (Hades,depending on translation) were cast into it, so since scripture actually explicitley mentions a lake of fire then we must assume that it is the eternal abode of all those who will b denied entrance into the New Jerusalem.

The late Pope's opinion is shared by much of the Anglican Bishops as well but I am definately of the old school on this one. I do believe in Purgatory though and that it is merciful, as all the souls there are destined for Heaven afterwards. Hell is not merely the separation of a soul from God but the consequence of that separation e.g. if you eat lots of chocolate you get fat, if you smoke enough you get lung cancer and if you drink enough you get liver failure. These are just consequences so if a person sins and doesn't repent and doesn't believe in Jesus thenHell is the consequence of their behaviour, it is going to happen if something doesn't change.

Though my belief is of the old school I have to say that I wish Hell wasn't forever as eternal punnishment surely outweighs the sins that anyone could ever commit during their lifetime.

One of the Apocrpyhal Epsitles; the revelation of Peter talks all aobut Hell. It lists the punnishments for diffent categories of sinners but in it Christ tells Peter that if the souls in heaven look down on the souls in hell and have pitty on them, they will petition God and he will bring them up to Heaven. Thsi is of course a heretical book.
 

Foreigner

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"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt 25: 41


-- Jesus said this right after splitting those who stand in judgement into the sheep and the goats.

Notice it just 1.) Sheep and 2.) Goats.

There was no third group for the goat-like sheep who will spend a term in purgatory and then receive full "Sheep" status.

Having grown up Catholic I am sympathetic to the idea of Purgatory. Scriptures simply do not support the concept, however.
 

TexUs

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I fear this is a fruitless argument as evidenced by Selene's first post.
Is this your own interpretation of Hell? I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is God's mercy and Hell is separation from God.


When presented with a concept you haven't heard of, your first question is, "Is this a Catholic teaching?"

Instead of, "Is this Biblically supported?" or even at the very least "Does this make sense with what I know?" ??????????????? But no, the first question is, "Is this a Catholic teaching?"......




Unbelievable.



I say this is fruitless because until we get to a point where Biblical teaching is valued more than Catholic teaching (the above is proof it's not), it's just wheel-spinning.
 

Foreigner

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I have to go with Tex on this one.

One is left wondering why someone, anyone would put their faith in a teaching that is not supported by God's scriptures.

How would one truly know that what they believe is true? Do you really want to base your eternal beliefs on the teaching of men, unsupported by God's word?


Usually, when someone is pressed on this point, they reply, "The God I know would never....blah blah blah."

They are in essence ignoring what the Bible has said about God, His judgement, the warnings to those who add or subtract from scriptures, and even the degree of God's promised wrath mentioned in His Word.

Dangerous ground to be treading.
 

Robbie

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I believe our Father is full of mercy and grace so Him getting to a point where He casts someone into outer darkness must mean the person kooked it pretty hard... most definitely not somewhere I ever want to go... I always want to be as close to Him as possible...
 

Selene

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I fear this is a fruitless argument as evidenced by Selene's first post.


When presented with a concept you haven't heard of, your first question is, "Is this a Catholic teaching?"

Instead of, "Is this Biblically supported?" or even at the very least "Does this make sense with what I know?" ??????????????? But no, the first question is, "Is this a Catholic teaching?"......




Unbelievable.


I say this is fruitless because until we get to a point where Biblical teaching is valued more than Catholic teaching (the above is proof it's not), it's just wheel-spinning.

Excuse me.....but you were the one who cannot choose between God and the Bible.

With me, I believe what the Bible says. And the Bible SAYS that Christ is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH! I say "I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching" because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church. And if you do not believe that the Head of YOUR church is NOT Jesus Christ, then what good is that Bible you have when you cannot even believe what it says? And then you wonder why I say, "I do not recognize this as Catholic teaching"? I do not dismiss the Church, and when I say "Church" I am NOT speaking of a building.

The Bible says, that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Bible NEVER said that the "Bible" is the pillar and foundation of Truth. It says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (See 1 Timothy 3:15). Why? Because Christ is the Head of the Church. He is not Head of the Bible. There is no such thing as "Head of the Bible." Obviously, you do not believe that Christ is the Head of YOUR church nor do you believe that YOUR church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what good is having that Bible if you cannot believe what the Bible says about the Church?


I have to go with Tex on this one.

One is left wondering why someone, anyone would put their faith in a teaching that is not supported by God's scriptures.

How would one truly know that what they believe is true? Do you really want to base your eternal beliefs on the teaching of men, unsupported by God's word?

See my answer above to TexUs.
 

Foreigner

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Selene, I read your answer and it is - to say the least - lacking.

If the Catholic church is teaching things that are not scripturally supported and in some cases, go against what scriptures say then Jesus definitely ISN'T the head of the Catholic church. It really is that simple.


Saying that whatever the Catholic church holds as doctrine is correct because "Jesus is the head of the Catholic church" is specious at best.


If you cannot show scriptural support for a doctrine or belief, then it should be held suspect. Especially with a concept like Purgatory which runs contrary to actual scripture.


Again, you have nothing to prove that Jesus approves of that concept (or several others) so saying it is right because He is head of your church just.....doesn't.....fly.
 

aspen

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I am not quoting the Catechism - not sure why this is a surprise to anyone......I really cannot remember ever quoting the catechism or teaching catholic doctrine on this message board.
 

Foreigner

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But there are a number of others who have.

You profess to be a Catholic, have commented on several posts about Catholicism and do not refute any of the claims based on the Catechism.

That is a pretty good indicator you agree with it...no?

If not, then what exactly don't you agree with?
 

aspen

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But there are a number of others who have.

You profess to be a Catholic, have commented on several posts about Catholicism and do not refute any of the claims based on the Catechism.

That is a pretty good indicator you agree with it...no?

If not, then what exactly don't you agree with?

LOL

So since I haven't refuted catholic teachings your statement is accurate?

Give me a break