Evil Spirit... From God?

[TexUs]

Oh how the OT reveals things about the nature and works of God that we don't understand just sticking to the NT ;)


1 Samuel 16:23. I do suggest you read the entire passage to know what's going on, but here's the pertinent passage.
And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.


The Hebrew being, "evil".


Who wants to comment first? ;)

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Oh how the OT reveals things about the nature and works of God that we don't understand just sticking to the NT ;)


1 Samuel 16:23. I do suggest you read the entire passage to know what's going on, but here's the pertinent passage.
And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.


The Hebrew being, "evil".


Who wants to comment first? ;)

God controls ALL....even angels, both good AND evil.


Jud. 9
[23] Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Here is another example...

1 Kings 22
[20] And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

It is God that gave permission. Only then could the angel go and do what God needed to be done.

God made angels to do HIs will, and sometimes HIs will is to change minds, destroy nations, teach lessons.

Notice even Satan does not have complete control although he is called the god of this earth.....

Job 1
[8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And was Satan able to just have his way with Job?. Let's read....

[12] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


Just as God uses angels, He also uses man. Let's read...

God called King Nebuchadrezzar His servant....

Jer.25
[9] Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

And who was it that God used to deliver Jesus to His captors?

Matt.10
[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Can you just imagin this world if God did not give Satan and his angels some sort of bounderies to operate within, keeping them under some sort of control!

LOOKS LIKE EVEN SATAN HAS SOME SORT OF RULES HE IS OBLIGATED TO KEEP!






.

 

[bud02]

Oh how the OT reveals things about the nature and works of God that we don't understand just sticking to the NT ;)

1 Samuel 16:23. I do suggest you read the entire passage to know what's going on, but here's the pertinent passage.
And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.


The Hebrew being, "evil".

Who wants to comment first? ;)

1] First off David was anointed by Samuel, and the Spirit came upon him.
2] the next verse tells us the Spirit departed from Saul
3] God is allowing Saul to be reprimanded, What happens when God lifts His hand from men, Job?
4] the presents and praise from David "in the true Spirit" cause the distressing spirit to diminish, Saul is hitching a ride on Davids anointing.

[sup]1[/sup] Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons.”......................................................................
[sup]

13[/sup] Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah.
A Distressing Spirit Troubles Saul

[sup]14[/sup] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. [sup]15[/sup] And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. [sup]16[/sup] Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.”
[sup]17[/sup] So Saul said to his servants, “Provide me now a man who can play well, and bring him to me.”
[sup]18[/sup] Then one of the servants answered and said, “Look, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a mighty man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a handsome person; and the LORD is with him.”
[sup]19[/sup] Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse, and said, “Send me your son David, who is with the sheep.” [sup]20[/sup] And Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine, and a young goat, and sent them by his son David to Saul. [sup]21[/sup] So David came to Saul and stood before him. And he loved him greatly, and he became his armorbearer. [sup]22[/sup] Then Saul sent to Jesse, saying, “Please let David stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight.” [sup]23[/sup] And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him.

 

[TexUs]

Jud. 9
[23] Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Here is another example...

1 Kings 22
[20] And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

It is God that gave permission.

I don't think one can read these and simply come away with God "giving" permission.

LOOKS LIKE EVEN SATAN HAS SOME SORT OF RULES HE IS OBLIGATED TO KEEP!

I agree. I don't think Satan can do anything without permission from God anyway, look at Job... Satan asked, "Can I do this?".


But I don't think we get that sense from the passage I quoted (nor yours)... God was seemingly the sender, the initiator, where the spirit came from. There's no sense of a spirit simply being "allowed" by God.

1] First off David was anointed by Samuel, and the Spirit came upon him.
2] the next verse tells us the Spirit departed from Saul
3] God is allowing Saul to be reprimanded, What happens when God lifts His hand from men, Job?
4] the presents and praise from David "in the true Spirit" cause the distressing spirit to diminish, Saul is hitching a ride on Davids anointing.

[sup]1[/sup] Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons.”......................................................................
[sup]

13[/sup] Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah.
A Distressing Spirit Troubles Saul

[sup]14[/sup] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. [sup]15[/sup] And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. [sup]16[/sup] Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.”
[sup]17[/sup] So Saul said to his servants, “Provide me now a man who can play well, and bring him to me.”
[sup]18[/sup] Then one of the servants answered and said, “Look, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a mighty man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a handsome person; and the LORD is with him.”
[sup]19[/sup] Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse, and said, “Send me your son David, who is with the sheep.” [sup]20[/sup] And Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine, and a young goat, and sent them by his son David to Saul. [sup]21[/sup] So David came to Saul and stood before him. And he loved him greatly, and he became his armorbearer. [sup]22[/sup] Then Saul sent to Jesse, saying, “Please let David stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight.” [sup]23[/sup] And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him.

Yes, bud, that's explains what's going on but says nothing to what my point was... The evil spirit FROM God.

 

[bud02]

I agree that it is a very unique story. Saul was raised up by God because of the pleas of the people. Saul had the HS upon him but it was removed. That is the unique part.

