Sinners By Nature'

[soul man]

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) - Ephesians 2:1-5.

We call believers believers because they have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Another look at that and what we should see as believers is; believers were sinners by nature. What makes a sinner is not just because they sinned but because they had a sin nature. Sin is an attribute of the sin nature'. To say we were sinner's is a correction, but to say we were sinner's because we sinned is wrong. We were sinner's be NATURE' To say I still sin or have sin in my life because I'm a sinner is not true. Not if you're born again - you were a sinner saved grace but nolonger have a sin nature contrary to popular belief. What believers have is a mind problem or unrenewed mind that has all the aspects of a sin nature because that is what the mind lived with until the new birth. At the new birth when a person believes as the scriptures say "on the Lord Jesus Christ" they get born again. They don't receive a portion here and a portion there - not in spirit - spirit is complete with the completion Christ' the moment they believe.

I don't think some can believe that because you would have to change your whole notion on what it is a christian is. What do I mean by that? It means what you understand at the moment about scripture, salvation, Jesus Christ, and most of doctrine would have to change about believing. You here all the arguements for and against believing and receiving Christ' as your personal savior. What comes as a shock to some is it doesn't matter if you believe that or not - point being if you have ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ then you received a new life, new nature, all in the person the Lord Jesus Christ.

You get him (Christ' - the life of Christ - resurrected life of Christ') when you believe not just I'm saved and I'm going to heaven now. It needs to be a lifestyle of understanding the birthing and "the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11:12) is how that comes about. It is revealed to you that Jesus Christ is your life. It is a Spirit knowledge - knowing and revelation of the Christ' in you. We all know he is there but wonder what he is doing there. Simplest answer is; he is being your life and everything about you that makes you you, which is a christian. We should read and think the things of God through because what he has done and doing in a christian as a individual "no man can see it it has to be revealed." You know the scripture "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has prepared for them that love him."

It's true you are saved now and going to heaven but the fruit of that salvation should be 'Christ' Paul said. He said it straight and addressing the body of Christ when he said "it is Christ." Not like him not an imitation of Christ- but the literal eternal life of the believer 'is Christ'. Period, what comes out of that is going to depend on what you know. If you don't really care about that or still seeking that then lifestyle may just mean a whole lot less to you.

You can live any way you want if you would like to challenge your father to see how he handles his children it's your life (we believe anyway) and when you believe that you are believing a lie and find out your father knows perfectly how to handle children, his children. My experience is it is not pretty when you're father has had enough and you get into some form of correct because it will not be pleasurable. That shoots down all notion 'well you just believe you can live anyway you - if you believe that you can live anyway you want like you are still a sinner - your a fool and should try it. You have no life of your own. The only life you have is Christ'. Bless you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Soul man,
Good talk. Thanks.
I believe Paul argued in Romans 7 that, indeed, we continue to have a sin nature even as born again believers. However, in Romans 6 he also teaches us that as born again believers, we are no longer servants of sin; we are servants of righteousness. We are no longer slaves of sin, obligated to serve evil or to live licentiously. So I wholehearted agree with your exhortation to live in a manner worthy of the gospel.

 

[soul man]

Soul man,
Good talk. Thanks.
I believe Paul argued in Romans 7 that, indeed, we continue to have a sin nature even as born again believers. However, in Romans 6 he also teaches us that as born again believers, we are no longer servants of sin; we are servants of righteousness. We are no longer slaves of sin, obligated to serve evil or to live licentiously. So I wholehearted agree with your exhortation to live in a manner worthy of the gospel.

I fully understand what you say and because will still sin, even blatantly at times we still feel a need to give it credence. What I see in scripture is if a believer still had a sin nature there is no salvation. Christ is our salvation. Romans 7 is a retrospective look at the sin nature by the apostle Paul is my understanding. Paul could say what he was saying based on the fact he was in Christ looking at what made sinners. Sinners were made up of a sin nature, a soul created in the image and likeness of God (Adam was created a living soul in the image and likeness of God), and the possibility or designed (Adam) to contain spirit. Where Christ was to be the life. Adam chose and received life in his fall, it was the wrong life - what he received was "death life" according to scripture. Jesus killed out that seed life death nature on the cross. New life in a believer "is Christ." Old man out - new man in. New creations with a new nature. One nature at a time is all a human being can contain. The soul/mind is being renewed to the fact it has new life. Thank you for commenting.

