John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

[Ferris Bueller]

Sorry but the triune formula of baptism di dnot come into being until at least 3 yearts after Jesus told Nicodemus He has to be born of water and the spirit!

I was not suggesting in any way shape or form that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he had to be baptized by Jesus in that moment for him to be born again, or anew, so he could see and enter into the kingdom.

 

[GracePeace]

The converse is that those who have been born again cannot be "unborn", just as an infant cannot be returned to his mother's womb. And this is one more reason to believe in the eternal security of the believer.

I don't want to get into it here but I would have to follow Deuteronomy 32:5 and say we can be "unborn".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So "He will baptize you in Spirit and fire"... is fire different from the Spirit or didn't the disciples have tongues of fire when they were baptized with the Spirit? Isn't God a consuming fire and the Spirit is the Spirit of God the consuming fire? Come on, man, it's so obvious.

You might have me mixed up with someone else. I haven't said that Jesus' baptism is somehow not the fire of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL So why did the disciples have tongues on fire on Pentecost when they were baptized in the Spirit?

how is tongues of fire being baptized (immersed) into fire?

I think you need to look up the greek baptizo.. you seem to be taking the religious defenition. and not understanding what the actual word means.

The gift of tongues came as a result of being anointed by the spirit. Not baptized by the spirit.

Baptism precedes anointing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the majority of humanity knows nothing about a supernatural regeneration. But it is an absolute essential in order to both enter and to see the Kingdom of God.

What is NOT essential is that a man be born a natural Jew to enter into the kingdom of God. That's ultimately why I discarded the argument that 'water' is referring to Nicodemus' natural birth as a Jew. Though it seems to have merit at first. The Jews thinking their natural birth into the 'kingdom' of God (Israel) is enough will teach. It's a good topic, but I just don't see that particular topic being addressed by Jesus, at least directly, in the passage.

 

[Enoch111]

The Jews thinking their natural birth into the 'kingdom' of God (Israel) is enough will teach.

When Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that God could raise children of Abraham from the stones (Lk 3:8), He dealt with that issue. So being born a Jew is irrelevant.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't want to get into it here but I would have to follow Deuteronomy 32:5 and say we can be "unborn".

Sorry but being unborn is a spiritual impossibility, just like it is a physical impossibility. And that verse would not really apply, since it alludes to the unsaved.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yes He is called the Spirit of Truth. Why" because He proceeds from THE TRUTH who is Jesus and bears witness of THE Truth. but the SPIRIT is never called teh TRUTH. there is aq big difference in those .

Ya'll are taking this way too far.
Does the Holy Spirit even have a name? Not to my knowledge....He is a representative of God and Jesus.
He represents every aspect about them and promotes the Truth of His Word to us.
Jesus said this:
John 16 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹² I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
¹⁴ He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
¹⁵ All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[GracePeace]

Sorry but being unborn is a spiritual impossibility, just like it is a physical impossibility. And that verse would not really apply, since it alludes to the unsaved.

I don't want to get into it (it's off topic) but I did cite the verse "they are no longer His Children" Deuteronomy 32:5. I may have a thread for it.

 

[GracePeace]

how is tongues of fire being baptized (immersed) into fire?

I think you need to look up the greek baptizo.. you seem to be taking the religious defenition. and not understanding what the actual word means.

The gift of tongues came as a result of being anointed by the spirit. Not baptized by the spirit.

Baptism precedes anointing.

God is a consuming fire, they were immersed in the Spirit of God the consuming fire--one and the same baptism.

 

[GracePeace]

And that verse would not really apply, since it alludes to the unsaved.

1. 1 Corinthians 10 says it does apply because it was written for us, and 2 Timothy 3:15 says the Scriptures teach us about the faith in Christ.
2. Deuteronomy 14:1 says "you are children of the LORD" yet Deuteronomy 32:5 says "they are no longer His Children" and this dynamic (where His children can be rendered "no longer His Children" because of sin "they are corrupt") still is in play in the NT.

 

[ChristisGod]

God is a consuming fire, they were immersed in the Spirit of God the consuming fire--one and the same baptism.

Yet Jesus full of the Holy Spirit without measure never spoke in tongues.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

but I do noknow that when words are used symbolically- they are used that way throughout Scripture. So when seas or waters are used symbolically it is always gentiles.

So 'born of water' means 'born of gentiles'?

Oh, wait, that's right. You say the 'water' is literally the water inside the womb. Don't you think it kind of goes without saying that one must be born from the womb (and be born of the Spirit) to inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But we are not talking about flesh gives birth to flesh- we arew talking about being born of water.

Now you're confusing me. Didn't you say that 'born of water' is referring to being born from the womb, and that is flesh giving birth to flesh?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, again, "water... this He spoke of the Spirit" is in the same book, I don't need to go anywhere else.

....but it's also the Word, too, right?

 

[GracePeace]

....but it's also the Word, too, right?

It seems the two are tightly bound together. "My Words are Spirit".
Jesus, the Word : "I am the Truth".
1 John 5 : "the Spirit is the Truth".

The "living water" seems to be the Words of the Spirit.

With all this, it is acknowledged that the Word and the Spirit are distinct... yet inseparable.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It seems the two are tightly bound together. "My Words are Spirit".
Jesus, the Word : "I am the Truth".
1 John 5 : "the Spirit is the Truth".

The "living water" seems to be the Words of the Spirit.

With all this, it is acknowledged that the Word and the Spirit are distinct... yet inseparable.

So a person must be born of the word and the Spirit, and the Spirit? Surely you can see the problems that are created when you say it isn't enough that one is born of the word, but that one must be born of the word and the Spirit when the word and the Spirit are one and the same thing.

 

[GracePeace]

No, I've gotten far too many revelations from the plain words of scripture that the church has missed, even though these revelations are right under their noses, too. Tithing is a good example. Not whether we should or not, but how tithing was actually done in the old covenant. You'd be amazed how badly the church has messed that up and deceived countless numbers of people about how to tithe. And yet the plain words of how to do it are right under our big fat denominational noses for everyone to see.....if they'll just read them for themselves.

Right, well, you've expressed your view, and I've expressed my rejection of it as a "revelation", so we've taken that as far as it is going to go it seems.

 

[GracePeace]

So a person must be born of the word and the Spirit, and the Spirit? Surely you can see the problems that are created when you say it isn't enough that one is born of the word, but that one must be born of the word and the Spirit when the word and the Spirit are one and the same thing.

Word and Spirit. No problem. Scripture attests to it. "born of incorruptible Seed... Word of God". "born of... Spirit".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Right, well, you've expressed your view, and I've expressed my rejection of it as a "revelation", so we've taken that as far as it is going to go it seems.

You mean you don't like my revelation? You sure know how to hurt a guy.