I remember mentioning Balaam heres a truthful quote

Balaam stands in infamy as the paragon of apostasy. His worldly lusts lured him into the power of Baal and brought upon him the ultimate symbol of pastoral asininity, a reprimand from his donkey. Through his counseling Israel fell for the bait of Baal, the alluring Midianite women, and brought upon the Client Nation a national curse.

Can we see a similar story in Saul? Saul did not follow the Lords / Samuel command about Agag and the over turning of his kingdom. Was the Angel standing before the donkey a distressing spirit? I would say so. And what did Balaam do as soon as he shown the Angel and his error. The same thing Saul did when he pleaded with Samuel. But did that change Balaam's heart towards the children of Israel? No. He was to interested in getting paid just as Saul was to interested in keeping the spoils of Agag. Latter Israel was lead astray by Balaams advice, just as Israel would later years later have to deal with Sauls failure to do as the Lord had told him.

the text affirms in several places that the Amalekites were not wiped out. David raids Amalekite towns (ch 27). Amalekite armies attack Ziklag, David pursues them, fights against them, defeats them and 200 horseman escape (ch 30) and so on. The Amalekites are recorded as still being a threat at the time of Hezekiah and Haman is said to be an Agagite in the book of Esther. Taken literally these other passages tell us that the Amalekites were not totally destroyed .

 

[TexUs]

I think you're missing the question.

The evil spirit was sent FROM God. It wasn't simply a removal of the HS but an adding on of another evil spirit from God.
Eccl posted some more verses dealing with this.

So apparently, God can direct evil into our path, yes?

 

[bud02]

I think you're missing the question.

The evil spirit was sent FROM God. It wasn't simply a removal of the HS but an adding on of another evil spirit from God.
Eccl posted some more verses dealing with this.

So apparently, God can direct evil into our path, yes?

C/P from my reply
Can we see a similar story in Saul? Saul did not follow the Lords / Samuel command about Agag and the over turning of his kingdom. Was the Angel standing before the donkey a distressing spirit? I would say so. This Balaams donkey.

The Lord opposed both Balaam and Saul is that so hard to see. What about the Angels that were sent to guard the tree of life were they opposing or distressing spirits to who ever tried to approach? Just the same as Balaam was the Angel of the Lord standing with a sword opposing Balaam a distressing or opposing spirit? yes. Even though Saul was dispatched by the Lord and Samuel from his being king, he did not step aside. So the Lord apposed him.

edit;
In the same manor we see a similar thing that takes place on this forum the Angel of the Lord opposes some, then we see the same thing like Balaam to his donkey "that sees" the beating or the accusal by the Balaams that your not doing as I asked, your not of the Lords Spirit because you disagree. When in reality the donkey knows the truth. Are you a Balaam? Or are you seeking the Lord?

 

[Vengle53]

C/P from my reply
Can we see a similar story in Saul? Saul did not follow the Lords / Samuel command about Agag and the over turning of his kingdom. Was the Angel standing before the donkey a distressing spirit? I would say so. This Balaams donkey.

The Lord opposed both Balaam and Saul is that so hard to see. What about the Angels that were sent to guard the tree of life were they opposing or distressing spirits to who ever tried to approach? Just the same as Balaam was the Angel of the Lord standing with a sword opposing Balaam a distressing or opposing spirit? yes. Even though Saul was dispatched by the Lord and Samuel from his being king, he did not step aside. So the Lord apposed him.

edit;
In the same manor we see a similar thing that takes place on this forum the Angel of the Lord opposes some, then we see the same thing like Balaam to his donkey "that sees" the beating or the accusal by the Balaams that your not doing as I asked, your not of the Lords Spirit because you disagree. When in reality the donkey knows the truth. Are you a Balaam? Or are you seeking the Lord?

What has always perturbed me is when men use Isaiah 45:7 to claim that God creates ALL Evil. That idea flies against the context not only of chapter 45 but also the next chapter's context.

There is an account in 1 Kings chapter 22 and 2 Chronicles chapter 18 that sheds some light on how God operates against the disobedience of his anointed ones (and perhaps against the wickedness of others, also):

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Yet, I do believe God uses his power over even the truly evil spirits to utilize them for his purpose and to the ultimate good of his loyal ones. The hooks in the jaws of Gog and Magog is a portrayal of how it is God is forcing Satan to complete his evil course in these end times in accord with God's purpose.

 

[bud02]

Thank you for the additional perspective Grace Job 33:14

Lets learn from the story of Balaam. Balaams donkey had eyes to see, and even after Balaam's eyes were opened to see and he bowed to the ground, he went on to appose the hand of the Lord leading Israel. By corrupting them from within. Those are not fit for the kingdom of God. The same was true for Saul.

Moral of the story, Matthew 22:14 not everyone that is called is chosen.

 

[Vengle53]

Thank you for the additional perspective Grace Job 33:14

Lets learn from the story of Balaam. Balaams donkey had eyes to see, and even after Balaam's eyes were opened to see and he bowed to the ground, he went on to appose the hand of the Lord leading Israel. By corrupting them from within. Those are not fit for the kingdom of God. The same was true for Saul.