 

[soul man]

Sinners cannot see they have a sin nature - all they see is the fruit of sin and have to past it off as them being a bad person, the world is a bad place with bad people, and so on. But the understanding does not give an answer to what causes sin. Believers can now look at Romans 7 and see why they lived the way they lived ,- they lived the way they lived because Paul so elegantly places sin in its place which is by a nature. Which passed away the moment Jesus died on the cross for those in Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I fully understand what you say and because will still sin, even blatantly at times we still feel a need to give it credence. What I see in scripture is if a believer still had a sin nature there is no salvation. Christ is our salvation. Romans 7 is a retrospective look at the sin nature by the apostle Paul is my understanding. Paul could say what he was saying based on the fact he was in Christ looking at what made sinners. Sinners were made up of a sin nature, a soul created in the image and likeness of God (Adam was created a living soul in the image and likeness of God), and the possibility or designed (Adam) to contain spirit. Where Christ was to be the life. Adam chose and received life in his fall, it was the wrong life - what he received was "death life" according to scripture. Jesus killed out that seed life death nature on the cross. New life in a believer "is Christ." Old man out - new man in. New creations with a new nature. One nature at a time is all a human being can contain. The soul/mind is being renewed to the fact it has new life. Thank you for commenting.

You're welcome. Consider. What is glorification if not the removal of our sin nature?

 

[marks]

a sin nature

Isn't what we call "sin nature" actually the effect of having a corrupted flesh body?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're welcome. Consider. What is glorification if not the removal of our sin nature?

Transformation into the likeness of Christ, I think. Those He justified He also glorified. I think that refers to the transformation of us from children of Adam to children of God, and the our future glorification will be the transformation of our bodies as the corruptible puts on incorruptability.

Much love!

 

[soul man]

Isn't what we call "sin nature" actually the effect of having a corrupted flesh body?

Much love!

We were corrupted by a seed Peter said. That seed is the sin nature. A sinner is not corrupted by what they do, they are corrupted by the corrupted seed according to Peter. Mind given to body constitutes flesh. When we choose to do whatever it is flesh wise it comes from mind out of body or manifest by body. Sinner are unregenerate - believers have a new nature with an old mind that acts out according to what it lived by when it lived with a sin nature. That is why it is still natural for believers to sin just about as easy as a sinner, but they do not have a sin nature it went out 'in Christ' on the cross. That is what we witness in the body of Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Transformation into the likeness of Christ, I think. Those He justified He also glorified. I think that refers to the transformation of us from children of Adam to children of God, and the our future glorification will be the transformation of our bodies as the corruptible puts on incorruptability.

Much love!

One of my teachers put it this way. "I'm not garbage. I'm like an expensive sports car. It's just that my steering is broken and I run over those that I love." Glorification is steering wheel fixed. Yes?

 

[marks]

One of my teachers put it this way. "I'm not garbage. I'm like an expensive sports car. It's just that my steering is broken and I run over those that I love." Glorification is steering wheel fixed. Yes?

Yep!

C.S. Lewis inspired me to say it this way . . . I'm an inexperienced pilot steering a wrecked ship. Hard to get to the destination, but Jesus has a way!

Much love!

 

[marks]

We were corrupted by a seed Peter said. That seed is the sin nature. A sinner is not corrupted by what they do, they are corrupted by the corrupted seed according to Peter. Mind given to body constitutes flesh. When we choose to do whatever it is flesh wise it comes from mind out of body or manifest by body. Sinner are unregenerate - believers have a new nature with an old mind that acts out according to what it lived by when it lived with a sin nature. That is why it is still natural for believers to sin just about as easy as a sinner, but they do not have a sin nature it went out 'in Christ' on the cross. That is what we witness in the body of Christ.

I think Peter said that we are born again by incorruptible, not corruptible seed, which is not the same thing as saying we are corrupted by a seed.

I would disagree, that while I believe we are born corrupted in our body and brains, yielding a corrupt mind, I also think that the choices we make, and the things we do can also have their corrupting influence as we form our brains based around our behavior.

We are born with corruption and we aquire corruption.

I think that when Adam made the choice to disobey God that this forever influenced how he looked at his life, as he then attempted to sort everything according to a moral judgment. "I was naked, so I hid."

The child of God is reborn a new creation, but the old man still exists, body, brain, mind, feelings, all that. Only we're not him anymore.

Much love!

 

[soul man]

I think Peter said that we are born again by incorruptible, not corruptible seed, which is not the same thing as saying we are corrupted by a seed.

I would disagree, that while I believe we are born corrupted in our body and brains, yielding a corrupt mind, I also think that the choices we make, and the things we do can also have their corrupting influence as we form our brains based around our behavior.

We are born with corruption and we aquire corruption.