Moral of the story, Matthew 22:14 not everyone that is called is chosen.

Fascinating !!!

When I think about it I sense a correlation even to God's being said to cause the blindness of the Jews.

 

[bud02]

Fascinating !!!

When I think about it I sense a correlation even to God's being said to cause the blindness of the Jews.

Very good observation. As well I see it applying to individuals today as well.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Very good observation. As well I see it applying to individuals today as well.

For whatever reason, God does not allow ALL to receive His truth.

2 Thes. 2
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It could be........

At some point, God's knows that all will NOT obey and they will refuse to accept HIs truth. At that point He sends them a strong delusion, that they will believe a lie!

Or.......

It could be to save them! If they do not know something is wrong, how can He hold them accountable at judgement?

Only God knows!



.

 

[Vengle53]

It could be to save them! If they do not know something is wrong, how can He hold them accountable at judgement?

Only God knows!

That is a good point.

My gut says there is more to it than that but your comment has stimulated me to think concerning it.

You may be responsible for keeping me up tonight !!! :blink:

 

[TexUs]

It could be to save them! If they do not know something is wrong, how can He hold them accountable at judgement?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.


Creation points to the glory of the one who made it.

 

[Vengle53]

[font="Georgia][i]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.[/i][/font]
[font="Georgia][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Georgia][size="2"]Creation points to the glory of the one who made it.[/size][/font]
[font="Georgia][/font]

That is another very good point. Now, how do we balance these things?

Is there even any value to us to consider it?

Can we simply write off thinking about it and say that it is God's territory to judge?

I don't watch much TV, only bought one recently and use only rabbit ears. But after my last post I turned it on and a scene of girls dancing on poles was thrown in my face. I turned it immediately off and thought to myself that what I had just seen was the max of humans parading themselves like gods that others should find adorable and mesmerizing.

That made me think about what it is like to talk the word to such persons that have a deep love of those things. My experience with most of them has been that might even be nice to your face but afterward turn and mock you.

I am not one that believes God will pardon us for choosing the love of those things over him. Even if we quit doing those things because we got old could not do them any more and then turned to God, even then, only he knows whether we yet would if we could do those things. We cannot fool him as to what we really love.

 

[TexUs]

That is another very good point. Now, how do we balance these things?

Is there even any value to us to consider it?

Can we simply write off thinking about it and say that it is God's territory to judge?

Balance what things?

Simply what I posted tells me this: God is in control. Creation points to him, he can open people's eyes to this fact if he so chooses.

Nobody seeks God on their own. He must open their eyes.

I disagree with Eccl's usage of 2 Thes 2, but look at it, "they refused to love the truth". That means they've had at least some amount of taste of it. At least cognitively. But they turn from it (see Hebrews 10:26+). They were never saved to start with, but they had some amount of taste of the truth but turn from it. Hebrews is clear when this happens: there's nothing else that can be done for them. They've seen and tasted the truth: what else COULD possibly be done for them? I think 2 Thes 2 tells us what happens, since this is the case, God will keep them in a delusion.

In both cases, again: God is in control. He can open people's eyes to the truth or he can keep them closed.

 

[Vengle53]

Balance what things?

Simply what I posted tells me this: God is in control. Creation points to him, he can open people's eyes to this fact if he so chooses.

Nobody seeks God on their own. He must open their eyes.

I disagree with Eccl's usage of 2 Thes 2, but look at it, "they refused to love the truth". That means they've had at least some amount of taste of it. At least cognitively. But they turn from it (see Hebrews 10:26+). They were never saved to start with, but they had some amount of taste of the truth but turn from it. Hebrews is clear when this happens: there's nothing else that can be done for them. They've seen and tasted the truth: what else COULD possibly be done for them? I think 2 Thes 2 tells us what happens, since this is the case, God will keep them in a delusion.

In both cases, again: God is in control. He can open people's eyes to the truth or he can keep them closed.

Yes, I tend to agree with your view.

I also know you are not in any way implying that God cannot break down individuals of them like dashing a clay vessel to remold. But as you say, God is in control. God gives them the choice to cooperate with that regeneration or not.

 

[TexUs]

I also know you are not in any way implying that God cannot break down individuals of them like dashing a clay vessel to remold.

I think he can and does do that but I don't think that's whose in the scope of these passages... I don't see any further or possible move to repentance after these instances.

 

[[email protected]]

God does not 'give permission' for bad things to happen, including the actions of satan, demons, unclean spirits and humans.

He COMMANDS it.

God is sovereign upon His throne. Nothing and no one can act without His awareness and His righteous decree.

The problem with satan and humanity is that we don't agree with the situation.

 

[TexUs]

God does not 'give permission' for bad things to happen, including the actions of satan, demons, unclean spirits and humans.

He COMMANDS it.

God is sovereign upon His throne. Nothing and no one can act without His awareness and His righteous decree.

The problem with satan and humanity is that we don't agree with the situation.

Finally someone that thinks as I do ;)

Now I'd like to hear your take on this...
When the Bible says God can't sin, but he creates and ordains the means for it... How do you reconcile that?