I think that when Adam made the choice to disobey God that this forever influenced how he looked at his life, as he then attempted to sort everything according to a moral judgment. "I was naked, so I hid."

The child of God is reborn a new creation, but the old man still exists, body, brain, mind, feelings, all that. Only we're not him anymore.

Much love!

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. - 1 Peter 1:23.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. - Genesis 3:15.

Is there a particular word that you would give 'thee' and the 'woman' - two seeds. Is there a word you can use for these particular verses referring to 'enmity'. We know we have the incorruptible' referred to in Peter. What would the incorruptible replace? in 'being born again' as Peter suggests.

Peter says the 'born again' have the incorruptible seed - what is the other seed that is in mankind at birth?

 

[marks]

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. - 1 Peter 1:23.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. - Genesis 3:15.

Is there a particular word that you would give 'thee' and the 'woman' - two seeds. Is there a word you can use for these particular verses referring to 'enmity'. We know we have the incorruptible' referred to in Peter. What would the incorruptible replace? in 'being born again' as Peter suggests.

Peter says the 'born again' have the incorruptible seed - what is the other seed that is in mankind at birth?

There is no Scripture I can think of that talks about a "corruptible seed", so I don't really know what to say here.

The seed we've received, the Living Word, is incorruptible, that is clearly stated. What I find is corruptible, in the Bible, is my body, the flesh, "the corruptible will put on incorruptibility."

This seed is ingrafted, added to what is already there, as I see it. Rendering us with having the old man, and the new man.

Much love!

 

[soul man]

There is no Scripture I can think of that talks about a "corruptible seed", so I don't really know what to say here.

The seed we've received, the Living Word, is incorruptible, that is clearly stated. What I find is corruptible, in the Bible, is my body, the flesh, "the corruptible will put on incorruptibility."

This seed is ingrafted, added to what is already there, as I see it. Rendering us with having the old man, and the new man.

Much love!

Correct, what word would you use to discribe the seed 'thee' ?

 

[marks]

Correct, what word would you use to discribe the seed 'thee' ?

You're talking about "serpent seed"?

Much love!

 

[soul man]

You're talking about "serpent seed"?

Much love!

Excuse me 'thy seed' ? Genesis 3:15.

 

[marks]

Correct, what word would you use to discribe the seed 'thee' ?

I don't really understand what you are asking me, I'm sorry!

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Soul man, thank you for sharing. Here are some my own thoughts and observation please note it is possible for me to make mistakes, please check to see what is being said is true, anyone whom may read this.

It is true - me as a Christian today am still a sinner saved by grace : having understood all of what Jesus Christ presented through his ministry. From me in the experience of my life being a person to manipulate others for my own gain, being greedy, hateful towards myself, family, and others, Lustful for my neighbors wife, coveting what other people have, have been mentally abusive to others in my past life as well, including that of my mom.

These things really broken me down in understanding from Christ Jesus that it seems to me I am never going to be good enough in this life because having already made all of these mistakes of missing the mark of what the Lord Christ Jesus came to present us, and to shape us into his image rather and die to ourselves.

Which causes the flesh to die, when learning scriptures like for example Colossians 3: Where it tells you to put to death your former ways: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. : See our flesh naturally desires to be this way, but the spirit is contrary from what anything in the world provide : which is the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

A believer who is seeking the truth in God and the Lord Jesus Christ will be transformed into a new creation and the former way slowly die - though they (the flesh is still apart of us) - might still be there to tempt you to go back and do ~ Though if a person does go and slides back, they will have deal with their own shame/guilt or whatever if those things come up in a believers life, that plagues their heart.

Sin has to do with unbelief : And also all of these things: That dwell inside of the heart.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

By being reborn - walking in truth - having a prayer relationship with God ~ You can be set free from the bondage of the things listed above by and though the spirit of Christ/Holy spirit of God ~ That lives with-in you and by actively living in faith, and in hope of the promises of God.

The spirit provides: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[soul man]

I don't really understand what you are asking me, I'm sorry!

Much love!

What would you see as thy seed, what would you label it for lack of a better word. Corruptible is what I see it as, is there anything you see and what would you call it ?

 

[marks]

What would you see as thy seed, what would you label it for lack of a better word. Corruptible is what I see it as, is there anything you see and what would you call it ?

OK, I understand, thank you!

Corruptible or corrupted or something else, I don't know. I like to stick with Biblical terminology.

If we were comparing apples and apples, the incorruptible seed is the Living Word of God. Jesus is called the Word, and His presence in us saves us and recreates us. But it's not His seed, He is the seed. Unless the seed die, and go into the ground . . . And, His Word is the seed.

Much love!